Shadowrun - "On the Run.", Changed my mind about it... Options

[SincereAgape]

So this past Sunday I ran the first part of "On the Run." for a new SR meetup group. After a debate I decided to run "On the Run." for the group because it was essentially made for new GMs and new players to the 4th edition, which our gaming group mostly consists of thus far (except for one player.)

After first reading the module I was less then enthusiastic about running the adventure. Aside from the last scene everything else seemed either very linear. Upon first reading about the run the mission appeared to be a needle in the haystack story. The plot seems kind of silly as well. Thank God I was proven wrong about the situation. My players and I absolutely had a WONDERFUL time playing this adventure (thus far, as we're only about half way through.) Big props go out to Robyn-King Nitschke for writing this supplement. The "Tell it to the Straight" readings were very well done, and Nitschke and they do a good job covering a lot of basis of how to handle the Shadowrunners. I also liked the fact that the writer gives the GM just enough hints and suggestions to help the characters move along with the needle in the haystack like chase.

Anyone who is new to GMing SR (And it can be a challenge with so many modifiers, rules, and aspects of the game ouy vei see hacking) and wants to run an introductory adventure to their players I suggest running this module. Don't be deceived when you first read the adventure, because I was. Don't judge the supplement until you've actually played it with your PCs.

[Cain]

I Disagree.

The book is an excellent GM aid, that much is undisputable. But as an adventure, it's only so-so. It focuses way too much on deckers, it's got plot holes, it requires that the team be unprofessional in order to reach the second half. And finally, it's got Elvis the Elder Vampire as the big mover and shaker. Yes, I know about the history of Jetblack; but he could have been handled much better than that!

I've run the adventure twice, and both times took some serious prodding on my part to make the whole thing happen.

Thanks to Adam, I give it a B-minus. I have to give props to him, for doing what he did. It still goes down as one of the worst printing experiences I've ever had, but you need to respect Adam's personal offer of help.

[SincereAgape]

Cain, I read your review of the supplement on RPGnet and took your words into consideration before running the adventure. Are you taking into account though that the entire adventure is meant for new Players, Storytellers, and New IC Shadowrunners. On the Run is not intended for experienced characters such as a Argent, Doc Raven, Ryan Mercury, or Tommy Talon. Instead, it's more of a Kellan Colt, Dennis Falk, or Sam Verner type of Shadowrun. A GM can rewrite the story enough to transition/interlock the scenes together, but put that aside.

Enter the mind of a brand new Shadowrunner on his or her first run, it is plausible to have at least a few members of the team try and inspect the contents of the disc, especially if they conduct the legwork right away. This is only confirmed if the characters were able to hear and be compassionate to the story of Kerwin Loomis. It is not entirely out of the realm to have new runners consider other offers for the information as well, especially upon hearing the history of the item. When push comes to shove, even a Jack Skater or Argent would have second thoughts about taking the disk back to the Johnson if they were able to find everything that is going on in the "Behind the Scene's" written portion of the story.

By the way it's Jim Morrison, not Elvis. It just sounds better.

[Cain]

I have taken into account that it's for new players/characters. The issue here is that you're teaching the players and characters that it's OK to screw over a Johnson. For a better introductory run, I recommend "Parliament of Thieves", which has several plot twists you can add and gives the team the opportunity to betray their Johnson, with the possibilities for penalties further down the line. I'm running it now on RPOL, and the team chose to stay with their Johnson, without ruining the run.

The attitude professional Shadowrunners should have is "It's none of my business." You do the job, you get paid, you walk away. You only look at what you have if it's bringing a lot of trouble down on your heads, and Kermit isn't doing that. As for knowing the whole picture, the book even says that the Shadowrunners should never accomplish that-- they will never talk to Jetblack, nor see him, nor be told by anyone that he's alive. I think that while there's a lot of good info in the "Behind the scenes" section, a lot of it is information that the PC's have no chance of discovering. There's just a little too much emphasis on those elements, which is only entertaining to a GM.

And while some may consider it to be more or less of a problem, I still have issues with the fact that a decker can accomplish most of the adventure by himself. A face is handy for the first part, so his role isn't abnormal; but mages won't have anything special to do until they visit the mansion.

By the way it's Jim Morrison, not Elvis. It just sounds better.

I joke a bit, but there's a running gag in Shadowrun. Someone in a sourcebook will pop up, claiming to have seen Jetblack. This is just like the modern-day Elvis sightings, so I compare Jetblack to Elvis.

