Genetic Heritage Quality in Augmentation, For that first genetic mod, what does 'free' mean? Options

[Kurious]

Phenotype adjustments are the interesting one. It is noted that Phenotype adjustments can occur as a result of exposure to radiation and the like. So the question really is, do mutations that occur as a result of radiation or food additives cause essence loss?

I think change to an existing gene, via tinkering, radiation or GM foods would cause essence loss.

I feel that if those changes are passed to your children however, their genetic code is natural (read: not altered) and their should be no essence loss for Jr.

Both in a logical sense, and a game mechanic sense Genetic Heritage should be a completely free genetic gift.

[Kurious]

I'm serious Ravor, explain this 'needs a great dragon to be natural' line of yours.

Because, it does not add up in my eyes.

[Ravor]

Ok, then I'll try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Yes, orks, trolls, ect were created by Dragons/Horrors, probably either at the end of the Zeroeth World or perhaps at the begining of the Second World. These changes were then made natural by the magical act of Renaming.

Because these genes require a certain level of Mana to express themselves this means that as the Mana Levels drop below a theshold they go dorment until only human children are born, then as the Mana Levels raise the dorment genes reactivate, resulting in cute elf babies and random teenagers exploding into trogs. SURGE is merely another expression of the same principle, who knows what sort of sick experiments happened in the previous ages of Magic and what magical "mistakes" the Sixth World is going to have to deal with?

Remember that the Mana Levels in the Sixth World are quite simply fucked up from what they are supposed to be in part because of the Ghost Dance and Big A's Astral "Remapping", the Bug Spirits were not supposed to appear this eary in the cycle, and they are one of last signs before the coming scourge.


So basically, until the Sixth World is able to unlock the secret of Renaming little Johnny is SoL. However, there is a huge advanatage that is being overlooked, Little Johnny's kids will never have to worry about the Mana Level dropping to the point where they are unable to pass they genetic advantage to their offspring.

[Dr Funfrock]

I'm serious Ravor, explain this 'needs a great dragon to be natural' line of yours.

Because, it does not add up in my eyes.

OK, what you need to understand here is that we're delving deep into Earthdawn (the deep metaplot fluff for Shadowrun, basically) and looking at the roots of how magic in Shadowrun works.

Naming is a very important concept in Earthdawn. It never really gets brought up in Shadowrun because the only people left who know anything about it are Great Dragons and some IEs.

Basically "Name" in Earthdawn/SR magic is about what a thing truly is. A "True Name". Whereas a normal name is chosen because it fits the thing that is being named, true names work the other way around. If I have a boat, I call it a boat because that word fits what it is. Calling it a motorboat won't make it a motorboat; the name just doesn't fit. If I add an outboard motor to the boat, though, then it becomes a motorboat. The name changes to suit the thing.
With true names it's the opposite. if I change a thing's true name, then the thing itself changes to match the name. So "Renaming" a human to an elf makes them an elf. They have become, at the truest part of their substance, at the core of their existance, an elf. The universe itself recognises them as an elf, because Renaming effectively alters the universe.

If ordinary magic is exploiting a bug in the universe, then think of Name magic as like changing the source code of the universe and recompiling it from scratch. You're not just making use of some small glitch in the existing code; you're completely rewriting the code.

[Cabral]

Dragons aren't the only ones that can rename, IIRC. All metahumans were "Namegivers". But with the passing ages there is no indication that ritual of renaming survived the mana ebb. It likely persists among the Great Dragons and Immortal Elves/Orks/Dwarfs/T'skrang/etc but I don't recall any indication of it otherwise existing in the 6th world.

What remains are ceremonial remnants (ie, christening a ship) that have lost their magical power. Much like a wand is just a stick until you spend the time, karma and know-how to make it a foci, these ceremonies are just words and gestures until the awakened masses figure out how to make them more.

[Ravor]

Yeah, all metahumans were Namegivers.

[Kurious]

Ahhh, Earthdawn metaplotting...

That creates an interesting take on the debate.

