So this past Sunday I ran the first part of "On the Run." for a new SR meetup group. After a debate I decided to run "On the Run." for the group because it was essentially made for new GMs and new players to the 4th edition, which our gaming group mostly consists of thus far (except for one player.)

After first reading the module I was less then enthusiastic about running the adventure. Aside from the last scene everything else seemed either very linear. Upon first reading about the run the mission appeared to be a needle in the haystack story. The plot seems kind of silly as well. Thank God I was proven wrong about the situation. My players and I absolutely had a WONDERFUL time playing this adventure (thus far, as we're only about half way through.) Big props go out to Robyn-King Nitschke for writing this supplement. The "Tell it to the Straight" readings were very well done, and Nitschke and they do a good job covering a lot of basis of how to handle the Shadowrunners. I also liked the fact that the writer gives the GM just enough hints and suggestions to help the characters move along with the needle in the haystack like chase.

Anyone who is new to GMing SR (And it can be a challenge with so many modifiers, rules, and aspects of the game ouy vei see hacking) and wants to run an introductory adventure to their players I suggest running this module. Don't be deceived when you first read the adventure, because I was. Don't judge the supplement until you've actually played it with your PCs.

I Disagree.

The book is an excellent GM aid, that much is undisputable. But as an adventure, it's only so-so. It focuses way too much on deckers, it's got plot holes, it requires that the team be unprofessional in order to reach the second half. And finally, it's got Elvis the Elder Vampire as the big mover and shaker. Yes, I know about the history of Jetblack; but he could have been handled much better than that!

I've run the adventure twice, and both times took some serious prodding on my part to make the whole thing happen.

Thanks to Adam, I give it a B-minus. I have to give props to him, for doing what he did. It still goes down as one of the worst printing experiences I've ever had, but you need to respect Adam's personal offer of help.

Cain, I read your review of the supplement on RPGnet and took your words into consideration before running the adventure. Are you taking into account though that the entire adventure is meant for new Players, Storytellers, and New IC Shadowrunners. On the Run is not intended for experienced characters such as a Argent, Doc Raven, Ryan Mercury, or Tommy Talon. Instead, it's more of a Kellan Colt, Dennis Falk, or Sam Verner type of Shadowrun. A GM can rewrite the story enough to transition/interlock the scenes together, but put that aside.

Enter the mind of a brand new Shadowrunner on his or her first run, it is plausible to have at least a few members of the team try and inspect the contents of the disc, especially if they conduct the legwork right away. This is only confirmed if the characters were able to hear and be compassionate to the story of Kerwin Loomis. It is not entirely out of the realm to have new runners consider other offers for the information as well, especially upon hearing the history of the item. When push comes to shove, even a Jack Skater or Argent would have second thoughts about taking the disk back to the Johnson if they were able to find everything that is going on in the "Behind the Scene's" written portion of the story.

By the way it's Jim Morrison, not Elvis. It just sounds better.

I have taken into account that it's for new players/characters. The issue here is that you're teaching the players and characters that it's OK to screw over a Johnson. For a better introductory run, I recommend "Parliament of Thieves", which has several plot twists you can add and gives the team the opportunity to betray their Johnson, with the possibilities for penalties further down the line. I'm running it now on RPOL, and the team chose to stay with their Johnson, without ruining the run.

The attitude professional Shadowrunners should have is "It's none of my business." You do the job, you get paid, you walk away. You only look at what you have if it's bringing a lot of trouble down on your heads, and Kermit isn't doing that. As for knowing the whole picture, the book even says that the Shadowrunners should never accomplish that-- they will never talk to Jetblack, nor see him, nor be told by anyone that he's alive. I think that while there's a lot of good info in the "Behind the scenes" section, a lot of it is information that the PC's have no chance of discovering. There's just a little too much emphasis on those elements, which is only entertaining to a GM.

And while some may consider it to be more or less of a problem, I still have issues with the fact that a decker can accomplish most of the adventure by himself. A face is handy for the first part, so his role isn't abnormal; but mages won't have anything special to do until they visit the mansion.


I joke a bit, but there's a running gag in Shadowrun. Someone in a sourcebook will pop up, claiming to have seen Jetblack. This is just like the modern-day Elvis sightings, so I compare Jetblack to Elvis.