[SincereAgape]

The attitude professional Shadowrunners should have is "It's none of my business." You do the job, you get paid, you walk away. You only look at what you have if it's bringing a lot of trouble down on your heads, and Kermit isn't doing that. As for knowing the whole picture, the book even says that the Shadowrunners should never accomplish that-- they will never talk to Jetblack, nor see him, nor be told by anyone that he's alive. I think that while there's a lot of good info in the "Behind the scenes" section, a lot of it is information that the PC's have no chance of discovering. There's just a little too much emphasis on those elements, which is only entertaining to a GM.

I joke a bit, but there's a running gag in Shadowrun. Someone in a sourcebook will pop up, claiming to have seen Jetblack. This is just like the modern-day Elvis sightings, so I compare Jetblack to Elvis.

I disagree and agree with the "It's none of my business." attitude. It is the type of attitude Shadowrunners should be having, especially one's trying to make a rep for themselves. BUT there is that human part of us all that upon struggles with the moral conundrum of having to deal with the consequences of some of our actions. A lot of the Shadowrun novels deal with the dilemma of following through on a dirty Johnson's run. It's interesting to see how the SR products in the past have always incorporated morality into the story, and how most SR groups I have played in have taken the "Complete the job, even it ends up meaning butchering the life of innocents or shooting a mother in the head while her children watch."

But you're right. On the Run is not the best written adventure out there, and the second half of the story (And from I am reading the better part of the story.) does require the Shadowrunners to take a small bite of the forbidden fruit from the tree of life. The thing about On the Run, is that if they do though, they will find a bitter ending and be cast out of the proverbial Eden. The way I see it, newbie runners have to learn about professionalism and sometimes it is through the hard way. Is it improbable for a IC newbie runner to be curious about the prize of his or her first run with all of the emotions running from the excitement and adventure? Even though it is not supposed to happen, it is understandable. Small note. What the runners have the potential to discover from the Behind the Scenes portion is a small planted seed to have a small bit of morality into the equation (Not enough, but there is the seed.)

Before playing the adventure on Sunday night I had the same thought process as you Cain (And rightfully so). But it did not detour from the fact that the players had a wonderful time with the adventure, and we only played the first part of the story (We ended at the Coda Bar). "On the Run." definitely has it's flaws with the plot and writing as you point out in this thread and your review. But I believe it works if played by a group of novice runners, PC's new to the 4th edition, and especially a new GM to Shadowrun or Shadowrun 4th. Is it the best adventure out there? Heck no. But does it work? That's what I am trying to argue.

And about Elvis and Jet Black. I gotcha, I was just pulling your leg a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Before playing the adventure on Sunday night I had the same thought process as you Cain (And rightfully so). But it did not detour from the fact that the players had a wonderful time with the adventure, and we only played the first part of the story (We ended at the Coda Bar). "On the Run." definitely has it's flaws with the plot and writing as you point out in this thread and your review. But I believe it works if played by a group of novice runners, PC's new to the 4th edition, and especially a new GM to Shadowrun or Shadowrun 4th. Is it the best adventure out there? Heck no. But does it work? That's what I am trying to argue.

Oh, I never said it doesn't work. I do stand by the statement that there are others that work much better, though. We have Shadowrun Missions as a sterling example of introductory adventures that do everything On the Run tries, only better. Aaron Pavao has several adventures on his site that I'm looking into. And all these are absolutely free! I wouldn't spend money on On the Run, because there's so much better out there! (And with fewer printing issues, I might add. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

On the Run is very good at certain things. It's dead-easy for a new GM, and serves as an excellent reference to the BBB. Every rule is cross-indexed with a page reference to the main rulebook, something you seldom see. And there are some fun scenes. But the overall plotline, and how it all fits together, doesn't really work as well as it should.

[Wesley Street]

With the amount you spend on ink in printing a PDF you might as well just buy the book. I can almost guarantee you had printing trouble with the PDF because you sent a file to a commercial mass printer that didn't have enough RAM to handle it. The PDFs are layered and marked up to use the bookmarks system. I doubt it was Fanpro's intention to create a digital file for casual printing. Props to Adam for helping out though.

I also don't understand this mentality of "this isn't what a professional Shadowrunner would do!" Like there's some kind codified set of behavior that every PC must abide by in order to qualify for "Shadowrunner" status. On the Run encourages players to be curious, which makes for a fun game. If all players care about is leveling up and making cash and have no interest in actually playing in the world... that's a bit boring.

[Ravor]

Personally I LIKE the idea that the adventure encourages a shred of Pink Mohawkism by denying the Ice Cold Pros access to the rest of the run.

