Now, I've looked and looked, but I've yet to find where it says you can't do this. Maybe you guys can help me.

Where exactly does it say that when you make a tradition you have to choose 5 different spirit types? From what I understand, completely by the rules you could have a tradition that only summons Beast Spirits, or Fire Spirits for Combat, but Spirits of Man for the rest of the schools of magic.

There's no reason why you can't. it does limit your shaman as he's only summoning spirits of beasts and the opposition is calling down all 5 elements, but no reason you can't.

Is there a reason you want to so limit it? For role play you might have all the spirits available but they all look the same,. for example a "chrisitan" tradition might have access to all 5 spirits BUT they always appear to the summoner like an angel, regardless of whether they are earth, air, water, etc

Mainly to build a tradition that summons only Shadow spirits. A demonologist, or likeminded mage.

1. Shadow Spirits are not of the normal spirits mages can summon. It's a bit like "I want to summon Mantid spirits for combat ..."

2. A demonologist can always summon standard spirits and adapt the appearance and chosen powers to his view of "demons"

3. If you're creating a custom toxic/twisted tradition, each type of Shadow spirit can be a spirit summoned for each category. If you want this to be balanced against standard traditions, you may have to curb back the Shadow Spirits.

Right, you might be summoning a normal spirit of man, but your particularly dark out look might mean you bring in spirits with a particularly nasty outlook, but they still have just the powers of any normal spirit. Of course used to dark ends that can be pretty damn unpleasant

The black mage tradition in SM allready summons demon-like spirits.

Really though, the real reason traditions summon 5 different types of spirits is for versitility, and a tradition really should summon five different types, especially since a spirit can look pretty much however you want(noting that some powers, like energy aura have to be represented somewhere in the spirits form).

Yes, Im playing a Black Magician and she summons ie fire spirits which look like a Balrog and spirits of man which look like succubi. She believes them as different legions of hell. Spitting around fire doesnt make a spirit an elemental, does it?
btw, it is possible to give them elemental attacks other than the spirit types element. Some combinations (ie water spirit with fire attack) dont fit very well for elementals* but may be a perfect choise for demon-like spirits.

(* Actually you can explain that even for elementals. A water spirit with a fire attack may be a napalm elemental or something like that.)

Stahlkörper, try talking to your GM about switching one of your spirits, maybe fire, to Guardian spirits. A Guardian spirit can take elemental attack as optional powers (a Force 6 could have Fire & Ice in one spirit). Alternatively, you could talk to your GM about switching them on a permanent basis or rearranging the fire spirit's powers so you choose the energy aura (and other powers) when summoned as optional powers.

having versatility in the optional powers really gives you freedom in evoking the Legions of Hell.

What if I don't want versatility? What if summoning only one type of spirit is all my guy needs to do? In the above Shadowmage™ example, why not make each of the 5 listed sub-categories of Shadow spirits the ones for each school of magic?

It seems like the only real reason you guys don't want this to work is because of a potential game balance issue. Any tool, in the wrong hands, is dangerous. And inversely, any tool in the right hands (or mature hands, in this case) can be used for a good story, which is the main point of Shadowrun.

Shadow is not a type of spirit. Rather, is a class of Free Spirit (a Prestige Class, at that). Shadow Spirits are all members of one of the basic spirit types (or allies) who went free and eventually learned the Karma Drain power. (Alternately, they are Wild spirits who were never conjured by anyone).


You can't conjure a free spirit if you don't know its True Name.

If you want to play a mage who only summons one spirit type, go ahead, but any tradition is going to have 5 types. A tradition is bigger then any one magician.

Show me in the rules where it says you have to.

Street Magic, pg. 146, Shadow Spirits: "Most are free or wild spirits..." (emphasis added).

The Shadowrun ruleset does not allow for prestige classes, as there are no classes to begin with. Shadow spirits are their own classification of spirit, as they have unique powers, and are listed in their own subsection.

If it makes you guys feel better, this is what the Tradition would look like.

Combat: Wraith
Detection: Muse
Health: Shade
Illusion: Succubus
Manipulation: Nightmare
Drain: Wil + Log

Better?