I disagree and agree with the "It's none of my business." attitude. It is the type of attitude Shadowrunners should be having, especially one's trying to make a rep for themselves. BUT there is that human part of us all that upon struggles with the moral conundrum of having to deal with the consequences of some of our actions. A lot of the Shadowrun novels deal with the dilemma of following through on a dirty Johnson's run. It's interesting to see how the SR products in the past have always incorporated morality into the story, and how most SR groups I have played in have taken the "Complete the job, even it ends up meaning butchering the life of innocents or shooting a mother in the head while her children watch."

But you're right. On the Run is not the best written adventure out there, and the second half of the story (And from I am reading the better part of the story.) does require the Shadowrunners to take a small bite of the forbidden fruit from the tree of life. The thing about On the Run, is that if they do though, they will find a bitter ending and be cast out of the proverbial Eden. The way I see it, newbie runners have to learn about professionalism and sometimes it is through the hard way. Is it improbable for a IC newbie runner to be curious about the prize of his or her first run with all of the emotions running from the excitement and adventure? Even though it is not supposed to happen, it is understandable. Small note. What the runners have the potential to discover from the Behind the Scenes portion is a small planted seed to have a small bit of morality into the equation (Not enough, but there is the seed.)

Before playing the adventure on Sunday night I had the same thought process as you Cain (And rightfully so). But it did not detour from the fact that the players had a wonderful time with the adventure, and we only played the first part of the story (We ended at the Coda Bar). "On the Run." definitely has it's flaws with the plot and writing as you point out in this thread and your review. But I believe it works if played by a group of novice runners, PC's new to the 4th edition, and especially a new GM to Shadowrun or Shadowrun 4th. Is it the best adventure out there? Heck no. But does it work? That's what I am trying to argue.

And about Elvis and Jet Black. I gotcha, I was just pulling your leg a bit

Oh, I never said it doesn't work. I do stand by the statement that there are others that work much better, though. We have Shadowrun Missions as a sterling example of introductory adventures that do everything On the Run tries, only better. Aaron Pavao has several adventures on his site that I'm looking into. And all these are absolutely free! I wouldn't spend money on On the Run, because there's so much better out there! (And with fewer printing issues, I might add. )

On the Run is very good at certain things. It's dead-easy for a new GM, and serves as an excellent reference to the BBB. Every rule is cross-indexed with a page reference to the main rulebook, something you seldom see. And there are some fun scenes. But the overall plotline, and how it all fits together, doesn't really work as well as it should.

With the amount you spend on ink in printing a PDF you might as well just buy the book. I can almost guarantee you had printing trouble with the PDF because you sent a file to a commercial mass printer that didn't have enough RAM to handle it. The PDFs are layered and marked up to use the bookmarks system. I doubt it was Fanpro's intention to create a digital file for casual printing. Props to Adam for helping out though.

I also don't understand this mentality of "this isn't what a professional Shadowrunner would do!" Like there's some kind codified set of behavior that every PC must abide by in order to qualify for "Shadowrunner" status. On the Run encourages players to be curious, which makes for a fun game. If all players care about is leveling up and making cash and have no interest in actually playing in the world... that's a bit boring.

Personally I LIKE the idea that the adventure encourages a shred of Pink Mohawkism by denying the Ice Cold Pros access to the rest of the run.

Free download using my credits on DriveThruRpg.com, sp price wasn't an issue. I buy/obtain a lot of pdfs, and many game companies bundle a print-friendly version with the full, bookmarked one. It's not that difficult. If you want the full story, check out the link above: Kinkos has massive amounts of RAM in their machines, and they had trouble with it.


Being a shadowrunner implies that you're a professional. It implies that you're a cut above a street gang, that you are not pond scum out for a quick buck. There is a codified set of behaviors for them, and among these is: "Never betray a Johnson until he betrays you."

I read the story. You tried to print the full, bookmarked one and it gummed up the works. I did that in college a few times. I do think that Catalyst should either offer flattened versions or put a big old disclaimer on BattleCorps that reads: "These files are designed for eBook readers and laptops and are not meant for printing."
Uh oh! UH OH! Are you saying if I'm a PC I have to be a "professional"? Are you telling me how to play Shadowrun?

