Small cry of despair, Not much of use to others, I'm afraid. Options

[knasser]

I recently inherited an existing group. Consequently, I didn't get to start things off the way I wanted. I have a bunch of severely maxed out PCs - you know the sort. Charisma 1 types that are world-class athletes, hyper-skilled individuals living in a shared squat (why can they even stand each others company?), living off cold stuffershack snackpots and hoarding large quantities of military hardware. They scoured Runners Companion for the most exploitable Negative Qualities. Their power-levels are all over the place. E.g. we have a troll with 23 dice to soak ballistic (before AP mods).

Last week, they had raised the notion of bringing in a new starting character with as much useful gear as could be afforded then having him donate it to the group before the player "changed his mind" and wanted a new character. Though I guessed that one for myself.

They essentially want D&D. Facing a tough military drone (which ended up getting two-shotted by the troll bow, and that's after I capped troll bow damage at 8P base, same as the heavy crossbow), we had one player complaining that it was too tough for his character. Well yes - you're a stealth character: Sneak Around It!

I get backed into a corner with this group. They build characters that demand powerful opposition, but aren't smart enough to face it. I pit them against some gangers or some security guards and they walk through them without noticing. I have no choice but to bring out more professional opposition. But any such opposing group with a commlink network and a modicum of organisation is going to close them off and blow them to pieces.

Their satisfaction comes primarily from "kill things, take their stuff." But Shadowrun isn't like D&D. You can't keep acquiring more magical items and getting more powerful. They already have their 6's in Pistols or whatever and a frag grenade is already lethal. They'll get bored with the lack of progression soon enough but aren't much interested in anything else. And of course, this bunch of anti-social, badly smelling psychopaths have rating 6 contacts (ones that will help them get what they need of course, like international arms dealers).

We have two near-hopeless cases of power-gamers. One is not so bad and is starting to show glimmers of role-playing, with my nudging. The other's character was a bunch of numbers calculated to kill things. I kind of got through to that one and the Statistical Assemblage Designed For Killing Things has now been replaced with the Statistical Assemblage Designed For Talking to Things. In a way it's even worse as I now have to deal with a PC with Charisma 9 that will be played, well, we will see... A third player appears to be basing his life around our Shadowrun game. I keep waiting for him to throw back his head and cry "No! Not Black Leaf! No! No!". Quite frankly, he's even worse since it seems the entire groups' desire to role-play has been absorbed by this one individual. He sends me extensive life-histories for his contacts and keeps staring at me like he wants to kill me if I insist a contact's background doesn't fit my game. He also has read everything he can get for Shadowrun and makes unwarranted assumptions about things and gets really resentful if my game doesn't match what he thinks.

Quite frankly, I'm bored with this group. We've only played through a few sessions. It just ain't what I want. If I could find a different Shadowrun group, I'd move on. If I could have started the campaign myself and had a hand in developing the characters with the players at the start and at least set some more ground rules, it might be okay.

But I think I'm almost done with them. Maybe I've been GM'ing too long and I'm too used to running things my way. Or maybe I like Shadowrun too much and am too set on running it how I think it should be run. But whatever, I'm bored with this group and I think I'm done with it.

[Stahlseele]

now take one guess as to why you inherited that group O.o
if they want d&d, "rocks fall, everybody dies!" can be applied to shadowrun too neh?
but first, TELL THEM what you want from shadowrun and tell them what will happen if they come up with such characters.
if they come up with characters that can take on military units, then they should expect military units to take them on . .
and usually, military units will be a bit more organized than such a group of misfits . .

[Grinder]

Tell them how much (or better: less) you fun have with the way the game is currently running. And then think with them how to change it. If it turns our that their way of gaming doesn't work with your way, leave the group.

[kzt]

Put them up against the Star or KE. Give them options to avoid, if they don't then bury them. The survivors get hunted out of the country and lose all they cool hardware and contacts.

Or they get killed by cows falling out of a passing airliner.... It sounds fairly hopeless.