[Cain]

With the amount you spend on ink in printing a PDF you might as well just buy the book. I can almost guarantee you had printing trouble with the PDF because you sent a file to a commercial mass printer that didn't have enough RAM to handle it. The PDFs are layered and marked up to use the bookmarks system. I doubt it was Fanpro's intention to create a digital file for casual printing. Props to Adam for helping out though.

Free download using my credits on DriveThruRpg.com, sp price wasn't an issue. I buy/obtain a lot of pdfs, and many game companies bundle a print-friendly version with the full, bookmarked one. It's not that difficult. If you want the full story, check out the link above: Kinkos has massive amounts of RAM in their machines, and they had trouble with it.

I also don't understand this mentality of "this isn't what a professional Shadowrunner would do!" Like there's some kind codified set of behavior that every PC must abide by in order to qualify for "Shadowrunner" status. On the Run encourages players to be curious, which makes for a fun game. If all players care about is leveling up and making cash and have no interest in actually playing in the world... that's a bit boring.

Being a shadowrunner implies that you're a professional. It implies that you're a cut above a street gang, that you are not pond scum out for a quick buck. There is a codified set of behaviors for them, and among these is: "Never betray a Johnson until he betrays you."

[Wesley Street]

I buy/obtain a lot of pdfs, and many game companies bundle a print-friendly version with the full, bookmarked one. It's not that difficult. If you want the full story, check out the link above: Kinkos has massive amounts of RAM in their machines, and they had trouble with it.

I read the story. You tried to print the full, bookmarked one and it gummed up the works. I did that in college a few times. I do think that Catalyst should either offer flattened versions or put a big old disclaimer on BattleCorps that reads: "These files are designed for eBook readers and laptops and are not meant for printing."

Being a shadowrunner implies that you're a professional. It implies that you're a cut above a street gang, that you are not pond scum out for a quick buck. There is a codified set of behaviors for them, and among these is: "Never betray a Johnson until he betrays you."

Uh oh! UH OH! Are you saying if I'm a PC I have to be a "professional"? Are you telling me how to play Shadowrun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

I read the story. You tried to print the full, bookmarked one and it gummed up the works. I did that in college a few times. I do think that Catalyst should either offer flattened versions or put a big old disclaimer on BattleCorps that reads: "These files are designed for eBook readers and laptops and are not meant for printing."

That's one of the points I made. Especially for things that are likely to be printed out, such as the Quick Start rules, there should be a print-friendly version.

Uh oh! UH OH! Are you saying if I'm a PC I have to be a "professional"? Are you telling me how to play Shadowrun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, thpthpthpthp (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Adam]

I read the story. You tried to print the full, bookmarked one and it gummed up the works. I did that in college a few times. I do think that Catalyst should either offer flattened versions or put a big old disclaimer on BattleCorps that reads: "These files are designed for eBook readers and laptops and are not meant for printing."

Even though a tiny minority of people have reported issues printing our PDF files [and I've never experienced such issues myself], I've switched over to a new method of making PDF files, which is more work on our end but creates PDF files with no transparency, so they behave better in 3rd party PDF readers. Nobody has reported any issues printing out any of these books [Ghost Cartels, Unwired, the revised Arsenal, etc].

[SincereAgape]

. Nobody has reported any issues printing out any of these books [Ghost Cartels, Unwired, the revised Arsenal, etc].

By the way. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended professional rating for the runners for the book? I assume that it is not for beginning Shadowrunners.

[Cain]

To be fair, Adam (and not to disparage the excellent work you do), the original pdf of SR4 was an absolute nightmare for everyone, as you recall. I believe it had something like 12+ layers to it, which gummed up the works even at professional printers. I also remember you pulling an all-nighter fixing it, so that's just more props to you. But from the very beginning, a lot more than a "tiny minority" of people have reported printing problems. I'll grant that you fix them as fast as you find them, which is extremely cool.

I'll also add that my copy of Unwired went off with minimal problems, but that was at a professional printer; I believe Office Max. I haven't tried one on my home machine yet. However, in the meantime, I'll take you at your word.

[Adam]

So Cain, you're saying that I'm awesome and we work hard to fix problems when we arise, and then don't make them again later? Thanks!

[Tiger Eyes]

By the way. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended professional rating for the runners for the book? I assume that it is not for beginning Shadowrunners.