That's one of the points I made. Especially for things that are likely to be printed out, such as the Quick Start rules, there should be a print-friendly version.


Oh, thpthpthpthp

Even though a tiny minority of people have reported issues printing our PDF files [and I've never experienced such issues myself], I've switched over to a new method of making PDF files, which is more work on our end but creates PDF files with no transparency, so they behave better in 3rd party PDF readers. Nobody has reported any issues printing out any of these books [Ghost Cartels, Unwired, the revised Arsenal, etc].

By the way. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended professional rating for the runners for the book? I assume that it is not for beginning Shadowrunners.

To be fair, Adam (and not to disparage the excellent work you do), the original pdf of SR4 was an absolute nightmare for everyone, as you recall. I believe it had something like 12+ layers to it, which gummed up the works even at professional printers. I also remember you pulling an all-nighter fixing it, so that's just more props to you. But from the very beginning, a lot more than a "tiny minority" of people have reported printing problems. I'll grant that you fix them as fast as you find them, which is extremely cool.

I'll also add that my copy of Unwired went off with minimal problems, but that was at a professional printer; I believe Office Max. I haven't tried one on my home machine yet. However, in the meantime, I'll take you at your word.

So Cain, you're saying that I'm awesome and we work hard to fix problems when we arise, and then don't make them again later? Thanks!

Beginning shadowrunners (400 bp) should be able to run Ghost Cartels. As a GM, you might decide to scale down the opposition or lighten up some of the runs. Or you may point out to your runners that running away from the Big Bad Guys is not necessarily a Bad Thing ™. And you can also (and probably should) award karma through the entire campaign, so characters who start at the beginning should grow more competent as the campaign progresses and the tasks become more difficult. After all, the campaign covers, in-game, the better part of a year. Newbies who start it at the beginning and survive until the end should come out with a lot of experience (and scars. Lots of scars.).

No, I'm saying you're *very* awesome. Otherwise, pretty much.

I totally agree with SincereAgape here, On the Run was very awesome for newb GMs and Runners.

Cain, you and I have gone back and forth between about how much info the runners can derive from just holding the disk, and how professional it is to carry on to the second part of the run, but I have to say that it was part of the contract to track down any copies or other versions of the disk/data that could have existed as well, so there is more than a logical jump (one would even go as far as to say a "professional" jump) from the first half of the adventure to the second half of the adventure. Also, if anyone assumes Kerwin was a D-bag, like he is, he could have given them a bum or non-functional disc and the runners would HAVE to check it out in order to save face and look professional in front of the Johnson if they turned in garbage and got the big FAIL from Mr. J.

Not only that, but I ran the adventure for a group of roleplaying veterans and one newb who were notorious for destroying campaign modules and pre-made adventures all across the board. There was only one instance where I had to improvise on the fly (our Troll Bounty Hunter has a prejudice against the corruption of youth, so the BTLhead kiddies outside Delphia's place set him off and she ran. Luckily our rigger was super fly in her van and chased down her scoot. Delphia didn't have any driving skills though, so I assumed she'd be at a hobbyist level at cycling and gave her a rating 2 pilot ground craft skill and a spec for motorcycles following the rock chick bike riding thrill seeker stereotypes out of cyberpunk movies and anime). Everything else went as planned mostly because the players used a logical thought process and process of elimination to get to the end. It was very point A to point B, but it didn't require anything they could have likely missed, just logical thought. It's a perfect introduction into the world of SR for beginners as well.

Trying to track down "all copies" of a disk is completely impossible. Even if you know what's on it, you could never know whose hands it passed through. So, that was twice IME blown off as Johnson letting off smoke. As it stood, I have to do alot of fancy stepping to get the team to take the job in the first place, simply because they thought that tracking down a single optical disk was a definite "needle in a haystack" raw deal. Even first-time players felt they were getting screwed. I know that even when I went through it, I negotiated that stupid clause out of the deal.

As for the rest: you consider the fact that a group of players couldn't break it a good thing? When players "break" an adventure, that's because they're being creative and involved in it. I hadn't thought of it as a "glass tunnel" type of deal, but now that you mention it, there are elements of it, aren't there? You pretty much have to go from A to B to C, in order, with no room for deviation.