Those are spirit concepts, not types. There is no spirit type succubus, a succubus is simply a spirit who drains metahuman energy via sexual acts. You could be a magician who summons spirits of man who look and act like sucubi, but they wouldn't be free/wild spirits and thus wouldn't drain energy for mortals. I once played a black mage who summoned all of their spirits as demons(female demons in fact, man=succubi, air=banshee, water=siren, ect) so I kept the creepy demonoligist feel while still staying withen the bounds of the rules.

In comparison to the 10 existing main spirit types, how balanced do you think the following is?

F+2 Body
F Agility
F+3 Reaction
F Strength
F Charisma
F Intuition
F Logic
F Willpower
F Edge
F Magic

Skills
Assensing, Astral Combat, Con, Counterspelling, Dodge, Intimidation, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers
Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Influence, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers
Compulsion, Confusion, Desire Reflection, Engulf (as Guidance spirit), Fear, Mind Link, Mutable Form, Realistic Form, Shadow Cloak, Silence

How balanced do you think the Beast Spirit is? That's easily the most powerful core spirit.

For somethings it is. For others it isn't. If the thing it's powerful for is what you want to do then it's great. If you happen to want to do something other then what it's good at, then it isn't that great.

The Beast spirit is okay. I still think Spirits of Man are the most powerful. Of course, I may be biased as those are also my favorite.

There's no game balance issue. In fact, I can't see why you'd want to nerf yourself like that.

If you chose to be able to only summon one kind of spirit, then you lose out on all the powers the other types have to offer. With a Spirit of Man, you don't need to sustain a spell, ever. Divination is extremely powerful, but you pretty much need a Spirit of Guidance to use it without spending a metamagic on it.

Y'ever heard the phrase:"It's better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it"? Spirits have a lot to offer you, even the ordinary ones from Street Magic and the BBB. Guardian Spirits, for example, can be Invoked in such a way as to give the entire party Immunity to Normal Weapons. The best your Beast Spirit can get is Paralyzing Howl, which isn't nearly as cool.

I'm not talking about using Beast Spirits though; I'm talking about a tradition using only Shadow Spirits. You can do it with Beast Spirits too.

Personally, I'd use Guardian Spirits FTW. They're freak-sane.

EDIT: The Shadowmage tradition was a theory for a character I'm playing in another GM's campaign that I'll be converting the group to NPC enemies in my campaign.

Shrug. Wouldn't float in my game.

This isn't d20. It's not written for rules lawyers and rules novices alike to say here's where the rules explicitly spell it out. You won't find a lot of things in the rules, that doesn't make them kosher by default. This isn't an insult. I like d20's key-word oriented explicitness (when it works) but I don't want it in my other games.

Now, step 2 of Building a Magical Tradition states as clear as it's going to get the basic spirits you can summon. The 10 types are Air, Beast, Earth, Fire, Guardian, Guidance, Man, Plant, Task, and Water. Shadow is not listed. Shadow spirits are not modified versions of the basic types, unlike Toxics. They share more in common with Insect Spirits (also not on the menu).

You can't do it because it doesn't say you can. It also doesn't say I can't design a tradition that summons alchera instead of spirits. I can't do it because it doesn't say I can ... and because there are no rules for summoning alchera ...

Now, as to an earlier part of your question, can you choose less than 5? No. Page 169 Sr4: "Each Tradition can master five types of spirits." If you choose Beast twice, how many have you mastered in all? Four. You must choose five different spirits.

So, anyway. Sorry to come out of left field like this and tell me if I was too harsh at any point.

If you want a demonologist, a more appropriate (imo) avenue would be the Black Magician plus Spirit Pact (feel free to chose a Shadow Spirit then). Life Pact looks nice or maybe Power Pact with a karma cost.

Somebody borrowed my copy of Street Magic, but isn't there a Faustian tradition? One that has access to shadow spirits? If that's listed as NPC-only, then you can't get it as a PC.

Faustian is one of the sub-types of twisted magician, which have no game mechanics change from normal magicians, though their spirits tend to be actively malevolent and resist binding more. They are not suggested for players, but since their is no rules baggage you can play them if your GM lets you.

