Genetic Heritage Quality in Augmentation, For that first genetic mod, what does 'free' mean? Options

[pbangarth]

In Augmentation, page 20, under the Quality Genetic Heritage it says, "It is thus possible that children have inherited genetically modified genes from one or both progenitors. Such an inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic modification (see p. 72) for free."

So, does this mean the genetic modification costs no money and no essence cost? This could be really cool for an Awakened character.

Peter

[TheOOB]

On the one hand, if it made it so there was no essence cost, I imagine it would explicitly mention it, on the other hand I don't think it's possible for someone to be born with less then 6 essence. Your essence gets lowered as you are removed from your natural state of existence, and for you that genetic mod is naturally part of you.

[DWC]

On the one hand, if it made it so there was no essence cost, I imagine it would explicitly mention it, on the other hand I don't think it's possible for someone to be born with less then 6 essence. Your essence gets lowered as you are removed from your natural state of existence, and for you that genetic mod is naturally part of you.

My kneejerk reaction would be to house rule that it doesn't cost any essence, but by strict reading of the rules, it looks like it still would cost the Essence.

[MJBurrage]

Don't have my book handy, but I would agree that absent specific wording to the contrary, that it should cost no essence. It is your natural born state.

[Fortune]

Can Ghouls breed? If so, are their children born with an Essence of 5 (as per normal ghouls) or 6 (on the supposition that metahumans cannot be born with less than 6 Essence)?

[Muspellsheimr]

This was addressed somewhere, I believe in the Augmentation Q&A. Unless it specifies that it does not cost Essence, it does.

[pbangarth]

Can Ghouls breed? If so, are their children born with an Essence of 5 (as per normal ghouls) or 6 (on the supposition that metahumans cannot be born with less than 6 Essence)?

The analogy is a bit weak here. Ghouls are infected, and their offspring would acquire the infection.

I will see if I can find a reference in the Augmentation Q&A.

Peter

[Fortune]

Sure it's weak, but it's the best I could come up with off the top of my head before coffee (the real definition of BC!). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In my games, such augmentation would not be Essence-free.

[AllTheNothing]

This was addressed somewhere, I believe in the Augmentation Q&A. Unless it specifies that it does not cost Essence, it does.

Which sucks, I would say add 5 bp to the cost for every 0,1 (round up) essence cost, ditch aviability cap (you didn't need to find it, you were born with it) and make that doesn't count aganist the 35 bp positive qualities cap. It could also allow to inherit more than a single modificaion (the character could be en experiment of genetical engeneering). Yes you can inherit a geneteched rating 3 synapsic booster along a complete suit of genetic optimizations but it costs:
5 + 5*15(synapsic booster) + 5*2(genetic optimization)*8 = 160 bp

[pbangarth]

Found a reference to an entry by Synner: (cut and paste destroyed the pretty quoting)

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 27 2007, 11:16 PM)

Hm. Is it just me, or are there no actual rules concerning the detection of Genetech, though Masking has an option of increasing the threshold by 1?

The absence of DNA scanners is at least partially an unfortunate result of the change in the release schedule. Arsenal will contain such forensic devices, we had expected it to be out first. Those who need a rule can use the Diagnostics rules in the Medtech chapter.

QUOTE

And what exactly does the 'free' of the Genetic Heritage quality mean? No Nuyen? No Essence? Both?

"Free" refers to the nuyen cost only.

Damn.




Peter

[Fortune]

Works for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

The analogy is a bit weak here. Ghouls are infected, and their offspring would acquire the infection.

I will see if I can find a reference in the Augmentation Q&A.

Peter

no, it's the perfect analogy actually . .
what else than a magical geneware treatment IS the Krieger-strain HMHVV?
with genetic heritage, you are INFECTED with bioware from your parents, like a spawn would be with Krieger Virus . .
you have no choice in that matter . . you get born a human, but not QUITE human . .
you will be just as much augmented/non human with 20 years ans someone who gets the treatment at the age of 20 . .
the only choice you have is in IF your character gets it and WHAT he gets not how it works . .
and nopt making it count against the qualities limit would be dumb . . everone would get it . .
and the first people with this would be realistically somewhere between 10 and 20 years old, or am i mistaken in the time genetech was first applied?

[Kurious]

Was that a dev answer in that Q&A? If so, IMHO, that is pretty lame.

It is one thing to be 'infected' at birth with a magic virus and take an essence hit.

But it is down right silly to take the essence hit from having genetically modified parents. Gene-ware is not bio-ware; if you are able to pass your spliced genetic code to your children, it becomes their natural code.

I really don't think there should be an essence cost.

[hyzmarca]

Actually, the children of Ghoul mothers, like the children of HIV-positive mothers, may be born uninfected. The virus isn't present in ova, so they are not conceived infected, and it usually cannot pass through the placenta. Any number of prenatal and birthing complications can result in a child being exposed to the virus, but even this does not ensure infection. In addition, it can be passed along in breast milk, which puts the uninfected children of poor mothers who cannot afford formula at high risk.