Thanks for the update Tiger Eyes. Second and Third Questions.

2. Ghost Cartels, what is the recommended size of the team? Given the fact that someone can adjust the mission to accomendate the number of runners. Does the story chronicle the events of one Shadowrun team and their journey or is this a multiple facet operation (Drug Smuggling) involving numerous parts of the body, ergo more then one Shadowrun team. I ask because there are more players showing interest in the meetup group and I am thinking about picking up Ghost Cartels and possibly run it with another GM for say around 8-10 runners.

3. Is it a linear point A to B to C type of module like On the Run?

Thanks in advance.
Agape.

If you want 8 - 10 players, go for it. My group is 4 players (and has been for a decade) so I tend to like the number 4. I think it depends on what you feel comfortable with. You can play it with each group doing different facets. You could even (if you have 2 GMs) play with each GM taking 4-5 players, and running each other for opposing sides (ie, the Drug Cartel's runners and Interpol's runners) - that'd be amusing. In fact, each adventure could be completed by a different group. Or completed by one group who survives the entire year.



I don't believe it is linear. Just because you complete run A, you don't have to do run B to get to run Z. Or C. Or E. You could just do the runs in one city and then nothing else. You could do some from each city. You could have a different group of characters for each city. You could spend months doing the side adventures presented for the different cities. Heck, you could decide to do a tour of Africa instead of the ones presented. Or Europe.

Maybe some of those who've read it can chime in and say if they felt it was linear or not.

Ghost Cartels introduces a new take on Shadowrun campaigns which is exceptionally flexible while at the same time giving you the specifics to bring things to the table with the least amount of hassle. The overall campaign is broken down into 3 story arcs (one set in Seattle, one taking the characters around the Pacific Rim, and one set in LA and South America) which may be played independently of one another or as a single huge campaign. Additionally the way the campaign is mapped out allows individual gamemasters to add any number of their own adventures and "side quests" to each of the story arcs. The book also contains a large fiction section contextualizing events and providing a variety of plothooks and seeds for enterprising gamemasters to develop on their own.


Ghost Cartels is not in fact a "module" or stand alone adventure like "On the Run," it is a full blown campaign made up of numerous interconnected adventures. These adventures are presented as Adventure Frameworks (which we also used in Emergence, System Failure, and the SR3 "track"-style campaigns before that). Adventure frameworks are adventure outlines, featuring simple scene by scene breakdowns and descriptions of events and NPCs, rather than fully detailed scenes write ups. This allows them to be easily adapted to most games, but requires more work on the part of the gamemaster to round out in play. To help with that issue though, and unlike similar books in the past, for Ghost Cartels we've taken a page from the modules and included location descriptions and maps, as well as fully stated and easy to reference NPCs and Grunts to save the gamemaster time.

The problem here is that System Failure and Emergence aren't adventures, they're lists of things that happen that the PC's can do absolutely nothing about. The GM is instead encouraged to write missions that tangentally dance around the indestructable plot points. In fact, those two are about useless and adventure books, and should be considered to be sourcebooks instead.

More of the same? Great.

*Chants* Ar-ti-facts! Ar-ti-facts! Ar-ti-facts!

Enough people have played and enjoyed both, that I'm not in the least bit worried that some people dislike them. Both portray setting events that are out of the players hands, but which drag the characters along because they affect the entire world around them and everyone they know. It's a big world and big events happen that characters have no control over. The same could be said for any major campaign including Brainscan and the Harlequin's campaigns. Plenty of people enjoy such "campaign frameworks."

As for Ghost Cartels, given that it features a new format that combines elements (good or bad, depending on your perspective) of the event/track campaigns (like MobWar), episodic campaigns (like Brainscan), and standalone adventures (like On the Run), making the assumption it is just like System Failure or Emergence would be a mistake.

Indeed, the only negative critique that I've seen (out of several dozen) was from someone who would have prefered the Emergence event book format, which suggests to me that you're jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Enough people have played and enjoyed both, that I'm not in the least bit worried that some people dislike them. Both portray setting events that are out of the players hands, but which drag the characters along because they affect the entire world around them and everyone they know. It's a big world and big events happen that characters have no control over. The same could be said for any major campaign including Brainscan and the Harlequin's campaigns. Plenty of people enjoy such "campaign frameworks."