That said, twisted mages do not have access to shadow spirits, just mean nasty versions of normal spirits. There is no reference in street magic to any shadow mages who summon shadow spirits, hell there isn't even rules for shadow spirits, just the note that many of them have the energy drain power.

Rules (Guidelines) for Shadow Spirits oare on pages 147-148 with stats being on page 148. (Note by the way, the difference in the stats compared to normal spirits ... no Optional Powers.)

Faustian is a catch-all term for magicians who go overboard making Spirit Pacts. It is likely that some would summon and bind Shadow Spirits, using the rules for summoning and binding Free Spirits, simply for access to Karma Drain via Power Pact. They do not, however, summon them normally.

Incidentally, Faustian Mages are incredibly scary, and Faustian Mundanes aren't that nice, either. They can get absurdly powerful very quickly with a little bit of creativity.

While relatively common with Faustian magicians, going 'overboard' with Spirit Pacts is not a requirement. Some Faustians don't use Spirit Pacts at all.

What a Faustian magician is is someone who is cold, calculating, logical. Right & Wrong for a Faustian is not based on morality, but on logical calculations.

As pointed out earlier, Faustian is not an actual tradition, but a description for the Twisted magicians fitting in with my above description. Two of my characters are Faustian mages, following a sort-of hybrid of Black & Hermetic traditions.

If I did allow a shadow mage, I wouldn't have a problem using the five examples provided as the "types" such a mage could summon. I would prefer to use them as non-exhaustive examples, though. And I wouldn't let such a mage summon shadow spirits and four other types - why? An insect shaman doesn't summon mantis spirits and four other types!

To me, a mage summoning shadow spirits would be closer to an insect shaman than to a traditional mage. He would be dealing with alien intelligences hostile to man. Such a mage would either be seduced by power, like faustian mages are, or would be someone who has fallen prey to the seductive call of these spirits.

It wouldn't fit a lot of campaigns, although you could say that about any of the threats. Since this is going to be a group of evil NPCs, though, that's kind of a moot point.

For running such an NPC, I would treat his relationship with shadow spirits as one where there is a constant (if sometimes subtle) struggle for control, and where the shadow spirits have their own agenda.

This is a Shadow spirit, minus Free Spirit - only abilities (Magician, Karma Drain, Spirit Pact). The powers of the five concepts (note: by the description, these are not actually subtypes like Mantis is a subtype of Insect) are the Optional Powers of such summoned spirits. In comparison to the 10 existing spirits, I do believe this is quite balanced. If I would allow it for a standard tradition, I am unsure. I would certainly allow it with the Spirit Link metamagic, though (for those unaware, just a magical conversion of the Sprite Link echo).

Shadow spiritare a type of free spirit which no magitian has ever been able to find the true name or the metaplane of origin (having not been summoned, as their true name is required for it, they came on the gaiasphere on their own accord), nor was anyone able to bind or learn much of their agenda. All is known is that they are spiritual parassites that drain the victim's spirits's developmant potential (karma) by feeding on emmotions; nasty fraggers indeed.

I thought Mantis shamans just summoned Female and Lunch spirits ...

Again, Street Magic not handy; but aren't there subtypes of insect spirits: Worker, Soldier, etc.?

Yes.

That aside, refer again to page 146, Street Magic, under the Shadow Spirit header. "Most are free or wild spirits, taking on forms fron the innocuous and friendly-seeming to forms that reflect cultured bogeymen or even the restless dead. These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique." (emphasis added).

I don't know ho you guys can miss the "Most" are free or wild; that means some are summoned.

Not only that but it says many have the karma drain power. Leave off the Karma Drain power for the player-summoned ones and there shouldn't be a problem.

Most likely summoned by free spirits with astral gateway power.

Cain, a female mantis (insect not spirit) eats the male after mating. Hence the "Female and Lunch" joke.

I'm not missing anything. Most are free or wild spirits. The rest? Unspecified. Shedim "can be considered free spirits", therefore, they are not Free Spirits (otherwise the statement would be "they are free spirits") and are not Wild Spirits or summoned spirits. What are they really then? Unspecified, but you can treat them like Free Spirits.

