So, I'm twiddling with a TM using karmagen and I'm thinking of getting a small amount of cyber.

Is there any reason I can't get a Simsense Booster?

I had assumed I would find some text banning the combo but I can't find it...

You take a hit on your max Resonance, which is a natural "balancer" for mixing 'ware and TM abilities. The only reason (fluff-wise) that I can think of for not allowing it is that the way a TM's brain interprets Simsense is not compatible with the way the Booster is designed to work. However, I think the Resonance/Essence hit is enough in my mind to balance the 'ware.

I would prefer to shore up weaknesses with the limited "essence budget" instead, but TMs should be able to use all augmentations, without special restrictions beyond the resonance loss. In this case, at a cost of 65k¥ + very likely -18 karma (lost resonance 6), waiting for submersion for the same effect is very tempting.

Good point. Especially if Submersion is allowed during karmagen.

The other thing I was considering is Type O System and a metric shit ton of Bio.

I´m not convinced of Type-O generally. 30 BP of well-choosen positive qualities and (worst-case) half the implants will usually be better.

Submersion/Initiation at chargen was a clear positive for our group, but watch out for munchkin mages and TMs.

Trouble with Type-O is the massive Availability Rating of most Bio. You could stuff tonnes of it in if only you could afford it and it was actually available at chargen.

One COULD argue, that Technomancers are different than most people and Mr. O(wen?) was probably not a Technomancer, so one could say it does not work . . but that's just semantics.
and bio isn't all that good for hacking things anyway or is it? wouldn't some way to get higher grade cyber cheap for less essence better?

Yeah, for twinking out a TM, I tend to go with biocompatability (cyber) and go to town. Restricted gear and adapsin for even better results.

Wouldn't the mage standby of Trauma Dampener/Platelet Factories rock even harder on a TM though? Or maybe I'm just confused on how to work TMs (I looked at build costs and went EWww, so I haven't really worked them out).

Type-O is something the character is born with, type-O bioware is considered very similar to body's own biological material so it integrates with minimal disraption but still essence loss (and the related resonance loss) happens. The fact that Mr. O. was not a 'mancer doesn't have any relevance, cloned type-O spare parts implanted on people do not cause essence loss, bioware doeas because of metabolical changes and stuff.
For the question if simsense booster can be applied to 'mancers I would say no, DNI allowes the comlink to be interfaced to the brain, simsense booster is an improved interface that allowes better interface betwen brain and 'link but TM very brain is the 'link, does it need something to interface to itself? No. Simsense booster would just mess resonance up, unless the 'mancer chooses to use a comlink than in that case (and only when using the 'link) it would work; not worth the essence loss IMO.

EWww?
I would just rule that due TM very prticular neural activity headware impacts them more than normal doubling the essence cost.

No, trauma damp/platelet factories, while nice for everyone, are not the "OMG AWESOME!112!@1" for TMs that they can be for mages.

As far a RAW goes... TM loses essence (and therefore resonance) and get an extra IP in vr.

Can I ask why? I mean, they take dra....er....fading from threading and summ....er...compiling/registering. And they also don't take Matrix damage to a persona, it all goes directly on top of all the rest of their body. It seems like it'd be a damn good reason to sink a little essence for it. Of course, I understand very little about TMs.

The fading they take from threading isn't really all that much to worry about. And compiling/registering can pretty much always be done in advance too. Basically, they don't need it because they don't take damage as they fight, they take it to prep for the fight. So they're in the same boat as everyone else, of, its nice to take a little less damage in combat, and not the mages boat of its nice to be able to cast a helluva lot more in combat.

Ahh, I see. I guess I wasn't thinking about the whole timing issues in comparison. Still be nice in combat when you thread that attack program up to a 12

Why?

Augmenting a TM is a difficult thing in the first place as Resonance is more important to them than Magic is to a mage.
They are almost always made of utmost suck outside of the matrix, while any well-built hacker can easily be constructed to be a decent secondary combatant.
Even within the matrix, a TM's player has to deliberately powergame to live up to the expectations- or pile up massive amounts of karma, while the hacker is competent from the very start of the game.
Clamping down even harder on them just seems unfair from a balancing perspective.

From a realism point of view, doubling the cost seems problematic as well.
TM's powers are based on the specific nature of their bioelectric field (or somesuch similar technobabbel), which is why Resonance is linked to Essence in the first place.
By your reasoning, non-neural 'ware like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor should not impact their abilities at all.

Fortunately, RAW doesn't bother with any of that.

Well, you have to cut through some parts of the nervous system which is the source of the unique status of the TMs bioelectric field (it's his antenna)

That exactly my point, other ware creates disturbance by altering the normal biological balance of the body, while headware messes directly with the biocomputer's cpu (the brain) impacting it in a much worse way than it would on non-TM subjects for the simple reason that there is a whole lot of neural activity that other people don't have.

Even though this might remotely make sense (as far as a concept like "holistic integrity" [which is not that logical in the first place] is concerned), the game balance question, as well as the style question, still remains.