As for Ghost Cartels, given that it features a new format that combines elements (good or bad, depending on your perspective) of the event/track campaigns (like MobWar), episodic campaigns (like Brainscan), and standalone adventures (like On the Run), making the assumption it is just like System Failure or Emergence would be a mistake.

Indeed, the only negative critique that I've seen (out of several dozen) was from someone who would have prefered the Emergence campaign framework/event book format, which suggests to me that you're jumping to the wrong conclusions.

I disliked both the endings of Harlequin and Brainscan, because the characters had no control over it. And I *love* the Harlequin campaign, so that's saying something! But at any event, the "campaign framework" you mention is not the same thing as an adventure framework. Harlequin had a bunch of adventures, as did every other book you mention. Emergence and System Failure did not. Instead, they listed stuff you could do while the cool things happened elsewhere. Unlike, say Survival of the Fittest, where you got to be in the center of it all, and ultimately make the final decision.

Since I haven't read Ghost Cartels, I won't pass judgment on it yet. If it's what you claim it is, I will suggest that the fans hold off on buying it until the critics go over it. If it turns out to be yet another sourcebook of pretty things to look at, someone should tell them before they buy.

Do you mean like this? I'm sure you'll be happy to know that both sales and buzz have been excellent so far.

I am actually looking forward to Cain's review of Ghost Cartels if he decides to write one. Despite his negative criticisms of "On the Run." I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, outside of his PDF problems. Other then that, the buzz surrounding Ghost Cartels looks legit, I want to try and con one of my PCs to run it while I take a break from GMing

Thank you for the kind review of my review. But if you want to see one that made veins throb, you should look up my Review of Runner Havens. Despite the fact that I actually quite enjoyed a good chunk of the book, I still got screamed at for being a SR4 hater. I also demonstrated on Dumpshock that you could take large sections of the Seattle chapter, cut and paste "Minneapolis" into its place, and you'd never know the difference. And Lo, the Flames did burn long and bright....

For the record, I quite enjoyed the framework provided by Emergence and ran nearly every run scenario presented in the book. My only complaint would be that the book didn't come out sooner as my group had been playing SR4 for quite some time, and retconning the technomacer secret back into the bag took some doing.

On both sides.

Didn't say otherwise, did I?

/me sits up and waves off some smoke.

Wait Wut? What product are you moving?


/Sorry if its a cheap joke, or if its lost on anyone
//Not that I am addicted to RPGs
// I could quit anytime I want to... I just don't want to

This is exactly why Emergence and System Failure have been great reading for me, enjoyed and all, and not really played. However, I did get a copy of Survival of the Fittest in an auction and I guess I will read it now.

Ghost Cartels has been relegated to a *Pick your favorite holiday so I don't insult you* gift.

Hearty hearty LOL.

Right, because everybody needs to be TOLD what to buy and can't make a decision on their own. You know what I dislike about critics? Their over-inflated sense of self worth. Critics in all fields are inherently bitter that they can't produce the same kind of quality <insert art, food, movie, book, etc. here> that the artists/chefs/writers produce. And yet, all of them can claim that they can do it better or like to list the ways that it could be made better.

You want a good opinion? If you like Shadowrun, buy the book. You'll be able to read it as you like, and you'll be putting money back into the company who makes the books so they can make more. Enjoy it and be thankful that they put their time and energy into creating something for you to futz around with. Certainly don't wait for some big-headed internet warrior to tell you it's OK before you buy it.

You want a good opinion?

People hate critics, because they raise good points. They point out the flaws in things you'd otherwise blindly love and waste money on. There's a percentage of Shadowrun fans who'll buy anything the company churns out, no matter how crappy or how good it may be. Then you hit the second crowd, consisting of more generalized gamers. Those are the ones for whom criticism is worth while. They want to know if it's worth their money to buy one product, instead of another. With the economy the way it is, game books have become a luxury, so you need to stretch your dollar even further.

Because Dumpshockers fall in the first category, I don't post reviews here. I post them on general sites, and link to them. They could put out someting almost as bad as FATAL, and Dumpshockers would still buy it. Heck, there's a lot of people who are banning Unwired from their tables! How many Dumpshockers have copies of that, I wonder?