Beginning shadowrunners (400 bp) should be able to run Ghost Cartels. As a GM, you might decide to scale down the opposition or lighten up some of the runs. Or you may point out to your runners that running away from the Big Bad Guys is not necessarily a Bad Thing ™. And you can also (and probably should) award karma through the entire campaign, so characters who start at the beginning should grow more competent as the campaign progresses and the tasks become more difficult. After all, the campaign covers, in-game, the better part of a year. Newbies who start it at the beginning and survive until the end should come out with a lot of experience (and scars. Lots of scars.).

[Cain]

So Cain, you're saying that I'm awesome and we work hard to fix problems when we arise, and then don't make them again later? Thanks!

No, I'm saying you're *very* awesome. Otherwise, pretty much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I totally agree with SincereAgape here, On the Run was very awesome for newb GMs and Runners.

Cain, you and I have gone back and forth between about how much info the runners can derive from just holding the disk, and how professional it is to carry on to the second part of the run, but I have to say that it was part of the contract to track down any copies or other versions of the disk/data that could have existed as well, so there is more than a logical jump (one would even go as far as to say a "professional" jump) from the first half of the adventure to the second half of the adventure. Also, if anyone assumes Kerwin was a D-bag, like he is, he could have given them a bum or non-functional disc and the runners would HAVE to check it out in order to save face and look professional in front of the Johnson if they turned in garbage and got the big FAIL from Mr. J.

Not only that, but I ran the adventure for a group of roleplaying veterans and one newb who were notorious for destroying campaign modules and pre-made adventures all across the board. There was only one instance where I had to improvise on the fly (our Troll Bounty Hunter has a prejudice against the corruption of youth, so the BTLhead kiddies outside Delphia's place set him off and she ran. Luckily our rigger was super fly in her van and chased down her scoot. Delphia didn't have any driving skills though, so I assumed she'd be at a hobbyist level at cycling and gave her a rating 2 pilot ground craft skill and a spec for motorcycles following the rock chick bike riding thrill seeker stereotypes out of cyberpunk movies and anime). Everything else went as planned mostly because the players used a logical thought process and process of elimination to get to the end. It was very point A to point B, but it didn't require anything they could have likely missed, just logical thought. It's a perfect introduction into the world of SR for beginners as well.

[Cain]

Trying to track down "all copies" of a disk is completely impossible. Even if you know what's on it, you could never know whose hands it passed through. So, that was twice IME blown off as Johnson letting off smoke. As it stood, I have to do alot of fancy stepping to get the team to take the job in the first place, simply because they thought that tracking down a single optical disk was a definite "needle in a haystack" raw deal. Even first-time players felt they were getting screwed. I know that even when I went through it, I negotiated that stupid clause out of the deal.

As for the rest: you consider the fact that a group of players couldn't break it a good thing? When players "break" an adventure, that's because they're being creative and involved in it. I hadn't thought of it as a "glass tunnel" type of deal, but now that you mention it, there are elements of it, aren't there? You pretty much have to go from A to B to C, in order, with no room for deviation.

[SincereAgape]

Beginning shadowrunners (400 bp) should be able to run Ghost Cartels. As a GM, you might decide to scale down the opposition or lighten up some of the runs. Or you may point out to your runners that running away from the Big Bad Guys is not necessarily a Bad Thing ™. And you can also (and probably should) award karma through the entire campaign, so characters who start at the beginning should grow more competent as the campaign progresses and the tasks become more difficult. After all, the campaign covers, in-game, the better part of a year. Newbies who start it at the beginning and survive until the end should come out with a lot of experience (and scars. Lots of scars.).

Thanks for the update Tiger Eyes. Second and Third Questions.

2. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended size of the team? Given the fact that someone can adjust the mission to accomendate the number of runners. Does the story chronicle the events of one Shadowrun team and their journey or is this a multiple facet operation (Drug Smuggling) involving numerous parts of the body, ergo more then one Shadowrun team. I ask because there are more players showing interest in the meetup group and I am thinking about picking up Ghost Cartels and possibly run it with another GM for say around 8-10 runners.

3. Is it a linear point A to B to C type of module like On the Run?

Thanks in advance.
Agape.

[Tiger Eyes]

Thanks for the update Tiger Eyes. Second and Third Questions.

2. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended size of the team? Given the fact that someone can adjust the mission to accomendate the number of runners. Does the story chronicle the events of one Shadowrun team and their journey or is this a multiple facet operation (Drug Smuggling) involving numerous parts of the body, ergo more then one Shadowrun team. I ask because there are more players showing interest in the meetup group and I am thinking about picking up Ghost Cartels and possibly run it with another GM for say around 8-10 runners.