Balance wise, i think i've made my point clear.
TMs are in the least disadvantaged compared to hackers, at least until you've either met their karma sink requirements -at a point in the game where other character types are already taking of to godlike levels- or have managed to turn them into a walking rules exploit (which is still a point i've not seen convincing evidence of, in spite of TM specific rules apparently full of exploit potential).
So any aditional punishment seems particularly unwarranted in their case.

Stylewise, many people already argue that it is not particularly fair that a character type naturally interacting with technology is punished by implanting cyberware more than any other character in the game- and in the case of a TM, if there's anything that just makes sense as an augmentation for them, it's headware.
So again, doubling the Essence penalty is one of the least sensible suggested houserules i've encountered to date.

*headscratch* Fluffwise it has been explained. Quite good, IMHO, but the overall "TM loses essence" etc is just... dunno. not exactly what i would call a bummer, since SR3 Otaku had penalties for Headware too, if i remember correct. Something along the lines "Yeah, if you take that nice +2 Intelligence Stuff you have +2 Intelligence, except when you use your Otaku abilities, then you reduce your effective intelligence by 2."

The whole "TMs talk to Machines, they shouldn't be punished for having cyber" is just... why shouldn't they? Cyberware is something very invasive to your body and your body is what you use to talk to machines.

Balancetechnical... well... dunno about the exact numbers (didn't care much about balance) but even if the fluff said "Everything important to Resonance is located in the brain" you'd have to define exactly which cyberware had an impact on everything...
Okay, i recognize that i should got to bed and think a little bit about it.

Anyway, i just realized some days ago that, although i really like the TMs Style, that the rules could need a redesign.

uh, no, i don't think otaku get punished for cyber at all . . they just can't use some of it to push their otaku abilities at all . . kinda like a technomancer can't use an external comlink to upgrade his own persona, if he is not using the regular hacking skills . . otaku had to start with a datajack after all . . and that's headware right?

My books are still boxed otherwise I'd check, but I seem to recall Int `ware effective and important for otaku.

The difference is that these new magic otaku suffer damage to their aura which lessens their magic abilities as their Essence drops. The setting calls renamed all the magic bits, but if talks like duck, looks like a duck, floats like a duck ... it's a witch! Burn her!

I would like to see TMs differentiated from Mages in a meaningful way, but until then, it works that way because they're Awakened ... but not.

Virtual Realities 2.0, pg. 145, header Enhanced Attributes, first sentence: "Cyberware that improves an otaku´s Mental Attribute adds its effect directly to the living persona´s ratings".

so, intelligence 10 otaku right at gamestart . . . well, highly intelligent snotty little arrogant brats then . .

As i understand technomancer rulers: They can't use Comlinks, Simsense Boosters and related stuff when they use living persona. But rules also say that they can use matrix old way. So question is that can they use resonance skills when they surf matrix using Datajack+commlink stuff?.

SR4e Core book p.233 says that technomancers use use their own version of computer, cybercombat, etc skills and they can learn hacker versions of those skills too.

No datajack! Bad boy! Trode net if you really need DNI.

Geeze peoples...

I've been working on a Technomancer idea for a bit, and so far I've determined that you almost need to be a SURGE II+ Elf for it to work properly (and by properly I mean effectively/efficiently). Use SURGE to get yourLogic to a natural maximum of 7, starting the game with a 6, and don't skimp on any of your other mental stats.

Also, don't forget about Betameth and Psych; those extra 2 points of Intuition and extra point of Logic are really important. Carry a 'link with a sattelite link, or a drone with the SatCom upgrade for boosting your signal, and you're about done.

I f you start with an Intuition of 5 (which you should), after Betameth + Psych, in full hot sim, with your Reality Filter (you do have that, don't you?) you're looking at a response of 9, with a matrix initiative of 18.

I've also determined that until you can Karma-sink your Technomancer, Dronomancer (or as I call them, techno-riggers) is the way to go. Slave them to your bio-link, and the non-technomancers are kinda out of luck. Or compile/register machine sprites (with your high elven charisma, quite a few) to take over the drones while you turn off their wireless and the take verbal commands only.

Coincidentally, I've discovered an iteresting quirk of the SR4 runes. Technomancers cannot compile and then regiser their own sprites with a rating > 8. It takes a number of hours = the rating of the sprite to register it, and unrigistered sprites decompile automatically after 8 hours. So your r9 sprite would decompile with one hour left in your VR session. The only option you're left with is going into the Resonance Realms in order to get the specs (or whatever) for a free sprite and then register that one.

Now I haven't completely drawn up stats for my Technomancer, but that's the concept I'd place behind it.

Oh a couple things I forgot... As a rigging technomancer, you only really need like Command, Reality Filter, and a couple other Complex Forms to play with permanently, with a possibly low rating. If you need one better, thread it up. You'd effectively be using your Sprites as Mooks for the important hacking bits though.

Also, with a Stealth of 5 (or 6), your 9 Response, and a rating 5 (or 6) Shield Complex Form, you won't get hit in Cybercombat, so no worries there.

As an aside, if you have a Reality Filter at rating 1 and thread it up to like 10-ish when you hack in and the test is made, after you win can't you just drop the thread and keep the +1 response? Just makes your job easier.