I could go on about how I can easily see Genetic Heritage children expressing prior 'named' magic genes; just like someone who SURGES a beak. But, meh... go with what you feel is most fair and just.

Thanks for the info.

[Ravor]

You could say that, but then you are counterdicting the fluff, namely that the child has inherited her parents Sixth World genes.

[Kurious]

Not really, you would just be explaining why the child inherited the parent gene.

[Ravor]

Sorry, but I just finished rereading the Genetic Heritage Edge in Aug and it is clearly talking about the child inheriting Sixth World genetech. If you want to be the carrier of magically altered DNA then you already have an Edge that gives you that, it is called Changling and can be found in Runner's Companion.

[Mordinvan]

Just a few things. 1) Isn't shadowrun explicitly no longer connected to earthdawn? so isn't all this talk of 4th world and name givers effectively meaningless on cannon?
2) If it isn't and all is needed is a namegiver to do a renaming ceremony, which all metahumans are, then what would stop a renaming ceremony from stating a 'cyberzombie's' present state is its natural state and keep it from running amuck.

There might be no living human who knows the ceremony, but odds are someone somewhere wrote it down on a stone tablet.

Also since we almost have the science needed to create life from chemcials in a lab, SR 4 certainly would. Given we could use nucleotide combinations not seen in nature and rewrite an entirely new genetic code for this organism, but it would still be alive and have essence...... I'm not sure how you can justify charging someone essence for being born with genes ancestors several generations ago did not. This would effectively hault evolution, and lead to wide spread extinctions when climates changed.

[Fortune]

As far as I know, nothing has changed as far as the in-game Earthdawn-Shadowrun connection, despite real life issues.

As for stone tablets and the like, remarkably little (surprisingly little in fact) has actually been recovered from previous magical Ages. What has been discovered is typically immediately horded by someone like the Atlantean Foundation rather than being made openly available for use (or even study).

[Fuchs]

As far as I know, nothing has changed as far as the in-game Earthdawn-Shadowrun connection, despite real life issues.

As for stone tablets and the like, remarkably little (surprisingly little in fact) has actually been recovered from previous magical Ages. What has been discovered is typically immediately horded by someone like the Atlantean Foundation rather than being made openly available for use (or even study).

You only need one Technomancer with access to the resonance realms (or whatever the TM metaplanes are called), the right talent and a desire to free information, and all the data gathered from those relics will be available, as long as the were ever entered into a computer. Doesn't matter if the computer ever was connected to the matrix or not.

So, all those hording organisations (and individuals) better never, ever use a computer to store data.

[Draco18s]

So, all those hording organisations (and individuals) better never, ever use a computer to store data.

I don't know if this is explicitly canon, or if it was something my GM made up that sounds plausible, but, anything you store on the Matrix (isolated or otherwise) is inherintly insecure: hackers can get into anything. If you want someone to keep from finding some info, keep it in a book.

[Ravor]

No less believable then the idea that some random Techno would stumble on usable Fourth World data in a realm that houses all data ever digitized, know what it was, and post it to the nets for everyone to find.


As for all metahumans being Namegivers, sure, but that doesn't mean that at current Mana Levels any mundane can invest the Renaming with the necessary mojo juice to alter something's True Name.

[Kurious]

Not really, you would just be explaining why the child inherited the parent gene.

Sorry, but I just finished rereading the Genetic Heritage Edge in Aug and it is clearly talking about the child inheriting Sixth World genetech. If you want to be the carrier of magically altered DNA then you already have an Edge that gives you that, it is called Changling and can be found in Runner's Companion.

Clearly you missed my point.

Genetic Heritage:
... It is thus possible that children have inherited genetically modified genes from one or both progenitors. ...

Here is the what. You are hung up on the why having to be tied into some Earthdawn metaplot event called 'naming'.

To which, I said (or at least attempted to convey), one could say the gene went from parent to child because of a previous 'naming'. I.e. long ago someone 'named' the new genes that science is duplicating now. The child's genetic code accepts the parents altered code only because long ago it was 'named'.

