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pbangarth
In Augmentation, page 20, under the Quality Genetic Heritage it says, "It is thus possible that children have inherited genetically modified genes from one or both progenitors. Such an inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic modification (see p. 72) for free."

So, does this mean the genetic modification costs no money and no essence cost? This could be really cool for an Awakened character.

Peter
TheOOB
On the one hand, if it made it so there was no essence cost, I imagine it would explicitly mention it, on the other hand I don't think it's possible for someone to be born with less then 6 essence. Your essence gets lowered as you are removed from your natural state of existence, and for you that genetic mod is naturally part of you.
DWC
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 15 2008, 01:31 PM) *
On the one hand, if it made it so there was no essence cost, I imagine it would explicitly mention it, on the other hand I don't think it's possible for someone to be born with less then 6 essence. Your essence gets lowered as you are removed from your natural state of existence, and for you that genetic mod is naturally part of you.


My kneejerk reaction would be to house rule that it doesn't cost any essence, but by strict reading of the rules, it looks like it still would cost the Essence.
MJBurrage
Don't have my book handy, but I would agree that absent specific wording to the contrary, that it should cost no essence. It is your natural born state.
Fortune
Can Ghouls breed? If so, are their children born with an Essence of 5 (as per normal ghouls) or 6 (on the supposition that metahumans cannot be born with less than 6 Essence)?
Muspellsheimr
This was addressed somewhere, I believe in the Augmentation Q&A. Unless it specifies that it does not cost Essence, it does.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2008, 02:25 PM) *
Can Ghouls breed? If so, are their children born with an Essence of 5 (as per normal ghouls) or 6 (on the supposition that metahumans cannot be born with less than 6 Essence)?


The analogy is a bit weak here. Ghouls are infected, and their offspring would acquire the infection.

I will see if I can find a reference in the Augmentation Q&A.

Peter
Fortune
Sure it's weak, but it's the best I could come up with off the top of my head before coffee (the real definition of BC!). smile.gif

In my games, such augmentation would not be Essence-free.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 15 2008, 10:30 PM) *
This was addressed somewhere, I believe in the Augmentation Q&A. Unless it specifies that it does not cost Essence, it does.



Which sucks, I would say add 5 bp to the cost for every 0,1 (round up) essence cost, ditch aviability cap (you didn't need to find it, you were born with it) and make that doesn't count aganist the 35 bp positive qualities cap. It could also allow to inherit more than a single modificaion (the character could be en experiment of genetical engeneering). Yes you can inherit a geneteched rating 3 synapsic booster along a complete suit of genetic optimizations but it costs:
5 + 5*15(synapsic booster) + 5*2(genetic optimization)*8 = 160 bp
pbangarth
Found a reference to an entry by Synner: (cut and paste destroyed the pretty quoting)

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 27 2007, 11:16 PM)

Hm. Is it just me, or are there no actual rules concerning the detection of Genetech, though Masking has an option of increasing the threshold by 1?




The absence of DNA scanners is at least partially an unfortunate result of the change in the release schedule. Arsenal will contain such forensic devices, we had expected it to be out first. Those who need a rule can use the Diagnostics rules in the Medtech chapter.




QUOTE

And what exactly does the 'free' of the Genetic Heritage quality mean? No Nuyen? No Essence? Both?


"Free" refers to the nuyen cost only.



Damn.




Peter


Fortune
Works for me. smile.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 15 2008, 11:20 PM) *
The analogy is a bit weak here. Ghouls are infected, and their offspring would acquire the infection.

I will see if I can find a reference in the Augmentation Q&A.

Peter

no, it's the perfect analogy actually . .
what else than a magical geneware treatment IS the Krieger-strain HMHVV?
with genetic heritage, you are INFECTED with bioware from your parents, like a spawn would be with Krieger Virus . .
you have no choice in that matter . . you get born a human, but not QUITE human . .
you will be just as much augmented/non human with 20 years ans someone who gets the treatment at the age of 20 . .
the only choice you have is in IF your character gets it and WHAT he gets not how it works . .
and nopt making it count against the qualities limit would be dumb . . everone would get it . .
and the first people with this would be realistically somewhere between 10 and 20 years old, or am i mistaken in the time genetech was first applied?
Kurious
Was that a dev answer in that Q&A? If so, IMHO, that is pretty lame.