If Ghost Cartels turns out to be a piece of crap, I won't want to have wasted money on it. And when/if I do a review, it will be fair and honest, even if it makes a few people's heads pop. I think that because I post here, people expect me to say: "Yay, it's Shadowrun, it must be great!", and when I don't proclaim it to be the Second Coming, a lot of people get angry.

You want a good opinion? Before you buy *anything*, especially in this economy, research it before you put money down on it. I don't care if it's household siding or game books, the principle is exactly the same. And part of doing your research is checking to see what other people thought when they bought the same product. It'd be stupid not to, especially when money is so tight.

Waiting for one...



I disagree. I hate critics because as stated above, they have an overinflated sense of why their opinion is more important than the next person's. Everybody's experiences in life are different, and how those experiences shape a person's perspective make their preferences different as well. Reading another person's review on something is nothing more than mind control on a subliminal level. Depending on how a reviewer skews what he writes, the audience will be predisposed to either like or dislike the product before they have ever had a chance to experience it and make a decision for themselves. Sometimes, even after experiencing the product, the audience will still side with the reviewer even if they have developed an opinion for themselves that differs. People unfortunately are a lot like sheep and they do exactly like the person in front of them does. If "Reviewer X" claims things a certain way, watch Audience X parrot the exact same claims without thought. Reviews and critiques are just another form of control. I know that as a human, I am not above this control either, so that's why I try to NOT read reviews and form my opinion like a big boy. However, I'll take a look and research the product and educate myself on it before I determine if it is worth my interest.

I spent all of my time in college in the Mass Comm department earning my very functional, but very disgusting Mass Comm degree. I am more than very aware of how mass communication and media affects the minds of people, and have come to terms with it in such a manner that I have forsaken my degree and chosen to work AGAINST the industry whose secrets I have learned. Hopefully, with a bit more education on the subject matter, the next generation will be a bit more media literate than this current generation we are a part of.

I digress. Simply put, there needs to be the simple understanding that there is bias behind everything that is stated by anybody and true education isn't listening to what other people say or parrot back to be trendy, but understanding what their sources are and why they feel that way, and what events and experiences are twisting and perverting their experiences. Frankly, most people just don't care enough to take the time and think, and they'd rather just believe that what they read is true.

Taken in context, we can look at what Synner is saying about Ghost Cartels and use simple logic to understand that of course he is trying to promote his new book because it's his ass on the line if the book doesn't sell. However, we can also use a little bit of cranial power to understand that everything he has said about the book has more or less been stated about its layout and set up and hasn't been uber hype telling us how cool or awesome the story or reveal is. I just bought the book today. I haven't had time to read it, but I looked through it, and yup, everything Synner has said checks out to be true. But then again, we should have researched that ourselves when we looked at the previews.



Want a really good opinion? Penny-pinching is the reason this country is going to hell in a hand basket. Out-sourcing, layoffs, CEO greed, hoarding of resources and wealth, etc etc, are just some of the reasons we are in this financial debacle. Money only has value when you are spending it. Having regrets over only 25 dollars is pretty petty, and this is coming from someone who lives paycheck to paycheck and still budgets enough to buy the latest Shadowrun book.

Even given that everything Synner has said about the new format, that doesn't mean it's any more readable or, heck, any *better* than the books that came before it. And given what a mess Emergence and System Failure turned out to be, I really don't have a good feeling about this book. I'll give it a fair review, if/when I get around to reading it and putting my opinions online.

Still, you said "Do your research". That includes reading reviews. That means putting up with people like me, who write about what we liked/disliked about something. You're right that reviews can make people predisposed to buy/not buy something, but that's the whole point. I've had pieces of my reviews used as advertisements for certain games. So, when I say people should hold onto their money until the product reviews come back, I'm not asking people to do anything crazy or stupid-- in fact, I'm asking them to do the opposite.


This is a tangent, so I'll try not to spend too much time on it. But you're wrong. Spend, Spend, Spend; that's exactly the mentality that got us into this mess. If you know anything about our economy, you'll know that we only have money to lend when we have money to save-- and the big banking crisis is because we don't have money to lend. Over the last eight years, we've been conditioned to think that we need that next luxury item, just one more book, to spend just a bit more.