It makes sense to me, but it may not to you. Regardless, I don't use Earthdawn metaplotting... and find it ridiculous to charge the essence for the Genetic Heritage PQ.

Also since we almost have the science needed to create life from chemcials in a lab, SR 4 certainly would. Given we could use nucleotide combinations not seen in nature and rewrite an entirely new genetic code for this organism, but it would still be alive and have essence...... I'm not sure how you can justify charging someone essence for being born with genes ancestors several generations ago did not. This would effectively hault evolution, and lead to wide spread extinctions when climates changed.

Well said.

[AllTheNothing]

It makes sense to me, but it may not to you. Regardless, I don't use Earthdawn metaplotting... and find it ridiculous to charge the essence for the Genetic Heritage PQ.

The problem is that as it was, the quality was highly exploitable: 10 bp and you could have any geneware essencefree, add that little line in the transgenic genemods that states that with the GMs approval geneware can be used to grant bioware bonusses and inherited synapsic booster start to crop up; so to balance its high exploitability they tooke away the very essence (pardon the pun) of the quality making it quite worthless.
In my hopinion the quality needed to be balanced but not butchering its very meaning (not to mention its usefullness) but making the bp cost scale with the essece cost avoided (this would mean that the greater the benefit the greater the cost).
For those who care there's a suggestion of mone in the first page of this thread.
From a pseudo-scentific point of view genes don't determine all the aspect of an individual (twins have the same genoma yet ther are differences, even clones are just very similar to the original but with differences), they play a very big role but they are NOT the only factor, gene give the template but it's the body growth and development that determine what expression genes will have. Essence loss from geneware is mainly dued to metabolical changes, and alterations in energy flux within the body (no it's not the difference in genes themselves, type-O cloned organs have the DNA of Mr. O, so they are foreing genes to anyone else, yet unaugmented type-O organs can be implanted on anyone whithout essence loss), said alterations throw the holistic balance out of .. well balance, but if the body has'n finished its development it can adapt to some degree and make up to part of it (as the body developes the spirit evolves so can regenerate a little; I think GitS has some good points at reguard in the scenes in which the A.I. 2501 askes the Major to merge with it). The logical consequence would be that essence cost is inversely proportional to the time passed betwen the augmentation and the subject reaching adulthood; to simplefy the thing I would say that the seguent rules should do just fine (hey chummers this are just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ... let me ramble a little):
If genemod tooke place after the subject reached the adulthood the full cost must be payed.
If genemod tooke place after the subject reached the adolescence and before adulthood the cost is reduced by 25%.
If genemod tooke place after the birth and before adolescence the cost is reduced by 50%.
If genemod tooke place after the beginning of the cellular differentiation in the embrio and before birth the cost is reduced by 75%.
If genemod tooke place before beginning of the cellular differentiation in the embrio the cost is reduced by 100%.

Just my fragging 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Dr Funfrock]

@Mordinvan - OK, basically the explanation runs that evolution is "natural", tinkering with genes is "unnatural". The trick is, you need to start applying occult reasoning as opposed to scientific reasoning. When we discuss "nature" here we mean "Capital N Nature". Like native American shaman nature (to give just one example). We're talking Gaia theory and mother earth and all of that.

Basically a scientist looks at a piece of DNA taken from a human, and a piece of dna that has been rearranged by a machine, and says "They are both natural, because both come from nature. One was simply adjusted by human intervention, which is no different then if was adjusted by random chance. All that has happened is that the building blocks of the DNA strand have been rearranged." You see to a scientist there is no difference between chance and intentional change because the outcome is the same. But in occult terms there is a difference, because whilst the outcome is the same the intention was different. In occult reasoning words can have power based on their intention, whilst science says that word is a word, no matter what you meant by it. These are the kind of lines you need to think along.
So the Shaman says "This DNA strand took on a new form by what you call 'chance' but what I call the pattern of nature. Evolution is a part of the natural order of things, something woven into the very being of the universe. This other DNA strand took on a new form because of human intervention. This change did not come about as a part of Nature, but through the action human will with the intention of creating this change. Because a Human defied the natural order, this DNA strand is unnatural, and it will be damaging to the person's essence. Even when inherited by a child, that DNA strand will be unnatural, because the child was never meant to inherit it. They were meant to inherit the original, untinkered DNA strand, so that child will now suffer the consequences of their parent's revolt against nature."