[Ryu]

I feel your pain - I have been a member of such a powergamer group a few years ago. My personal advice is: if it can´t be cured, move on.

IMO the only shot that remains is a complete group rebuild, with closely monitored character generation, using the karma-based system, at significantly less than 750 karma.
- Make sure that they understand that the karma-based system "rewards broad builds with higher BP-equivalents".
-- Tell them that you will use the same power level for the opposition, lethality being a choice made by them.
- Do what someone else suggested recently (source?), and limit effective dicepools per type of skill.
-- Suggest that all D&D types start out substantially below that, so that there is room to grow.
-- Reward consistent builds with the permission to bypass usual dp limits ingame. ("Great merc. You may have one combat skill with a dp up to 16 dice.")
-- Make sure that intentional weaknesses figure into pay on an individual basis. ("Good combatant, but increases the risk of detection somewhat fierce. Let´s say we pay half the usual rate?")

Once you have taken control, deliver on "kill things, take stuff". Reward intelligent plans with great loot, but demand that all money has a defined "owning SIN" and type of investment. Establish that blatant killing sprees, and messed up runs, will likely result in burned SINs - and now assets.

Problem: That type of gamer is unlikely to approve the new "group consensus", even if I think you´d do well at selling the idea.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sit down and talk about your frustrations.

If they won't meet you half way, they are a bunch of unreasonable dicks and you need to find a new game

But you have to meet them half way - I'm one of the sort of people who wants to make an assemblage of statistics designed to blow stuff up while pretending to be Peter Petrelli/Neo, and I just won;t have fun in a really heavily RP focused game where I cannot flip out and do cool stuff.

But yeah, ranting on dumpshock won't help, gotta talk to them and try and reach a compromise where you can all have fun. If that cannot be reached, you've gotta walk. its a tough road.

[Dumori]

game your on the other side of England as I have a group I can't gl due to time issues.

[sunnyside]

Alright my 2 cents.

First and foremost you have to take a serious look at what sort of GM you are. A lot, and I mean A FRAGGING LOT, of GMs are dungeon crawlish GMs. No shame if you are one, just that you need to realize it.

What I mean is that they may want players to roleplay etc etc, but than what they present the players with are dungeon crawls in high rises.

If you want them to role play more your primary weapons are the plot, the spotlight, and karma. The plot is the hardest, since RPing in the plot takes careful consideration to not have a group with a superface just dice through it or a mage brain rape through. Karma awards are the easiest, but sometimes seen as cheap and heavy handed.

The spotlight is subtle but effective. That one role player you have? You give him time. Usually at the beginning of a session when people are settling in or the end. But you give him time to go on dates, to hang out with his contacts. Maybe deal with an overdosing friend. The point is that hopefully he and you will be having fun with role playing. And the other players will notice the spotlight on him. Don't overdo it and give the guy and hour. 15 minutes is enough. At some level the other players will notice. And they'll want a piece of it in time.

I have never had a player, no matter how socially malagusted and powergamey resist the spotlight. They'll hold out at first. But than a couple other players will turn to RP. And when captain muchkin realizes he's the only one home on a saturday night and he isn't going to see the spotlight for a half hour as you go through the other players at the end of a session he'll break.

-----------------------------

Your other problem is them walking through opposition. This isn't even a problem in Shadowrun unless they're taking low pay low karma jobs. Even total badasses in SR have serious problems taking serious hits. Even moderate ones they didn't see coming.

That and reinforcements are the key. Put a superdrone in front of them and they'll walk through it. Put even a goon with 8 dice and a decent full auto gun in the planter in the hallway that they didn't see and he'll put a hurting on even the troll.

say 6 damage base +1 explosive rounds+6 burst+4 aimed shot and 1 hit on the test (no dodge since they didn't see him) and you have 18 damage. And that's just one goon.

And then reinforcments. Corps have at their disposal all manner of nastiness if they know about an assault too early in the run. From company men, to other runners, to swarms of spirits called in from around the globe, to T-birds that can park some distance from the site and lob in anti vehicle missiles when the runners come out.

