Custom Traditions, Questions about choosing spirits Options

[hyzmarca]

Somebody borrowed my copy of Street Magic, but isn't there a Faustian tradition? One that has access to shadow spirits? If that's listed as NPC-only, then you can't get it as a PC.

Faustian is a catch-all term for magicians who go overboard making Spirit Pacts. It is likely that some would summon and bind Shadow Spirits, using the rules for summoning and binding Free Spirits, simply for access to Karma Drain via Power Pact. They do not, however, summon them normally.

Incidentally, Faustian Mages are incredibly scary, and Faustian Mundanes aren't that nice, either. They can get absurdly powerful very quickly with a little bit of creativity.

[Muspellsheimr]

While relatively common with Faustian magicians, going 'overboard' with Spirit Pacts is not a requirement. Some Faustians don't use Spirit Pacts at all.

What a Faustian magician is is someone who is cold, calculating, logical. Right & Wrong for a Faustian is not based on morality, but on logical calculations.

As pointed out earlier, Faustian is not an actual tradition, but a description for the Twisted magicians fitting in with my above description. Two of my characters are Faustian mages, following a sort-of hybrid of Black & Hermetic traditions.

[Glyph]

If I did allow a shadow mage, I wouldn't have a problem using the five examples provided as the "types" such a mage could summon. I would prefer to use them as non-exhaustive examples, though. And I wouldn't let such a mage summon shadow spirits and four other types - why? An insect shaman doesn't summon mantis spirits and four other types!

To me, a mage summoning shadow spirits would be closer to an insect shaman than to a traditional mage. He would be dealing with alien intelligences hostile to man. Such a mage would either be seduced by power, like faustian mages are, or would be someone who has fallen prey to the seductive call of these spirits.

It wouldn't fit a lot of campaigns, although you could say that about any of the threats. Since this is going to be a group of evil NPCs, though, that's kind of a moot point.

For running such an NPC, I would treat his relationship with shadow spirits as one where there is a constant (if sometimes subtle) struggle for control, and where the shadow spirits have their own agenda.

[Muspellsheimr]

F+2 Body
F Agility
F+3 Reaction
F Strength
F Charisma
F Intuition
F Logic
F Willpower
F Edge
F Magic

Skills
Assensing, Astral Combat, Con, Counterspelling, Dodge, Intimidation, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers
Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Influence, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers
Compulsion, Confusion, Desire Reflection, Engulf (as Guidance spirit), Fear, Mind Link, Mutable Form, Realistic Form, Shadow Cloak, Silence

This is a Shadow spirit, minus Free Spirit - only abilities (Magician, Karma Drain, Spirit Pact). The powers of the five concepts (note: by the description, these are not actually subtypes like Mantis is a subtype of Insect) are the Optional Powers of such summoned spirits. In comparison to the 10 existing spirits, I do believe this is quite balanced. If I would allow it for a standard tradition, I am unsure. I would certainly allow it with the Spirit Link metamagic, though (for those unaware, just a magical conversion of the Sprite Link echo).

[AllTheNothing]

Shadow is not a type of spirit. Rather, is a class of Free Spirit (a Prestige Class, at that). Shadow Spirits are all members of one of the basic spirit types (or allies) who went free and eventually learned the Karma Drain power. (Alternately, they are Wild spirits who were never conjured by anyone).


You can't conjure a free spirit if you don't know its True Name.

Shadow spiritare a type of free spirit which no magitian has ever been able to find the true name or the metaplane of origin (having not been summoned, as their true name is required for it, they came on the gaiasphere on their own accord), nor was anyone able to bind or learn much of their agenda. All is known is that they are spiritual parassites that drain the victim's spirits's developmant potential (karma) by feeding on emmotions; nasty fraggers indeed.

[Cabral]

An insect shaman doesn't summon mantis spirits and four other types!

I thought Mantis shamans just summoned Female and Lunch spirits ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

An insect shaman doesn't summon mantis spirits and four other types!

I thought Mantis shamans just summoned Female and Lunch spirits ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again, Street Magic not handy; but aren't there subtypes of insect spirits: Worker, Soldier, etc.?

[Neraph]

I thought Mantis shamans just summoned Female and Lunch spirits ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again, Street Magic not handy; but aren't there subtypes of insect spirits: Worker, Soldier, etc.?

Yes.

That aside, refer again to page 146, Street Magic, under the Shadow Spirit header. "Most are free or wild spirits, taking on forms fron the innocuous and friendly-seeming to forms that reflect cultured bogeymen or even the restless dead. These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique." (emphasis added).

I don't know ho you guys can miss the "Most" are free or wild; that means some are summoned.

Not only that but it says many have the karma drain power. Leave off the Karma Drain power for the player-summoned ones and there shouldn't be a problem.

[AllTheNothing]

Yes.

That aside, refer again to page 146, Street Magic, under the Shadow Spirit header. "Most are free or wild spirits, taking on forms fron the innocuous and friendly-seeming to forms that reflect cultured bogeymen or even the restless dead. These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique." (emphasis added).

I don't know ho you guys can miss the "Most" are free or wild; that means some are summoned.

Not only that but it says many have the karma drain power. Leave off the Karma Drain power for the player-summoned ones and there shouldn't be a problem.