@Kurious - OK, you don't use Earthdawn metaplot (by which I take it you mean that you explicitly ignore any metaplot elements originating from Earthdawn). That's perfectly reasonable, and indeed it's clear from the way the Shadowrun fluff is written that it was designed to accomodate GM's making up their own explanations for stuff. The problem is as soon as we start discussing people's personal versions of the setting there's no common point of reference anymore. Any rules interpretation that you make based on your own version of how the Shadowrun universe works is inherently specific to your game. That doesn't mean we can't start batting people's personal interpretations back and forth anyway; it's always cool too see other takes on the setting; but it doesn't mean you can just shoot down people who are trying to explain how the actual canon background works just because you happen to be uninterested in it. Essentially the explanation that Ravor is offering is the one that is best supported by the existing Shadowrun and Earthdawn fluff material.
A really good reference guide for Earthdawn can be found on Ancient History's site: http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/
He covers a lot of the connections between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, so that you don't need to go through all the Earthdawn books yourself.

To address the other point raised by Mordinvan; Earthdawn still forms the basis of the Shadowrun setting. Because the license is now in the hands of Redbrick, any changes that Redbrick make to Earthdawn canon will not carry over into Shadowrun, but as I understand it anything in Earthdawn prior to the license change is still considered canon (unless there have been any specific contradictions that I'm not aware of). Obviously any word from the Catalyst guys would be helpful here.

[Kurious]

The problem is that as it was, the quality was highly exploitable: 10 bp and you could have any geneware essencefree, add that little line in the transgenic genemods that states that with the GMs approval geneware can be used to grant bioware bonusses and inherited synapsic booster start to crop up; so to balance its high exploitability they tooke away the very essence (pardon the pun) of the quality making it quite worthless.
In my hopinion the quality needed to be balanced but not butchering its very meaning (not to mention its usefullness) but making the bp cost scale with the essece cost avoided (this would mean that the greater the benefit the greater the cost).

I remember seeing nanotech having that 'emulate bioware/cyberware' caveat, must have missed it in the geneware section.

Regardless, if a player is trying to cheese 'ware' the GM should say 'no' (sh1t, even saying free of nuyen cost to synaptic boost is ridiculously unbalanced and cheesy). But, when looking at the genetic options in augmentation- I don't think any are game breaking to have for free (both in nuyen and essence).

@Dr Funfrock- thanks for the link. I have no experience with Earthdawn, but will check that out when able.

[Dr Funfrock]

OK, I just did what all of us should have thought of ages ago, and searched for the Augmentation Errata thread.

Direct quote from Synner: "Free" refers to the nuyen cost only.

That at least answer's the OP's question.

[Cabral]

Check post 10. pbangarth beat you to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dr Funfrock]

Huh. I must have missed that.

And here was me thinking that most of the confusion over Naming was down to us not having a clear ruling on the specifics of Genetic Heritage.

[pbangarth]

Nope, the ruling was clear. People just didn't like it.

Peter

[AllTheNothing]

I remember seeing nanotech having that 'emulate bioware/cyberware' caveat, must have missed it in the geneware section.

Regardless, if a player is trying to cheese 'ware' the GM should say 'no' (sh1t, even saying free of nuyen cost to synaptic boost is ridiculously unbalanced and cheesy). But, when looking at the genetic options in augmentation- I don't think any are game breaking to have for free (both in nuyen and essence).

1 bp = 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
As I said the bp cost should be proportional to the essence cost avoided, the increased bp should compensate the money saved.
The problem is in the bp cost.

[Dr Funfrock]

Well, arguably essence is one of the single biggest causes of confusion in all of Shadowrun. There are good explanations for how it all works, but as I've been trying to point out they require you to think in very non-scientific ways, which is something that a lot of roleplayers aren't so comfortable with in my experience.