Genetic Heritage, on the other hand, is a result of altered gamete. It isn't something you're born with (well, it is, but born comes later) its part of who you are. The very concept of a you without the modification doesn't exist. It is an intrinsic part of your being since the plank-second you started existing, after the sperm and the egg did their dance.

So, yes, having it cost essence is stupid. It is really done for game balance concerns, since without it few players would opt to not have genetic heritage in any of their PCs.

Of course, going by the canon geneware progression, a character with genetic heritage is, at most, seven in 2070, unless we're dealing with the kids of test subjects who became modified in early clinical trials, and even that doesn't add too many more years to the character's potential age.

[Xiaan]

In my opinion geneware still costing essence reguardless if it's an inherited trait or not makes sence. Little is known in the sixth world as to how metagenes funtion or how exactly the metasapien body connects with the astral (in the case of flat out mundains). And that, at least in part, is what Essence reflects the connection of the purely arcaine with the suple sack of meat. If someone gets a genetic alteration it's a change on the holistic system and still fudges with that connection. It's not perfect in the spiritual sence. The metaphysical beings connection to it's body is affected. That genetic change can be passed down to the next generation but it's still an artificial augmentation to the system. While the body is able to cope with the unnatural stressors it makes sence that the spirit would still be affected, if only because the "link" between the astral and the physical is askew. I don't know if it's ever been covered in cannon but I'd imagine that many birth defects and genetic deseases would behave the same way.

[Kurious]

If the SURGE quality also had an essence hit, I might agree with you. But, I really don't see being born with 'better genes' as an augmentation in any way... If nothing else, you are a slight meta-variant.

Now I can see some point in having an essence cost from a metagame standpoint, i.e. so every character in SR isn't the product of parental gene-tinkery. Though, since none of the gene stuff is that great and it cost almost a third of your PQ's, even if a Dev made the clarification I just can't in good conscience enforce the essence hit (so long as the characters story fits appropriately, of course).

[Mordinvan]

Which leads to the problem of species evolving their way to extinction. Every mutation would cost essence, and all mutations needed to further integrate the mutation would also cost essence.... since each person has a few mutations their parents didn't, if you're charging essence for each one, that quickly means any given species will go extinct.

[TheOOB]

If your character is old enough to have inherited a meaningful generic modification, that means either your parents where test subjects, or had some serious moolah(how else would they get good gene mods in the 40-50s? Either way that will cause problems, and I'm sure any number of corps would love to cut you open to see just how gene tech gets inherited.

When you think about it though, not making cost essence isn't that overpowered. Lets assume the most common mod to take with that advantage in to increase your natural maximum by 1 in an attribute. When compared to the 20BP of exceptional attribute, it seems to be too good to be true, but remenber that exceptional attribute stacks with the gene mod to increase attributes, but if you are born with the gene mod you can never get it again, which means while the genetic heritage character and the exceptional attribute character have the same base maximum, the exceptional attribute character can still take advantage of gene tech to get even better, and that is worth 10 BP.

[Tachi]

This doesn't really matter, but, when I was reading that I noticed that every time they referred to essence cost it was printed with first letter caps (i.e. "Essence Cost"), however, every time they referred to money it was not first letter caps (i.e. "nuyen cost"). Then, in the genetic heritage quality it's printed as "Cost". So, until I just saw the post above clarifying it, I had assumed it referred to "Essence Cost". Silly me.

(At least, that's how it appears in my book.)

[AllTheNothing]

Genetic Heritage, on the other hand, is a result of altered gamete. It isn't something you're born with (well, it is, but born comes later) its part of who you are. The very concept of a you without the modification doesn't exist. It is an intrinsic part of your being since the plank-second you started existing, after the sperm and the egg did their dance.

So, yes, having it cost essence is stupid. It is really done for game balance concerns, since without it few players would opt to not have genetic heritage in any of their PCs.

Of course, going by the canon geneware progression, a character with genetic heritage is, at most, seven in 2070, unless we're dealing with the kids of test subjects who became modified in early clinical trials, and even that doesn't add too many more years to the character's potential age.

In my hopinion a metahuman being develop in more fases in which metabolism changes (just think about puberty) until adulthood is reached, this due fisical development essence adaptes as genetic potential expresses (reason why genecrafted characters take lower essence hit, they were modified very early in their lives), so if you were born with them growth process armonizes the whole thing preventing the essence hit. The balance problem is in the low BP cost of the quality, but it can be resolved making it proportional to essence cost avoided (see my post above and tell me if it's all that unbalanced).

[Tachi]

(see my post above and tell me if it's all that unbalanced).

I like it, and, I think I'll use it. Makes more sense to me.

[AllTheNothing]

I like it, and, I think I'll use it. Makes more sense to me.

Happy to be usefull. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

I think there are a fair number of things in the game that have an Essence cost merely for balance reasons. I'm quite fine with that though, so the cost in this case is a non-issue.

[AllTheNothing]

I think there are a fair number of things in the game that have an Essence cost merely for balance reasons. I'm quite fine with that though, so the cost in this case is a non-issue.

The issue is that the essence cost makes the quality rather useless, well at least in my hopinion.

[Fortune]

I don't share that opinion. In fact, I believe that without the Essence cost, the Quality is too good.