Finally, and this goes especially with powerful characters, as long as you're "fair" you can take the kid gloves off. If they blow it they have to burn edge. Simple as that.

Note that, if you're fair about it, they often will like you more for this. Especially if only one or two guys have to burn edge for screw ups they made. It'll make the others feel tons better about their characters getting through. And the burners will have something to prove to the others next time.

[ornot]

I can sympathise Knasser. One doesn't want to come across as petty or unreasonable, but it sounds like you'll get accused of being that or cheap if the PCs do get a hurting upon them, even if you do so completely legitimately. And there are ways to screw them completely from the hidden gun emplacements suggested by Sunnyside to double crossing Johnsons with elaborate death traps. Giving them surprise tests will probably limit the cries of "no fair", and might get them into a more appropriately paranoid world view. Conversely it might just make them view the whole thing as a confrontation between them and you, slowing the game down as they wind up trying to second guess what you might do to them.

You need to explain to them how you envisage the SR world, and your role as GM (opponent, ref or collaborator), and if it is totally opposite to the way they see it, and they're not prepared to compromise with you, then you're better off finding another group. If they want you to stay, take off the kid gloves, and make them pay for their choices. If this leads to a total party wipe, then so be it.

[sunnyside]

Conversely it might just make them view the whole thing as a confrontation between them and you, slowing the game down as they wind up trying to second guess what you might do to them.

The key thing here is make it seem realistic to them. If they sneak in and guys are popping out from all over the place they could reasonably call it dirty. If they knock on the front door with a panther assault cannon than by the time they reach the second hallway they should expect all defensive personell and drones are in advantagious and often hidden positions. And again, that reinforcements are on the way if they feel like being really careful the whole way.

Oh yeah, and grunts retreat. They take their smartlinked shots around the corner or from the behind the coffee machine and then if they have an avenue of escape they probably take it to be a pain later.

If this leads to a total party wipe, then so be it.

The total party wipe simply doesn't exist in SR4 like it did. It's a total party edge burn. A sting they'll feel. But one they'll survive. And again if one or two of them manage to get out they'll probably think you're the awsomest GM ever.

[Neraph]

E.g. we have a troll with 23 dice to soak ballistic (before AP mods).

So? In my game I have an elf wityh 30 dice to soak. It all matters about how you do things. I nearly killed a player because someone's enemy found their hideout and had 6 people suppresive fire, and he was like "I'm at home so I don't have armor on."

[ornot]

But powergamers sleep in their armour, all the time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

no we don't.
and we don't make all our characters do that either

[ElFenrir]

Also remember surprise attacks...but be careful here. As you probably know, they can be extremely deadly in SR4, and if you go too harshly here they might be pasted without even a chance. I know they seem to be a bit out of control, but no one likes to get pasted without even a chance to fight back. If they get pasted because they charge a room full of Steel Lynxes armed with autofire Panther Cannons, they asked for it. If they get gibbed in a run to the stuffer shack in an attempt to roleplay buying some soychow, that's just no fun.

BUT, a well-placed surprise attack(perhaps with non-lethal ammo? Enough to knock their asses silly, but not enough to kill them) could always put a scare into them to ''be more careful.'' It also might teach them some tactics, in a ''wow, how did three guys do this? This stealthy stuff really does work!'' kind of way.

[MaxMahem]

Drop some cows on them man, it's the only solution.

The guy with 20+ armor deserves a special solution. Drop TWO cows on him.

---

Seriously though I would never 'take over' a campaign that I was not already familiar with and approved of. As GM the campaign, the setting, is your bailiwick. And you should never just simply acquiesce to taking over one you don't totally agree with. This is a non-negotiable demand as a GM. Just as players have a right to play and control a character of their choosing, you have a right to have setting you totally control and design. When the players demand that you let them play in THIS setting with THESE characters (developed outside your control) you are letting them run parts of the game that you rightly should control. The consequences are as you have seen. So don't do it.