Most likely summoned by free spirits with astral gateway power.

[Cabral]

Cain, a female mantis (insect not spirit) eats the male after mating. Hence the "Female and Lunch" joke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That aside, refer again to page 146, Street Magic, under the Shadow Spirit header. "Most are free or wild spirits, taking on forms fron the innocuous and friendly-seeming to forms that reflect cultured bogeymen or even the restless dead. These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique." (emphasis added).

I don't know ho you guys can miss the "Most" are free or wild; that means some are summoned.

I'm not missing anything. Most are free or wild spirits. The rest? Unspecified. Shedim "can be considered free spirits", therefore, they are not Free Spirits (otherwise the statement would be "they are free spirits") and are not Wild Spirits or summoned spirits. What are they really then? Unspecified, but you can treat them like Free Spirits.

So no, that does not mean that the other Shadow Spirits are summoned, least of all by metahumans (see Queen/Mother and Master Shedim spirits for examples of Spirits "summoning" spirits, particularly where the Master Shedim exert control over their lesser brethen).

Are you a GM creating this for your game? Go nuts.

Are you a player asking if this has a rules foundation to stand on (possibly before bringing it for a GM's consideration)? No.

Would I allow it in my games? Likely not. I don't see a need or even a benefit for this tradition. All the flavor, IMO, can be handled by standard spirits with maybe some relatively minor tweaking.

[snowRaven]

Street Magic pg.47: "Spirits and their magical associations are one of the harder elements to devise when designing a new tradition. This is partially because Shadowrun abstracts spirits into 10 basic types (Air, Beast, Earth, Fire, Guardian, Guidance, Man, Plant, Task, and Water),"

No mention of Shadow as a class their, so they would be a no-go in a tradition since they aren't mentioned as an option.

Street Magic pg.147: "These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique."

Street Magic pg. 147: SHADOW SPIRIT TYPES: "The following exampls should be seen as concepts rather than subtypes and are intended to be used as guidelines."

Both of those quotes are 'proof' that so-called Shadow spirits aren't any category at all, except as a very broad generalisation of spirits that are malicious towards metahumans, and thus they would not have the same home plane or in any way be grouped together into a 'basic type' as mentioned in the quote above. Also, compare Toxic spirits which do belong to those 10 basic types.


As for having one basic type spirit for multiple spell categories...that would mean that one summoned spirit could Aid Sorcery for multiple (or all) spell categories - not the best game balance. Also:

SR4 pg.169: MAGIC AND SPIRITS: "Each tradition can master five types of spirits." then: "A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of magic."

So it's NOT the category of magic that is associated with A spirit, its the spirit that is associated with A category of magic. So, a tradition that summons only ONE type of spirit can also only perform ONe category of magic, also known as an Aspected mage.


All that aside, a Shadow Mage tradition can still be created using the RAW:

Combat: Violence spirits (Guardian)
Detection: Muse spirits (Task)
Health: Misery spirits (Man)
Illusion: Nightmare spirits (Beast)
Manipulation: Lust spirits (Guidance)
Drain: Int+Will
Possession tradition, possibly.

Remember that the game names of the spirits are NOT what the mage calls them, but regardless of the exact nature and type of spirit, they belong to one of the 10 basic types. Unless you are an Insect shaman, then the insect mentor gives you a new tradition (as per Street Magic pg. 149). Other mages that summon special spirits (Blood mages) do so through a special Invoking metamagic, that converts one of the basic types of spirit into something else, or (Toxics)have the basic types in a different twisted version.

This would be another easy route for the would-be Shadow mage: use a normal tradition and have the mage learn a special metamagic that lets him convert a normal spirit to some form of 'Shadow' spirit.

[Neraph]

Thank you, snowRaven, you're the first one that actually adressed my questions with suitable rules referencing, other than the infamous BBB pg 55 (or 54, I forget) "DM says No!"

Personally I'd already started coming to the same conclusions, I just didn't see why a Shadow-Only tradition was not allowed by rules. A couple days ago, while reading over the Shadow Spirits section I did see that "every shadow spirit is unique" section, and I was like "dangit."

So I do belive that post puts this theorhetical concept to rest. I do enjoy the idea of Invoking Shadow Spirits though.

EDIT: Imagine coming to some sort of agreement with a Shadow Spirit where you channel it and use its Karma Drain power o.O

[BookWyrm]

Makes me wonder if I should try to re-do my Leviathan (Hellraiser) Totem as a Tradition.....

[Cabral]

Thank you, snowRaven, you're the first one that actually adressed my questions with suitable rules referencing, other than the infamous BBB pg 55 (or 54, I forget) "DM says No!"
<snip>

EDIT: Imagine coming to some sort of agreement with a Shadow Spirit where you channel it and use its Karma Drain power o.O

Ahem. No, snowRaven isn't. Though, snowRaven's post had a bit more tact and was better with page numbers.

Actually, I think Dream Pact has some interesting possibilities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Neraph]

What I was looking for was a logical explanation based in rules that was easy to understand. My problem with the SR4 core book was that it said "... can summon five...", and the work can means that you might be able not to. The word can is not an absolute.

On a second reading, your post actually did answer some of the questions, Cabral. But snowRaven's was more precise and well laid out.