It is one thing to be 'infected' at birth with a magic virus and take an essence hit.

But it is down right silly to take the essence hit from having genetically modified parents. Gene-ware is not bio-ware; if you are able to pass your spliced genetic code to your children, it becomes their natural code.

I really don't think there should be an essence cost.
hyzmarca

Actually, the children of Ghoul mothers, like the children of HIV-positive mothers, may be born uninfected. The virus isn't present in ova, so they are not conceived infected, and it usually cannot pass through the placenta. Any number of prenatal and birthing complications can result in a child being exposed to the virus, but even this does not ensure infection. In addition, it can be passed along in breast milk, which puts the uninfected children of poor mothers who cannot afford formula at high risk.

Genetic Heritage, on the other hand, is a result of altered gamete. It isn't something you're born with (well, it is, but born comes later) its part of who you are. The very concept of a you without the modification doesn't exist. It is an intrinsic part of your being since the plank-second you started existing, after the sperm and the egg did their dance.

So, yes, having it cost essence is stupid. It is really done for game balance concerns, since without it few players would opt to not have genetic heritage in any of their PCs.

Of course, going by the canon geneware progression, a character with genetic heritage is, at most, seven in 2070, unless we're dealing with the kids of test subjects who became modified in early clinical trials, and even that doesn't add too many more years to the character's potential age.
Xiaan
In my opinion geneware still costing essence reguardless if it's an inherited trait or not makes sence. Little is known in the sixth world as to how metagenes funtion or how exactly the metasapien body connects with the astral (in the case of flat out mundains). And that, at least in part, is what Essence reflects the connection of the purely arcaine with the suple sack of meat. If someone gets a genetic alteration it's a change on the holistic system and still fudges with that connection. It's not perfect in the spiritual sence. The metaphysical beings connection to it's body is affected. That genetic change can be passed down to the next generation but it's still an artificial augmentation to the system. While the body is able to cope with the unnatural stressors it makes sence that the spirit would still be affected, if only because the "link" between the astral and the physical is askew. I don't know if it's ever been covered in cannon but I'd imagine that many birth defects and genetic deseases would behave the same way.
Kurious
If the SURGE quality also had an essence hit, I might agree with you. But, I really don't see being born with 'better genes' as an augmentation in any way... If nothing else, you are a slight meta-variant.

Now I can see some point in having an essence cost from a metagame standpoint, i.e. so every character in SR isn't the product of parental gene-tinkery. Though, since none of the gene stuff is that great and it cost almost a third of your PQ's, even if a Dev made the clarification I just can't in good conscience enforce the essence hit (so long as the characters story fits appropriately, of course).
Mordinvan
Which leads to the problem of species evolving their way to extinction. Every mutation would cost essence, and all mutations needed to further integrate the mutation would also cost essence.... since each person has a few mutations their parents didn't, if you're charging essence for each one, that quickly means any given species will go extinct.
TheOOB
If your character is old enough to have inherited a meaningful generic modification, that means either your parents where test subjects, or had some serious moolah(how else would they get good gene mods in the 40-50s? Either way that will cause problems, and I'm sure any number of corps would love to cut you open to see just how gene tech gets inherited.

When you think about it though, not making cost essence isn't that overpowered. Lets assume the most common mod to take with that advantage in to increase your natural maximum by 1 in an attribute. When compared to the 20BP of exceptional attribute, it seems to be too good to be true, but remenber that exceptional attribute stacks with the gene mod to increase attributes, but if you are born with the gene mod you can never get it again, which means while the genetic heritage character and the exceptional attribute character have the same base maximum, the exceptional attribute character can still take advantage of gene tech to get even better, and that is worth 10 BP.
Tachi
This doesn't really matter, but, when I was reading that I noticed that every time they referred to essence cost it was printed with first letter caps (i.e. "Essence Cost"), however, every time they referred to money it was not first letter caps (i.e. "nuyen cost"). Then, in the genetic heritage quality it's printed as "Cost". So, until I just saw the post above clarifying it, I had assumed it referred to "Essence Cost". Silly me.