But anyways, you're in the first group I mentioned. You'd spend your last dollar buying the latest Shadowrun product, even if it was a steaming pile of turds. It doesn't matter how fair or foul a review is, you're not going to listen to it, are you? Short of Tom Dowd and Jordan Wiseman stepping off a cloud and threatening to hurl thunderbolts at you, would *anything* have persuaded you to not buy this book? I mean, you're demonstrating a willingness to forego food in order to buy this book, sight unseen! I really doubt that you'll report anything but the best about this book, after you've starved yourself to buy it.

For those of you who would like a review before purchasing the product, in the link Peter provided above, the following Dumpshockers gave Ghost Cartels a big thumbs up (and some wrote extensive reviews on why they liked/loved it):

Knasser
Leofski
Beetle
Trobon
Kanislatrans
Fuchs
Bofh
Blue Eyes
Cndblank
Fistandantilus

One person spoke poorly of it: Zenshooter

I think that the 10 people who took the time to write what they liked about the book (and the one person who clearly stated what he did not like) have done a nice job of providing reviews for those dumpshockers who like reviews.

In other words, not to pick on Cain or Ninja, the response and reviews on Dumpshock have been overwhelmingly positive. For Cain, specificially, the main complaint that Zenshooter had was that the book was not enough like Emergence and not a core-rule book type book.

For anyone who's read this thread all the way through, and curious what the buzz is about Ghost Cartels, please do click on Peter's link above, or follow this same link: Discussion and reviews of Ghost Cartels

Shrug. Like I said, Dumpshock is loaded with the kind of people who'll buy anything related to Shadowrun. I won't go further into it, because it'll predispose me to dislike the book when I read it. But I'd like to see some reviews from a more neutral perspective, and not from the dedicated fanbase.

From comments like these ...



... I would say it's already too late.

I know we've disagreed on both of those titles in the past, but I've run campaigns in both, and never had a problem. I am running a campaign AGAIN through emergence before we get started on Ghost Cartels. For some reason you have a problem with translating big events down to a working runners campaign, but that didn't happen on my end. I'm not saying you're not getting it or you're doing it wrong, but everybody should know your bias before you spout off "They were bad... Listen to Me!"



Actually, my research doesn't have anything to do with reviews. It has to do with previews and product description. It then takes the logic behind knowing who's giving me the description and why they want me to think highly of it. I also take in great deals of hype and more or less ignore it, or pay close attention to whom is hyping it and why. I make sure that in forms of media, I find out as much as I can about the actual material inside the product, but ignore all of the opinionated crap that people think is important. As soon as anyone actually passes judgment on it, I stop caring what they have to say.



No, I humbly disagree. The problem isn't in spending. It's in borrowing and spending what you don't have. It's buying on credit. It's buying what you can't pay for. I only have a credit card because I can't rent an apartment without credit. It's paid off every month and I only buy gas and groceries with it. I wouldn't use the thing if the system didn't require me to have it. That's what the problem is.



You bring up a good point. I have big bias. However, my bias isn't hanging on every word the devs and writers type up and print as untouchable gold as you would suggest. No, my bias is even far worse. I have OCD, and I have it bad. I don't clean compulsively or have any nervous tics, but I do have to collect everything in series when I get into it. I don't own every Shadowrun book in existence. But after a couple of years, I am more than half of the way there. As I said you should state your bias, I know I should state mine as well, but my statement wasn't about reasoning to buy the book because it was good or bad, it was buying to book to support the crew that makes it. My bias towards collecting things doesn't factor into that statement in the slightest otherwise I would have given the disclaimer.

I however am not silly enough to sacrifice essential grocery money in order to buy things that I cannot afford as you describe. I am smart enough to budget spending cash out of other free time activities though to afford a measly 25 dollars for a new book. Will you see me rushing to get the Street Magic Reprint with it's spiffy new orange cover? Nope. There are points at which I draw the line, and while I'd really like another copy of Street Magic, I know I have to pass. And that decision came without a review and just based on knowledge of what's inside. <sarcasm> How could I ever develop that decision on my own? </sarcasm>

Now, I do think there is a place in society for review and criticism, but I feel it should never be used for commercial practice or influencing others. I think it should be used as a form of reflection and self awareness. After experiencing like items, one should always compare the experiences and figure out what they thought was better and what they liked about each and why. This only helps us become more aware of ourselves, our influences and our levels of cognitive reasoning. These in turn help us be better educated to make worth while decisions for ourselves in the future. One should never use these opinions to persuade another into buying or not buying/experiencing or not experiencing something for themselves. As I said above, this is a form of control and I am highly against control of others.

