Genetic Heritage Quality in Augmentation, For that first genetic mod, what does 'free' mean? Options

[Kurious]

The issue is that the essence cost makes the quality rather useless, well at least in my hopinion.

I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.

[de4dmeta1]

I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.

You would take the 10BP one because, theoretically, you could get more than your 50BP of gear with it. Also, the 20% nuyen discount for Transgenics with Genetic Heritage is permanent. Genecrafted only gives you the nuyen discount at chargen. So yeah, there are reasons why you might want to take the 10BP one over the 5BP one.

As far as the complaint about not saving on the essence hit - consider that a 10BP quality gives you a 10% essence discount on cyber/nano or bio. Why in the hell should a different 10BP quality not only give you a free, quite expensive genemod /and/ an essence discount? If the quality did that, frankly, it would probably max out your positive qualities all by itself.

[Kurious]

I guess you could 'theoretically' get more then 50 BP worth of gear, or you can start "rich" and get 60 BP worth of gear; hell, and then go into "debt" and have even more (and get more BP for your trouble). Then just take the 5 point genecrafted and save-save-save.

As for biocompatability comparison... you figure 10% off ever cybernetic in a Sam will probably be worth .3-.5 Essence (depending on build); whereas the most expensive essence hit for gene-tech is .5, the vast majority are .3 and less. I feel the two are on near equal in terms in regards to their essence savings and BP cost.

[Ravor]

It makes more sense with Pattern Theory of Magic, the altered genes simply aren't "quite right" so it registers as a Pattern Warp aka Essence Loss. The fact that you were born with it doesn't matter, metahumanity crafted genes simply aren't natural.

[Kurious]

Justify it how you like.

IMHO, it is one thing to alter the existing gene; quite another to be born with it. If metavariants have no essence cost with their genetic expressions... a kid who naturally adopted their parents gene-alteration should not either.

[Ravor]

The genes that control metavariant expression are "natural" and therefore more Magic-friendly then ones that were made by humanity, it is the same basic idea as why it is harder to powerbolt (or enchant) refined objects than it is natural ones.

[Stahlkörper]

I agree!!

Considering the most expensive gene-therapy procedure cost 9BP at start; what would be the point of taking a 10BP PQ if you don't get to save on the essence hit? Just take the 5BP one (genecrafted) if you want to save nuyen... both give you the same price discount after all.

Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.

[Kurious]

In utero augmentation should carry an essence cost, for every reason you just said; but, IMHO, having modified parental genes carry over to their child should not.

They are natural genes to the child at that point. And not a product of direct science tinkering.

[Kurious]

Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.

At risk of opening a can of worms here... I don't think you would get a 'free attribute' for your 10 BP (assuming you took Genetic Optimization as your Genetic Heritage, of course).

Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization both say they 'raise your maximum'. They never mention raising your minimum, which is key to 'free stats'. Case in point, the SURGE quality Metagenetic Improvement specifically raises both the minimum and the maximum.

[de4dmeta1]

Dont forget that you get a free attribute point for taking the quality which a) normally would cost 10bp and b) doesnt count against your starting attribute limits. If taking the gene therapy during the game (or buy it per nuyen during chargen) it will only higher your natural maximum and not give you any further attribute points.

Genetic Optimization
Genetic optimization permanently increases physical and mental potential by tweaking the genes... Each time a character undergoes gene optimization, he may raise his maximum natural attribute rating (and consequently his maximum augmented attribute rating) in a Physical or Mental attribute of his choice by one point. Each attribute can only be perfected in this manner once.
Like the Exceptional Attribute quality (p.78, SR4), this treatment does not raise the attribute itself—meaning the character must still spend Karma to raise the attribute as usual..."

Taking Genetic Optimization as the nuyen-free genemod for Genetic Heritage doesn't raise your attributes. Only the maximum value you can have.

Kurious - Just because the child is born with the genes doesn't mean they're natural. They aren't mana-triggered expressions like meta-humans or SURGE changelings. The genes in question aren't a result of direct SCIENCE! tinkering, but an indirect effect - which is still unnatural. If it was a naturally occurring mutation (like say, Exceptional Attribute), there wouldn't be a problem, but it's an artificial gene introduced brute-force into the genome.

[Kurious]

Kurious - Just because the child is born with the genes doesn't mean they're natural. They aren't mana-triggered expressions like meta-humans or SURGE changelings. The genes in question aren't a result of direct SCIENCE! tinkering, but an indirect effect - which is still unnatural. If it was a naturally occurring mutation (like say, Exceptional Attribute), there wouldn't be a problem, but it's an artificial gene introduced brute-force into the genome.

Here is where our opinions differ. I see second gen 'tweaked-genes' as being natural to the child, no different then being born with an Exceptional Attribute.

Though, to be fair, from a mechanics POV: without the essence cost, it does cheapen that particular PQ since one cost 20, and the other is only 10. Granted, by the same token... SURGE II does too (to a higher degree), so- meh. Play it how you feel is most fair, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tachi]

If the "Name Givers" were "adjusted" by the horrors (and the dragons, and just about anyone else who got the hankering at one point or another), then how is anyone (except maybe a few million "pure" humans without metagenes) really "natural" without their bodies having adapted to genetic alterations, even if they were done with magic?