If you want 8 - 10 players, go for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My group is 4 players (and has been for a decade) so I tend to like the number 4. I think it depends on what you feel comfortable with. You can play it with each group doing different facets. You could even (if you have 2 GMs) play with each GM taking 4-5 players, and running each other for opposing sides (ie, the Drug Cartel's runners and Interpol's runners) - that'd be amusing. In fact, each adventure could be completed by a different group. Or completed by one group who survives the entire year.

3. Is it a linear point A to B to C type of module like On the Run?

I don't believe it is linear. Just because you complete run A, you don't have to do run B to get to run Z. Or C. Or E. You could just do the runs in one city and then nothing else. You could do some from each city. You could have a different group of characters for each city. You could spend months doing the side adventures presented for the different cities. Heck, you could decide to do a tour of Africa instead of the ones presented. Or Europe.

Maybe some of those who've read it can chime in and say if they felt it was linear or not.

[Synner]

2. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended size of the team? Given the fact that someone can adjust the mission to accomendate the number of runners. Does the story chronicle the events of one Shadowrun team and their journey or is this a multiple facet operation (Drug Smuggling) involving numerous parts of the body, ergo more then one Shadowrun team. I ask because there are more players showing interest in the meetup group and I am thinking about picking up Ghost Cartels and possibly run it with another GM for say around 8-10 runners.

Ghost Cartels introduces a new take on Shadowrun campaigns which is exceptionally flexible while at the same time giving you the specifics to bring things to the table with the least amount of hassle. The overall campaign is broken down into 3 story arcs (one set in Seattle, one taking the characters around the Pacific Rim, and one set in LA and South America) which may be played independently of one another or as a single huge campaign. Additionally the way the campaign is mapped out allows individual gamemasters to add any number of their own adventures and "side quests" to each of the story arcs. The book also contains a large fiction section contextualizing events and providing a variety of plothooks and seeds for enterprising gamemasters to develop on their own.

3. Is it a linear point A to B to C type of module like On the Run?

Ghost Cartels is not in fact a "module" or stand alone adventure like "On the Run," it is a full blown campaign made up of numerous interconnected adventures. These adventures are presented as Adventure Frameworks (which we also used in Emergence, System Failure, and the SR3 "track"-style campaigns before that). Adventure frameworks are adventure outlines, featuring simple scene by scene breakdowns and descriptions of events and NPCs, rather than fully detailed scenes write ups. This allows them to be easily adapted to most games, but requires more work on the part of the gamemaster to round out in play. To help with that issue though, and unlike similar books in the past, for Ghost Cartels we've taken a page from the modules and included location descriptions and maps, as well as fully stated and easy to reference NPCs and Grunts to save the gamemaster time.

[Cain]

Ghost Cartels is not in fact a "module" or stand alone adventure like "On the Run," it is a full blown campaign made up of numerous interconnected adventures. These adventures are presented as Adventure Frameworks (which we also used in Emergence, System Failure, and the SR3 "track"-style campaigns before that). Adventure frameworks are adventure outlines, featuring simple scene by scene breakdowns and descriptions of events and NPCs, rather than fully detailed scenes write ups.

The problem here is that System Failure and Emergence aren't adventures, they're lists of things that happen that the PC's can do absolutely nothing about. The GM is instead encouraged to write missions that tangentally dance around the indestructable plot points. In fact, those two are about useless and adventure books, and should be considered to be sourcebooks instead.

More of the same? Great.

[SincereAgape]

*Chants* Ar-ti-facts! Ar-ti-facts! Ar-ti-facts!

[Synner]

The problem here is that System Failure and Emergence aren't adventures, they're lists of things that happen that the PC's can do absolutely nothing about. The GM is instead encouraged to write missions that tangentally dance around the indestructable plot points. In fact, those two are about useless and adventure books, and should be considered to be sourcebooks instead. More of the same? Great.

Enough people have played and enjoyed both, that I'm not in the least bit worried that some people dislike them. Both portray setting events that are out of the players hands, but which drag the characters along because they affect the entire world around them and everyone they know. It's a big world and big events happen that characters have no control over. The same could be said for any major campaign including Brainscan and the Harlequin's campaigns. Plenty of people enjoy such "campaign frameworks."

As for Ghost Cartels, given that it features a new format that combines elements (good or bad, depending on your perspective) of the event/track campaigns (like MobWar), episodic campaigns (like Brainscan), and standalone adventures (like On the Run), making the assumption it is just like System Failure or Emergence would be a mistake.

Indeed, the only negative critique that I've seen (out of several dozen) was from someone who would have prefered the Emergence event book format, which suggests to me that you're jumping to the wrong conclusions.