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> TM's and Cyber, does this work?
crizh
post Nov 5 2008, 07:05 PM
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So, I'm twiddling with a TM using karmagen and I'm thinking of getting a small amount of cyber.

Is there any reason I can't get a Simsense Booster?

I had assumed I would find some text banning the combo but I can't find it...
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Malachi
post Nov 5 2008, 07:12 PM
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You take a hit on your max Resonance, which is a natural "balancer" for mixing 'ware and TM abilities. The only reason (fluff-wise) that I can think of for not allowing it is that the way a TM's brain interprets Simsense is not compatible with the way the Booster is designed to work. However, I think the Resonance/Essence hit is enough in my mind to balance the 'ware.
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Ryu
post Nov 5 2008, 08:24 PM
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I would prefer to shore up weaknesses with the limited "essence budget" instead, but TMs should be able to use all augmentations, without special restrictions beyond the resonance loss. In this case, at a cost of 65k¥ + very likely -18 karma (lost resonance 6), waiting for submersion for the same effect is very tempting.
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crizh
post Nov 5 2008, 08:29 PM
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Good point. Especially if Submersion is allowed during karmagen.

The other thing I was considering is Type O System and a metric shit ton of Bio.
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Ryu
post Nov 5 2008, 09:04 PM
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I´m not convinced of Type-O generally. 30 BP of well-choosen positive qualities and (worst-case) half the implants will usually be better.

Submersion/Initiation at chargen was a clear positive for our group, but watch out for munchkin mages and TMs.
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crizh
post Nov 5 2008, 09:09 PM
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Trouble with Type-O is the massive Availability Rating of most Bio. You could stuff tonnes of it in if only you could afford it and it was actually available at chargen.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 5 2008, 09:13 PM
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One COULD argue, that Technomancers are different than most people and Mr. O(wen?) was probably not a Technomancer, so one could say it does not work . . but that's just semantics.
and bio isn't all that good for hacking things anyway or is it? wouldn't some way to get higher grade cyber cheap for less essence better?
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Tarantula
post Nov 6 2008, 04:12 PM
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Yeah, for twinking out a TM, I tend to go with biocompatability (cyber) and go to town. Restricted gear and adapsin for even better results.
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Drogos
post Nov 6 2008, 04:28 PM
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Wouldn't the mage standby of Trauma Dampener/Platelet Factories rock even harder on a TM though? Or maybe I'm just confused on how to work TMs (I looked at build costs and went EWww, so I haven't really worked them out).
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AllTheNothing
post Nov 6 2008, 04:31 PM
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Type-O is something the character is born with, type-O bioware is considered very similar to body's own biological material so it integrates with minimal disraption but still essence loss (and the related resonance loss) happens. The fact that Mr. O. was not a 'mancer doesn't have any relevance, cloned type-O spare parts implanted on people do not cause essence loss, bioware doeas because of metabolical changes and stuff.
For the question if simsense booster can be applied to 'mancers I would say no, DNI allowes the comlink to be interfaced to the brain, simsense booster is an improved interface that allowes better interface betwen brain and 'link but TM very brain is the 'link, does it need something to interface to itself? No. Simsense booster would just mess resonance up, unless the 'mancer chooses to use a comlink than in that case (and only when using the 'link) it would work; not worth the essence loss IMO.
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AllTheNothing
post Nov 6 2008, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Drogos @ Nov 6 2008, 05:28 PM) *
Wouldn't the mage standby of Trauma Dampener/Platelet Factories rock even harder on a TM though? Or maybe I'm just confused on how to work TMs (I looked at build costs and went EWww, so I haven't really worked them out).



EWww?
I would just rule that due TM very prticular neural activity headware impacts them more than normal doubling the essence cost.
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Tarantula
post Nov 6 2008, 04:40 PM
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No, trauma damp/platelet factories, while nice for everyone, are not the "OMG AWESOME!112!@1" for TMs that they can be for mages.

As far a RAW goes... TM loses essence (and therefore resonance) and get an extra IP in vr.
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Drogos
post Nov 6 2008, 05:52 PM
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Can I ask why? I mean, they take dra....er....fading from threading and summ....er...compiling/registering. And they also don't take Matrix damage to a persona, it all goes directly on top of all the rest of their body. It seems like it'd be a damn good reason to sink a little essence for it. Of course, I understand very little about TMs.
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Tarantula
post Nov 6 2008, 06:19 PM
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The fading they take from threading isn't really all that much to worry about. And compiling/registering can pretty much always be done in advance too. Basically, they don't need it because they don't take damage as they fight, they take it to prep for the fight. So they're in the same boat as everyone else, of, its nice to take a little less damage in combat, and not the mages boat of its nice to be able to cast a helluva lot more in combat.
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Drogos
post Nov 6 2008, 06:33 PM
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Ahh, I see. I guess I wasn't thinking about the whole timing issues in comparison. Still be nice in combat when you thread that attack program up to a 12 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Rasumichin
post Nov 6 2008, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Nov 6 2008, 05:38 PM) *
EWww?
I would just rule that due TM very prticular neural activity headware impacts them more than normal doubling the essence cost.


Why?