[Ravor]

Because magical alternation works at a level of existance that is impossible for Sixth World science to touch, namely on the Astral, if/when humanity is able to shape the Astral with the same expertize as the Horrors and their first spawn, the Dragons then their alternations wouldn't necessarily cost Essence either.

[Cabral]

If the "Name Givers" were "adjusted" by the horrors (and the dragons, and just about anyone else who got the hankering at one point or another), then how is anyone (except maybe a few million "pure" humans without metagenes) really "natural" without their bodies having adapted to genetic alterations, even if they were done with magic?

Because "Renaming" made it natural. That's an unnatural human. Let's rename it an elf. That's a natural Elf. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dr Funfrock]

I'm with Ravor and Cabral on this one. Unfortunately a lot of people here are still trying to think about this scientifically, even though essence loss is a completely unscientific process.

[Kurious]

It's not a matter of thinking scientifically, as it is a matter of thinking logically.

But, for fun, whose to say the second-gen genes are not adopted magically?

Your Parental Genetic Heritage was adopted by you because of a low level magic genetic awakening.


***
Really, for me, it is more a matter of mechanics. The why is secondary to the what. A 10 BP PQ that only saves you 3 to 9 BP; and still cost you essence is silly IMO. It makes more sense to me to be completely free, a natural part of the child's genetic code. Especially since there is no game breaking genetic alterations.

But to each their own. Right?

[Ravor]

The problem is that unless the "magical adoption" includes a Renaming Ceramony than it doesn't matter, the genes would still cost Essence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Kurious]

PQ's

Genetic Heritage: Daredrenaline; AKA: The 'Allsparksgene'.



Done and done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ravor]

Not sure what your first bit is supposed to mean, but how does being on a permament adrenaline high equate to having your warped Magical Essence renamed and brought into the natural order.

[Kurious]

"Doctor, Doctor," The woman cried out, "My son is always running around, getting into things, trying to jump from the kitchen table to the cabinets!

"Whats wrong with him?" She sobs.

After days of test the doctor comes back, "Mrs Smith, I think I have found little Timmy's problem... Did you or his father ever get genework done in the past?"

"Yes, his father was... in the service. He got some work done to help him survive the dangerous missions he would be sent on."

"I see," said the doctor, stroking his chin, "Well, let me show you something."

The doctor opens a file showing a hologram of the double Helix overlaid with the current mapping of the human genome.

"In this region I have found something amazing. Timmy's genetic code has somehow awakened in this region right here," the Doctor points at the various charts, "And has adopted this new code, presumably from his father, when his genetic structure was first forming. I can assure you Mrs Smith, this is quite natural, though your son will always be a bit of a risk taker because of it. I can prescribe some medicine that will sedate him enough to not get himself killed, but in the long run I think it would be better to put the child in gymnastics or some other relatively safe sport that he can express himself in."

"So... So this is in his genetic code?" The woman asked, trying to make sense of it all.

"Absolutely, Mrs Smith," the Doctor said happily, "It is the first of this kind that I have seen; I have named it "The Allsparkgene 245212" and have put it in the system, so other can better find it should another child's genes awaken as yours did. With all the magical awakening at the genetic level, and all the parents of today tweaking their genes; I suspect in twenty to thirty years there will be a lot of little Timmy's expressing the Allsparkgene; and any number of other meta-superior genes."

Substitute any genetherapy you like. The end result is the same. A child's genetic awakening resulting from a parent tweaking their own genes- named and classified by a doctor (to save the poor kid some essence).

[Dr Funfrock]

Genetic restorations such as age rejuvenation and augmented healing are treatments to restore patients back to their native forms.

Phenotype adjustments are more substantial changes, which result in minor Essence losses. These reflect mutations that have been known to occur in nature, but are not natural to the patient. Some of these have even arisen spontaneously or by exposure to mutagens like radiation, pollutants, UV, or even food additives.

Transgenics refers to inserting genes that originate from either non-metahuman species or de novo designs. These can lead to major metabolic or phenotypic alteration. They are considered “foreign� in terms of biological systemic stress and cause Essence loss.

OK, so Augmentation both indicates and demonstrates through the statting that restorations have no effect on essence because they work to return the body to it's proper form.
Transgenics, it is indicated quite firmly in the text, are genetic material that is inhuman in origin. It causes essence loss because of it's inhuman origin; therefore a child who inherits this inhuman material should still suffer essence loss because the genetic material itself is not human in origin, and it is explicity the origin that causes the essence loss.

Phenotype adjustments are the interesting one. It is noted that Phenotype adjustments can occur as a result of exposure to radiation and the like. So the question really is, do mutations that occur as a result of radiation or food additives cause essence loss?

[Ravor]

Sorry, but unless the mother's doctor happened to be a Great Dragon or some other remament from the Fourth World the child is SoL, when a mundane decides that he is going to "rename" guns to cats, you don't have to worry about your trusty predator giving birth to a liter of kittens.

[Kurious]

So your saying a great dragon made elves and dwarves through the UGE; orks and trolls through SURGE?

And all changlings are the products of great dragons fooling around with people at random?

[Ravor]

Well Dr Funfrock I would rule that yes, they did cause damage to the being's Pattern (aka Essence Loss) but that for the majority of the population the damage simply isn't enough to notice at the scaling level Shadowrun has choosen.

[Ravor]

*chuckles* Nice try Kurious.