True words. But i really wouldn't say they are awakened, although they hack like a duck errr hacker. The fluffwise explanation at least makes sense.

Our GM, in an effort to make them playable, is taking the rules for AIs and allowing a TM to buy each CF as a base rating equal to the related mental attribute and then increases add one to the attribute. It brings the build costs down quite a bit and keeps the importance of the individual attributes. Also makes threading make sense unlike the "treat CFs like Spells" optional rule in Unwired did.

Wait.
I haven't told that from a balance point of view.
TM have the problem that they have the potential to rock at ungodly levels so they were made balanced making them major karma drains. Well maybe more than balancing it was overbalancing, which creates some "issues".
Aknowledged that, it's simple to see that TM need a boost rather than a nerf. It wasn't meant to be an houserule, it was a discussion about logical implications of implants in TM, as for boosting their abilities I might suggest to use the table labeled "Inerent Program Initial Rating Table" at p.89 of Runner Companion as base CF rating.

Well in that case, never mind.
I approached the whole issue completely from that POW.
Essence seems rather...esoteric and nebulous to me, so i view most of it as an in-game justification for an outgame balance measure.

Ops, Drogos's GM preceded me.
Wich attribute-complex form association your GM uses D.?

The same one afaik. He's still hammering it out and until he's finished, I'm focusing on my current PC.

Esoteric indeed but you have to admit that is a plausible one (we are talking of a fictional world in which dragons own corporations and have their own talk-show and they have to share the spotlight with mage, elves, free spirits IAs and what not) that generates a whole lot of fluff and rules that make much more sense than what can be seen in other games (for example That Other Game allignament system), just think how many things are related to essence (or has to factor it in some way), how the game would work without it?

Ok I admit my ignorance.... what's is afaik?

If can help your GM there's that table I've been spoking of above as my 0.02

Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't want to get rid of Essence.
It's not that implausible either, the notions that magic and technology would somehow interfere negatively with each other and that cybernetics have negative effects on your "humanity" (whatever that means in a given setting) are both well established concepts in speculative fiction.
I'm just stating that it's there mostly as a way to ensure game balance.

afaik = as far as I know

Thanks !!!

Sure they can. They're called portable hard drives


Yes and No.
They can fire up their living persona and hop through the commlink and be able to take advantage of some of the commlink's features (ie, Satalite Uplink, a running agent, etc) but they either hack using hacking skills or ressonance ... It might be possible, however to run a living persona and a commlink persona as two matrix entities, particularly with the multitasking echo, but each one would be wholely "mundane" or "ressonancy".

I kinda like this idea, I think I'll use a varient of it next time one of my players runs a TM. I realize that sprites and threading can make a techno a super-versatile matrix god, but the whole scaling cost of complex forms makes them way too expensive, especially when a rating 5 hacking program only costs 1 BP(or 2 karma in my preferred karma creation system). At first I used the CF as spell thing, making them cost a base cost and have a rating equal to resonance, but then players never threaded to make their forms better, and after submerging once or twice they became way way too powerful. Making the forms have a base cost and having them at a rank equal to a listed attribute encourages players to make their attributes good, and still encourages threading(esp if they have a low attribute/high resonance).

What should the cost be? 3BP/5 karma?

I think he's making it 1 BP for base cost +1 BP for each bonus over the attribute (or 2 Karma). However, he's still hammering it out and working through it on an NPC to see how much it screws with their power level. I don't think you'd be out of place to make it 3 BP/5 Karma. He's still balancing it and working through the details and as soon as he is, I'll probably give it a go to try and break it.

Is it just me or is that "TMs can't hack like normals and must learn a seperate set of skills" rule a super-nerf and completely incompatible with the concept behind the Sourcerer Stream? Personally, I threw that rule out right away and am testing the "CFs work like spells" rules in my new campaign. The only problem I'm seeing so far is sustaining penalties (the BP/Karma cost differential is incredible). I'm also testing the "minimum DV from fading" option and applying it to Spirits as well (last campaign had the elf conjurer regularly invoking force 6 spirits for less than 3 stun damage for the entire process).

ya know i hear this one thrown about on DF a lot, and unless i was TOTALLY SPACING when i read and reread that section in the BBB, or it got errata'ed, or it was changed in Unwired (i don't have it *cry*) i could swear that the "separate skills" thing only applied to teaching them, not their actual use.


while the last sentence may leave things a little ambiguous, there doesn't seem to be any REAL game effects for the skill-split besides teaching and skillsofts.

yeah, I was under the interpretation that they didn't have to have two seperate skillsets, just that the way they used them differed slightly and when forced to use their matrix skills through an electronic device rather than their inherent link to the 'trix, it fealt wierd and awkward. I just thought it was a flavor thing, not a hard fast "You have to have the cracking skill twice to make it work on a commlink"

I see no ambiguity here. It clearly states that technomancers would need to learn the normal skills separately (or use a skillsoft) if they want to use them in a non-technomancer manner.



How is that unclear?

Bah, more reasons not to gloss over sections of the books.