(At least, that's how it appears in my book.)
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 16 2008, 04:10 AM) *
Genetic Heritage, on the other hand, is a result of altered gamete. It isn't something you're born with (well, it is, but born comes later) its part of who you are. The very concept of a you without the modification doesn't exist. It is an intrinsic part of your being since the plank-second you started existing, after the sperm and the egg did their dance.

So, yes, having it cost essence is stupid. It is really done for game balance concerns, since without it few players would opt to not have genetic heritage in any of their PCs.

Of course, going by the canon geneware progression, a character with genetic heritage is, at most, seven in 2070, unless we're dealing with the kids of test subjects who became modified in early clinical trials, and even that doesn't add too many more years to the character's potential age.



In my hopinion a metahuman being develop in more fases in which metabolism changes (just think about puberty) until adulthood is reached, this due fisical development essence adaptes as genetic potential expresses (reason why genecrafted characters take lower essence hit, they were modified very early in their lives), so if you were born with them growth process armonizes the whole thing preventing the essence hit. The balance problem is in the low BP cost of the quality, but it can be resolved making it proportional to essence cost avoided (see my post above and tell me if it's all that unbalanced).
Tachi
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Nov 16 2008, 04:19 AM) *
(see my post above and tell me if it's all that unbalanced).


I like it, and, I think I'll use it. Makes more sense to me.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Tachi @ Nov 16 2008, 02:23 PM) *
I like it, and, I think I'll use it. Makes more sense to me.



Happy to be usefull. smile.gif
Fortune
I think there are a fair number of things in the game that have an Essence cost merely for balance reasons. I'm quite fine with that though, so the cost in this case is a non-issue.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 16 2008, 03:45 PM) *
I think there are a fair number of things in the game that have an Essence cost merely for balance reasons. I'm quite fine with that though, so the cost in this case is a non-issue.



The issue is that the essence cost makes the quality rather useless, well at least in my hopinion.
Fortune
I don't share that opinion. In fact, I believe that without the Essence cost, the Quality is too good.
Kurious
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Nov 16 2008, 04:18 PM) *
The issue is that the essence cost makes the quality rather useless, well at least in my hopinion.


I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.
de4dmeta1
QUOTE (Kurious @ Nov 16 2008, 11:56 AM) *
I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.

You would take the 10BP one because, theoretically, you could get more than your 50BP of gear with it. Also, the 20% nuyen discount for Transgenics with Genetic Heritage is permanent. Genecrafted only gives you the nuyen discount at chargen. So yeah, there are reasons why you might want to take the 10BP one over the 5BP one.

As far as the complaint about not saving on the essence hit - consider that a 10BP quality gives you a 10% essence discount on cyber/nano or bio. Why in the hell should a different 10BP quality not only give you a free, quite expensive genemod /and/ an essence discount? If the quality did that, frankly, it would probably max out your positive qualities all by itself.
Kurious
I guess you could 'theoretically' get more then 50 BP worth of gear, or you can start "rich" and get 60 BP worth of gear; hell, and then go into "debt" and have even more (and get more BP for your trouble). Then just take the 5 point genecrafted and save-save-save.

As for biocompatability comparison... you figure 10% off ever cybernetic in a Sam will probably be worth .3-.5 Essence (depending on build); whereas the most expensive essence hit for gene-tech is .5, the vast majority are .3 and less. I feel the two are on near equal in terms in regards to their essence savings and BP cost.
Ravor
It makes more sense with Pattern Theory of Magic, the altered genes simply aren't "quite right" so it registers as a Pattern Warp aka Essence Loss. The fact that you were born with it doesn't matter, metahumanity crafted genes simply aren't natural.
Kurious
Justify it how you like.

IMHO, it is one thing to alter the existing gene; quite another to be born with it. If metavariants have no essence cost with their genetic expressions... a kid who naturally adopted their parents gene-alteration should not either.
Ravor
The genes that control metavariant expression are "natural" and therefore more Magic-friendly then ones that were made by humanity, it is the same basic idea as why it is harder to powerbolt (or enchant) refined objects than it is natural ones.
Stahlkörper
QUOTE (Kurious @ Nov 16 2008, 06:56 PM) *
I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.


Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.
Kurious
In utero augmentation should carry an essence cost, for every reason you just said; but, IMHO, having modified parental genes carry over to their child should not.