So no, that does not mean that the other Shadow Spirits are summoned, least of all by metahumans (see Queen/Mother and Master Shedim spirits for examples of Spirits "summoning" spirits, particularly where the Master Shedim exert control over their lesser brethen).

Are you a GM creating this for your game? Go nuts.

Are you a player asking if this has a rules foundation to stand on (possibly before bringing it for a GM's consideration)? No.

Would I allow it in my games? Likely not. I don't see a need or even a benefit for this tradition. All the flavor, IMO, can be handled by standard spirits with maybe some relatively minor tweaking.

Street Magic pg.47: "Spirits and their magical associations are one of the harder elements to devise when designing a new tradition. This is partially because Shadowrun abstracts spirits into 10 basic types (Air, Beast, Earth, Fire, Guardian, Guidance, Man, Plant, Task, and Water),"

No mention of Shadow as a class their, so they would be a no-go in a tradition since they aren't mentioned as an option.

Street Magic pg.147: "These are collectively referred to as shadows, but in fact each such spirit is unique."

Street Magic pg. 147: SHADOW SPIRIT TYPES: "The following exampls should be seen as concepts rather than subtypes and are intended to be used as guidelines."

Both of those quotes are 'proof' that so-called Shadow spirits aren't any category at all, except as a very broad generalisation of spirits that are malicious towards metahumans, and thus they would not have the same home plane or in any way be grouped together into a 'basic type' as mentioned in the quote above. Also, compare Toxic spirits which do belong to those 10 basic types.


As for having one basic type spirit for multiple spell categories...that would mean that one summoned spirit could Aid Sorcery for multiple (or all) spell categories - not the best game balance. Also:

SR4 pg.169: MAGIC AND SPIRITS: "Each tradition can master five types of spirits." then: "A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of magic."

So it's NOT the category of magic that is associated with A spirit, its the spirit that is associated with A category of magic. So, a tradition that summons only ONE type of spirit can also only perform ONe category of magic, also known as an Aspected mage.


All that aside, a Shadow Mage tradition can still be created using the RAW:

Combat: Violence spirits (Guardian)
Detection: Muse spirits (Task)
Health: Misery spirits (Man)
Illusion: Nightmare spirits (Beast)
Manipulation: Lust spirits (Guidance)
Drain: Int+Will
Possession tradition, possibly.

Remember that the game names of the spirits are NOT what the mage calls them, but regardless of the exact nature and type of spirit, they belong to one of the 10 basic types. Unless you are an Insect shaman, then the insect mentor gives you a new tradition (as per Street Magic pg. 149). Other mages that summon special spirits (Blood mages) do so through a special Invoking metamagic, that converts one of the basic types of spirit into something else, or (Toxics)have the basic types in a different twisted version.

This would be another easy route for the would-be Shadow mage: use a normal tradition and have the mage learn a special metamagic that lets him convert a normal spirit to some form of 'Shadow' spirit.

Thank you, snowRaven, you're the first one that actually adressed my questions with suitable rules referencing, other than the infamous BBB pg 55 (or 54, I forget) "DM says No!"

Personally I'd already started coming to the same conclusions, I just didn't see why a Shadow-Only tradition was not allowed by rules. A couple days ago, while reading over the Shadow Spirits section I did see that "every shadow spirit is unique" section, and I was like "dangit."

So I do belive that post puts this theorhetical concept to rest. I do enjoy the idea of Invoking Shadow Spirits though.

EDIT: Imagine coming to some sort of agreement with a Shadow Spirit where you channel it and use its Karma Drain power o.O

Makes me wonder if I should try to re-do my Leviathan (Hellraiser) Totem as a Tradition.....

Ahem. No, snowRaven isn't. Though, snowRaven's post had a bit more tact and was better with page numbers.

Actually, I think Dream Pact has some interesting possibilities

What I was looking for was a logical explanation based in rules that was easy to understand. My problem with the SR4 core book was that it said "... can summon five...", and the work can means that you might be able not to. The word can is not an absolute.

On a second reading, your post actually did answer some of the questions, Cabral. But snowRaven's was more precise and well laid out.