If one would like to compare thoughts and ideas over an experience or product, there's no reason not to share in an open forum. In fact, I think you have more of a right to share your reviews of Shadowrun products here at the official Shadowrun forum than elsewhere on the net. Most of the people here have their opinions already and won't have their minds changed, but would like to know how others feel over the same things.

Even a cursory glance of the numerous review and errata threads on Dumpshock also reveals that it is loaded with the kind of people who heavily criticize, intelligently deconstruct, and are entirely willing to offer negative reviews of every book we put out.

Oddly enough some of the people who did like Ghost Cartels were people who quite vocal in their dislike of Emergence - such as knasser, to name but one.

That's because I like my players to be able to influence big events, such as in the end to SotF. I have no problem translating big events to a working campaign, but the players need to be able to influence those events, not just sit by helplessly and watch them, or while the really cool action happens elsewhere without their knowledge.

To bring things back to On The Run, there's a lot of time spent lauding Jetblack; but no matter how you play it, Jetblack is not going to make an appearance in the run. The material was put in to appeal to older fans, but I can't say that it appealed to me, and I'm about as old a fan as you can get.


What happens if it's a great big pile of crap? What happens if you're reading a review of the (hypothetical) Ford Pinto II, which hasn't improved from its predecessor? There was a crowd of people who liked the Pintos, no matter what was said about them. What happens when someone is writing a negative review, to try and warn you away from something bad?


That's exactly the problem. People here won't change their minds, no matter what. In the Runner Havens thread, I proved that you could cut-and-paste large sections of the Seattle chapter, replacing "Seattle" for "Boston" or even "Bangor", and you'd never notice the difference. All that did was attract flames. Worst part of all, that review wasn't a negative review-- it was actually very positive, especially of the top-notch Hong Kong chapter.


That doesn't change the fact that Dumpshock is still loaded with the kind of people who'll buy anything related to Shadowrun. There are a lot of intelligent people here, but there's also a lot of people who go into attack mode whenever negative criticism appears. Some people actually fall in both camps.

The problem I've always found with critics is that they experience the subject in question 100x more than the average person does. For instance, a movie critic watches many more movies than the average person. So, when an action movie comes out that follows the traditional action movie formula critics are bored with it even though the average person may still find it enjoyable, simply because they haven't seen so many just like it. Conversely, many critics are pleased by art or products that deviate from established norms because they are "fresh" and "innovative" but may have features that make the average person say, "what the heck is this?" Thus we fall into a trap where people are creating products that only people who study those products will appreciate ("art for artists").

True. But sometimes, that experience does translate into valuable information. I've personally played probably over a hundred game systems. So, I'm a bit jaded when it comes to new RPG's. But that doesn't mean I won't be wowed by something totally new, nor does that mean Joe Gamer won't be, either. Probably within a month, I'm going to run my Wushu in the Shadows game, a Shadowrun game converted into the Wushu system. I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised with the results.

But if you're afraid of that happening, review the reviewer. See if they're an arthouse junkie, or just a hater who's venting. I've got two Shadowrun reviews posted n RPG.net. One is the Runner Havens review, where I actually give a very glowing recommendation on the Hong Kong section. The second is the On the Run review in question. I actually make quite a few positive comments about it; the big negative arguments is that it's more of a GM aid than a functional adventure, and that Elvis the Primogen misses the "Shadowrun Style". I also give major props to Adam, for some very classy work.

I've read both your reviews. I don't necessarily agree with all your comments in the reviews, but they are at least coherently written. I'm working on a more lengthy review of Ghost Cartels at the moment that I'm planning on posting here, RPGNet, and on Battlecorps. I'm sure I'll hear from you then, and if you have any questions about how the product handles certain things I'll be happy to answer them.

Owch!


I sincerely look forward to it. Sooner or later, I'll get a hold of a copy, and I'll try to post a review as well.