Augmenting a TM is a difficult thing in the first place as Resonance is more important to them than Magic is to a mage.
They are almost always made of utmost suck outside of the matrix, while any well-built hacker can easily be constructed to be a decent secondary combatant.
Even within the matrix, a TM's player has to deliberately powergame to live up to the expectations- or pile up massive amounts of karma, while the hacker is competent from the very start of the game.
Clamping down even harder on them just seems unfair from a balancing perspective.

From a realism point of view, doubling the cost seems problematic as well.
TM's powers are based on the specific nature of their bioelectric field (or somesuch similar technobabbel), which is why Resonance is linked to Essence in the first place.
By your reasoning, non-neural 'ware like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor should not impact their abilities at all.

Fortunately, RAW doesn't bother with any of that.
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GreyBrother
post Nov 8 2008, 05:51 PM
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Well, you have to cut through some parts of the nervous system which is the source of the unique status of the TMs bioelectric field (it's his antenna)
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AllTheNothing
post Nov 8 2008, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Nov 8 2008, 06:51 PM) *
Well, you have to cut through some parts of the nervous system which is the source of the unique status of the TMs bioelectric field (it's his antenna)



That exactly my point, other ware creates disturbance by altering the normal biological balance of the body, while headware messes directly with the biocomputer's cpu (the brain) impacting it in a much worse way than it would on non-TM subjects for the simple reason that there is a whole lot of neural activity that other people don't have.
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Rasumichin
post Nov 9 2008, 12:45 AM
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Even though this might remotely make sense (as far as a concept like "holistic integrity" [which is not that logical in the first place] is concerned), the game balance question, as well as the style question, still remains.

Balance wise, i think i've made my point clear.
TMs are in the least disadvantaged compared to hackers, at least until you've either met their karma sink requirements -at a point in the game where other character types are already taking of to godlike levels- or have managed to turn them into a walking rules exploit (which is still a point i've not seen convincing evidence of, in spite of TM specific rules apparently full of exploit potential).
So any aditional punishment seems particularly unwarranted in their case.

Stylewise, many people already argue that it is not particularly fair that a character type naturally interacting with technology is punished by implanting cyberware more than any other character in the game- and in the case of a TM, if there's anything that just makes sense as an augmentation for them, it's headware.
So again, doubling the Essence penalty is one of the least sensible suggested houserules i've encountered to date.
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GreyBrother
post Nov 9 2008, 10:48 PM
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*headscratch* Fluffwise it has been explained. Quite good, IMHO, but the overall "TM loses essence" etc is just... dunno. not exactly what i would call a bummer, since SR3 Otaku had penalties for Headware too, if i remember correct. Something along the lines "Yeah, if you take that nice +2 Intelligence Stuff you have +2 Intelligence, except when you use your Otaku abilities, then you reduce your effective intelligence by 2."

The whole "TMs talk to Machines, they shouldn't be punished for having cyber" is just... why shouldn't they? Cyberware is something very invasive to your body and your body is what you use to talk to machines.

Balancetechnical... well... dunno about the exact numbers (didn't care much about balance) but even if the fluff said "Everything important to Resonance is located in the brain" you'd have to define exactly which cyberware had an impact on everything...
Okay, i recognize that i should got to bed and think a little bit about it.

Anyway, i just realized some days ago that, although i really like the TMs Style, that the rules could need a redesign.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 9 2008, 11:00 PM
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uh, no, i don't think otaku get punished for cyber at all . . they just can't use some of it to push their otaku abilities at all . . kinda like a technomancer can't use an external comlink to upgrade his own persona, if he is not using the regular hacking skills . . otaku had to start with a datajack after all . . and that's headware right?
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Cabral
post Nov 9 2008, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Nov 9 2008, 06:48 PM) *
*headscratch* Fluffwise it has been explained. Quite good, IMHO, but the overall "TM loses essence" etc is just... dunno. not exactly what i would call a bummer, since SR3 Otaku had penalties for Headware too, if i remember correct. Something along the lines "Yeah, if you take that nice +2 Intelligence Stuff you have +2 Intelligence, except when you use your Otaku abilities, then you reduce your effective intelligence by 2."

My books are still boxed otherwise I'd check, but I seem to recall Int `ware effective and important for otaku.

The difference is that these new magic otaku suffer damage to their aura which lessens their magic abilities as their Essence drops. The setting calls renamed all the magic bits, but if talks like duck, looks like a duck, floats like a duck ... it's a witch! Burn her!

I would like to see TMs differentiated from Mages in a meaningful way, but until then, it works that way because they're Awakened ... but not.

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Ryu
post Nov 10 2008, 07:40 AM
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Virtual Realities 2.0, pg. 145, header Enhanced Attributes, first sentence: "Cyberware that improves an otaku´s Mental Attribute adds its effect directly to the living persona´s ratings".
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2008, 09:21 AM
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so, intelligence 10 otaku right at gamestart . . . well, highly intelligent snotty little arrogant brats then . .
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simplexio
post Nov 10 2008, 10:54 AM
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As i understand technomancer rulers: They can't use Comlinks, Simsense Boosters and related stuff when they use living persona. But rules also say that they can use matrix old way. So question is that can they use resonance skills when they surf matrix using Datajack+commlink stuff?.

SR4e Core book p.233 says that technomancers use use their own version of computer, cybercombat, etc skills and they can learn hacker versions of those skills too.



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