A amicable solution that may be acceptable to both parties is to start a new campaign, but to incorporate elements of the old one in it. Let the old PCs remain as NPCs that the players might have as contacts, or face as opposition. Maybe the new PCs somehow got screwed over by the anti-social psychopathic old PCs and are out for revenge.

[Larme]

My advice? Don't play with this group. They are playing an RPG like a first person shooter. You know what's good for that? First person shooters. Playing them on paper really just wastes time. Unless your group is interested in roleplaying, there is absolutely no point in an RPG. I'd try to find a game that better suits their abilities, like maybe the Shadowrun clickytech, or Halo. Everyone would have more fun.

[hyzmarca]

Step 1) Make a 200 BP eight year old girl with Home Ground, a lead-shot filled teddy bear, and plenty of prep time (the kind that Batman could kill an army of Supermans enough of).

Step 2) Design her squat, where she lives alone. Design it well.

Step 3) Allow them to pump up their characters some more with 300 Karma (using karmagen rules so they can buy extra qualities and gear)

Step 4) Have a Johnson hire them to kidnap this girl

Step 5) Show them her character sheet

Step 6) Kick their asses

The point to this exercise is to demonstrates to them exactly how little stats matter if they play smart. And to humiliate them.

The key is to have this little girl, who could not possibly take them on in a fair fight, TPK them with intelligent use of terrain and prepared traps. Do not cheat, it only works if it is legitimate. With any luck, it will be like one of those martial art's movies where the pretentious upstart becomes the wise master's most loyal student after taking a beating.

[Cthulhudreams]

Kicking their asses will just engender ill will. Whats the point?

[TheOOB]

I have a very very hard and fast rule, I do not let players use characters from games I was not a part of. It is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

Otherwise, you just have to make the group decide upon a power level, and play their opposition accordingly. If they want to play super elite mercs, they are going to face professional opposition who use good tactics. If they are going to play street punks, they will face other street punks. Apart from that you just need to put a stop to any blatant muchkinry that comes about(no you can't use the PPP system with your full body combat armor, the armor allready comes with all those parts)

[Medicineman]

ImO there's no InPlay solution,no 200 BP Girl ,no Cows from Airplanes. This can only be solved Out-Game
1) find out and describe what you as a GM whant.
2) talk to your Players and tell them ,that you're not having Fun !
3A) If They want to change,start a new Campaign with new Characters in a new Surrounding,change the tone of the Campaign,no more Dungeon Crawling.(use the Spolight Tip mentioned above)
3B)If they don't want to change,get yourself another Group (or are you a Masochist ?)

Hough!
Medicineman

[Fuchs]

ImO there's no InPlay solution,no 200 BP Girl ,no Cows from Airplanes. This can only be solved Out-Game
1) find out and describe what you as a GM whant.
2) talk to your Players and tell them ,that you're not having Fun !
3A) If They want to change,start a new Campaign with new Characters in a new Surrounding,change the tone of the Campaign,no more Dungeon Crawling.(use the Spolight Tip mentioned above)
3B)If they don't want to change,get yourself another Group (or are you a Masochist ?)

Hough!
Medicineman

Indeed. Trying to change player behaviour through in game actions usually only escalates things. The most common reaction I saw was not "I need to change playstyle/tactics" but "I need to get better gear/higher stats".

[toturi]

Why not just give them what they want and have fun?

If you cannot change the group or their expectations and you are not having fun, then change your expectations of what is fun. And then have fun playing SR.

[Fuchs]

Why not just give them what they want and have fun?

If you cannot change the group or their expectations and you are not having fun, then change your expectations of what is fun. And then have fun playing SR.

If I don't have fun getting hit into the face, I'll work on not getting hit into the face, not on trying to get to like getting hit.

[GreyBrother]

Why not explore an alternate setting? Something like mercenarys or special forces?

[Drogos]

Shoot them in the face and take their money. I'm not sure if I'm talking about the characters or the players, but either will work I suppose.