They are natural genes to the child at that point. And not a product of direct science tinkering.
Kurious
QUOTE (Stahlkörper @ Nov 17 2008, 02:03 AM) *
Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.


At risk of opening a can of worms here... I don't think you would get a 'free attribute' for your 10 BP (assuming you took Genetic Optimization as your Genetic Heritage, of course).

Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization both say they 'raise your maximum'. They never mention raising your minimum, which is key to 'free stats'. Case in point, the SURGE quality Metagenetic Improvement specifically raises both the minimum and the maximum.
de4dmeta1
QUOTE (Stahlkörper @ Nov 16 2008, 08:03 PM) *
Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.

QUOTE (Augmentation, p.89)
Genetic Optimization
Genetic optimization permanently increases physical and mental potential by tweaking the genes... Each time a character undergoes gene optimization, he may raise his maximum natural attribute rating (and consequently his maximum augmented attribute rating) in a Physical or Mental attribute of his choice by one point. Each attribute can only be perfected in this manner once.
Like the Exceptional Attribute quality (p.78, SR4), this treatment does not raise the attribute itself—meaning the character must still spend Karma to raise the attribute as usual..."

Taking Genetic Optimization as the nuyen-free genemod for Genetic Heritage doesn't raise your attributes. Only the maximum value you can have.

Kurious - Just because the child is born with the genes doesn't mean they're natural. They aren't mana-triggered expressions like meta-humans or SURGE changelings. The genes in question aren't a result of direct SCIENCE! tinkering, but an indirect effect - which is still unnatural. If it was a naturally occurring mutation (like say, Exceptional Attribute), there wouldn't be a problem, but it's an artificial gene introduced brute-force into the genome.
Kurious
QUOTE (de4dmeta1 @ Nov 17 2008, 02:22 AM) *
Kurious - Just because the child is born with the genes doesn't mean they're natural. They aren't mana-triggered expressions like meta-humans or SURGE changelings. The genes in question aren't a result of direct SCIENCE! tinkering, but an indirect effect - which is still unnatural. If it was a naturally occurring mutation (like say, Exceptional Attribute), there wouldn't be a problem, but it's an artificial gene introduced brute-force into the genome.


Here is where our opinions differ. I see second gen 'tweaked-genes' as being natural to the child, no different then being born with an Exceptional Attribute.

Though, to be fair, from a mechanics POV: without the essence cost, it does cheapen that particular PQ since one cost 20, and the other is only 10. Granted, by the same token... SURGE II does too (to a higher degree), so- meh. Play it how you feel is most fair, biggrin.gif
Tachi
If the "Name Givers" were "adjusted" by the horrors (and the dragons, and just about anyone else who got the hankering at one point or another), then how is anyone (except maybe a few million "pure" humans without metagenes) really "natural" without their bodies having adapted to genetic alterations, even if they were done with magic?
Ravor
Because magical alternation works at a level of existance that is impossible for Sixth World science to touch, namely on the Astral, if/when humanity is able to shape the Astral with the same expertize as the Horrors and their first spawn, the Dragons then their alternations wouldn't necessarily cost Essence either.
Cabral
QUOTE (Tachi @ Nov 17 2008, 03:39 AM) *
If the "Name Givers" were "adjusted" by the horrors (and the dragons, and just about anyone else who got the hankering at one point or another), then how is anyone (except maybe a few million "pure" humans without metagenes) really "natural" without their bodies having adapted to genetic alterations, even if they were done with magic?

Because "Renaming" made it natural. That's an unnatural human. Let's rename it an elf. That's a natural Elf. smile.gif
Dr Funfrock
I'm with Ravor and Cabral on this one. Unfortunately a lot of people here are still trying to think about this scientifically, even though essence loss is a completely unscientific process.
Kurious
It's not a matter of thinking scientifically, as it is a matter of thinking logically.

But, for fun, whose to say the second-gen genes are not adopted magically?

Your Parental Genetic Heritage was adopted by you because of a low level magic genetic awakening.


***
Really, for me, it is more a matter of mechanics. The why is secondary to the what. A 10 BP PQ that only saves you 3 to 9 BP; and still cost you essence is silly IMO. It makes more sense to me to be completely free, a natural part of the child's genetic code. Especially since there is no game breaking genetic alterations.

But to each their own. Right?
Ravor
The problem is that unless the "magical adoption" includes a Renaming Ceramony than it doesn't matter, the genes would still cost Essence. cyber.gif
Kurious
PQ's

Genetic Heritage: Daredrenaline; AKA: The 'Allsparksgene'.



Done and done. wink.gif
Ravor
Not sure what your first bit is supposed to mean, but how does being on a permament adrenaline high equate to having your warped Magical Essence renamed and brought into the natural order.
Kurious
QUOTE
"Doctor, Doctor," The woman cried out, "My son is always running around, getting into things, trying to jump from the kitchen table to the cabinets!

"Whats wrong with him?" She sobs.

After days of test the doctor comes back, "Mrs Smith, I think I have found little Timmy's problem... Did you or his father ever get genework done in the past?"

"Yes, his father was... in the service. He got some work done to help him survive the dangerous missions he would be sent on."

"I see," said the doctor, stroking his chin, "Well, let me show you something."

The doctor opens a file showing a hologram of the double Helix overlaid with the current mapping of the human genome.

"In this region I have found something amazing. Timmy's genetic code has somehow awakened in this region right here," the Doctor points at the various charts, "And has adopted this new code, presumably from his father, when his genetic structure was first forming. I can assure you Mrs Smith, this is quite natural, though your son will always be a bit of a risk taker because of it. I can prescribe some medicine that will sedate him enough to not get himself killed, but in the long run I think it would be better to put the child in gymnastics or some other relatively safe sport that he can express himself in."

"So... So this is in his genetic code?" The woman asked, trying to make sense of it all.

"Absolutely, Mrs Smith," the Doctor said happily, "It is the first of this kind that I have seen; I have named it "The Allsparkgene 245212" and have put it in the system, so other can better find it should another child's genes awaken as yours did. With all the magical awakening at the genetic level, and all the parents of today tweaking their genes; I suspect in twenty to thirty years there will be a lot of little Timmy's expressing the Allsparkgene; and any number of other meta-superior genes."


Substitute any genetherapy you like. The end result is the same. A child's genetic awakening resulting from a parent tweaking their own genes- named and classified by a doctor (to save the poor kid some essence).
Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (Augmentation)
Genetic restorations such as age rejuvenation and augmented healing are treatments to restore patients back to their native forms.


QUOTE (Augmentation)
Phenotype adjustments are more substantial changes, which result in minor Essence losses. These reflect mutations that have been known to occur in nature, but are not natural to the patient. Some of these have even arisen spontaneously or by exposure to mutagens like radiation, pollutants, UV, or even food additives.


QUOTE (Augmentation)
Transgenics refers to inserting genes that originate from either non-metahuman species or de novo designs. These can lead to major metabolic or phenotypic alteration. They are considered “foreign? in terms of biological systemic stress and cause Essence loss.


OK, so Augmentation both indicates and demonstrates through the statting that restorations have no effect on essence because they work to return the body to it's proper form.
Transgenics, it is indicated quite firmly in the text, are genetic material that is inhuman in origin. It causes essence loss because of it's inhuman origin; therefore a child who inherits this inhuman material should still suffer essence loss because the genetic material itself is not human in origin, and it is explicity the origin that causes the essence loss.

Phenotype adjustments are the interesting one. It is noted that Phenotype adjustments can occur as a result of exposure to radiation and the like. So the question really is, do mutations that occur as a result of radiation or food additives cause essence loss?
Ravor
Sorry, but unless the mother's doctor happened to be a Great Dragon or some other remament from the Fourth World the child is SoL, when a mundane decides that he is going to "rename" guns to cats, you don't have to worry about your trusty predator giving birth to a liter of kittens.
Kurious
So your saying a great dragon made elves and dwarves through the UGE; orks and trolls through SURGE?

And all changlings are the products of great dragons fooling around with people at random?
Ravor
Well Dr Funfrock I would rule that yes, they did cause damage to the being's Pattern (aka Essence Loss) but that for the majority of the population the damage simply isn't enough to notice at the scaling level Shadowrun has choosen.
Ravor
*chuckles* Nice try Kurious.
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