I recently inherited an existing group. Consequently, I didn't get to start things off the way I wanted. I have a bunch of severely maxed out PCs - you know the sort. Charisma 1 types that are world-class athletes, hyper-skilled individuals living in a shared squat (why can they even stand each others company?), living off cold stuffershack snackpots and hoarding large quantities of military hardware. They scoured Runners Companion for the most exploitable Negative Qualities. Their power-levels are all over the place. E.g. we have a troll with 23 dice to soak ballistic (before AP mods).

Last week, they had raised the notion of bringing in a new starting character with as much useful gear as could be afforded then having him donate it to the group before the player "changed his mind" and wanted a new character. Though I guessed that one for myself.

They essentially want D&D. Facing a tough military drone (which ended up getting two-shotted by the troll bow, and that's after I capped troll bow damage at 8P base, same as the heavy crossbow), we had one player complaining that it was too tough for his character. Well yes - you're a stealth character: Sneak Around It!

I get backed into a corner with this group. They build characters that demand powerful opposition, but aren't smart enough to face it. I pit them against some gangers or some security guards and they walk through them without noticing. I have no choice but to bring out more professional opposition. But any such opposing group with a commlink network and a modicum of organisation is going to close them off and blow them to pieces.

Their satisfaction comes primarily from "kill things, take their stuff." But Shadowrun isn't like D&D. You can't keep acquiring more magical items and getting more powerful. They already have their 6's in Pistols or whatever and a frag grenade is already lethal. They'll get bored with the lack of progression soon enough but aren't much interested in anything else. And of course, this bunch of anti-social, badly smelling psychopaths have rating 6 contacts (ones that will help them get what they need of course, like international arms dealers).

We have two near-hopeless cases of power-gamers. One is not so bad and is starting to show glimmers of role-playing, with my nudging. The other's character was a bunch of numbers calculated to kill things. I kind of got through to that one and the Statistical Assemblage Designed For Killing Things has now been replaced with the Statistical Assemblage Designed For Talking to Things. In a way it's even worse as I now have to deal with a PC with Charisma 9 that will be played, well, we will see... A third player appears to be basing his life around our Shadowrun game. I keep waiting for him to throw back his head and cry "No! Not Black Leaf! No! No!". Quite frankly, he's even worse since it seems the entire groups' desire to role-play has been absorbed by this one individual. He sends me extensive life-histories for his contacts and keeps staring at me like he wants to kill me if I insist a contact's background doesn't fit my game. He also has read everything he can get for Shadowrun and makes unwarranted assumptions about things and gets really resentful if my game doesn't match what he thinks.

Quite frankly, I'm bored with this group. We've only played through a few sessions. It just ain't what I want. If I could find a different Shadowrun group, I'd move on. If I could have started the campaign myself and had a hand in developing the characters with the players at the start and at least set some more ground rules, it might be okay.

But I think I'm almost done with them. Maybe I've been GM'ing too long and I'm too used to running things my way. Or maybe I like Shadowrun too much and am too set on running it how I think it should be run. But whatever, I'm bored with this group and I think I'm done with it.

now take one guess as to why you inherited that group O.o
if they want d&d, "rocks fall, everybody dies!" can be applied to shadowrun too neh?
but first, TELL THEM what you want from shadowrun and tell them what will happen if they come up with such characters.
if they come up with characters that can take on military units, then they should expect military units to take them on . .
and usually, military units will be a bit more organized than such a group of misfits . .

Tell them how much (or better: less) you fun have with the way the game is currently running. And then think with them how to change it. If it turns our that their way of gaming doesn't work with your way, leave the group.

Put them up against the Star or KE. Give them options to avoid, if they don't then bury them. The survivors get hunted out of the country and lose all they cool hardware and contacts.

Or they get killed by cows falling out of a passing airliner.... It sounds fairly hopeless.

I feel your pain - I have been a member of such a powergamer group a few years ago. My personal advice is: if it can´t be cured, move on.

IMO the only shot that remains is a complete group rebuild, with closely monitored character generation, using the karma-based system, at significantly less than 750 karma.
- Make sure that they understand that the karma-based system "rewards broad builds with higher BP-equivalents".
-- Tell them that you will use the same power level for the opposition, lethality being a choice made by them.
- Do what someone else suggested recently (source?), and limit effective dicepools per type of skill.
-- Suggest that all D&D types start out substantially below that, so that there is room to grow.
-- Reward consistent builds with the permission to bypass usual dp limits ingame. ("Great merc. You may have one combat skill with a dp up to 16 dice.")
-- Make sure that intentional weaknesses figure into pay on an individual basis. ("Good combatant, but increases the risk of detection somewhat fierce. Let´s say we pay half the usual rate?")

Once you have taken control, deliver on "kill things, take stuff". Reward intelligent plans with great loot, but demand that all money has a defined "owning SIN" and type of investment. Establish that blatant killing sprees, and messed up runs, will likely result in burned SINs - and now assets.

Problem: That type of gamer is unlikely to approve the new "group consensus", even if I think you´d do well at selling the idea.

Sit down and talk about your frustrations.

If they won't meet you half way, they are a bunch of unreasonable dicks and you need to find a new game

But you have to meet them half way - I'm one of the sort of people who wants to make an assemblage of statistics designed to blow stuff up while pretending to be Peter Petrelli/Neo, and I just won;t have fun in a really heavily RP focused game where I cannot flip out and do cool stuff.

But yeah, ranting on dumpshock won't help, gotta talk to them and try and reach a compromise where you can all have fun. If that cannot be reached, you've gotta walk. its a tough road.

game your on the other side of England as I have a group I can't gl due to time issues.

Alright my 2 cents.

First and foremost you have to take a serious look at what sort of GM you are. A lot, and I mean A FRAGGING LOT, of GMs are dungeon crawlish GMs. No shame if you are one, just that you need to realize it.

What I mean is that they may want players to roleplay etc etc, but than what they present the players with are dungeon crawls in high rises.

If you want them to role play more your primary weapons are the plot, the spotlight, and karma. The plot is the hardest, since RPing in the plot takes careful consideration to not have a group with a superface just dice through it or a mage brain rape through. Karma awards are the easiest, but sometimes seen as cheap and heavy handed.

The spotlight is subtle but effective. That one role player you have? You give him time. Usually at the beginning of a session when people are settling in or the end. But you give him time to go on dates, to hang out with his contacts. Maybe deal with an overdosing friend. The point is that hopefully he and you will be having fun with role playing. And the other players will notice the spotlight on him. Don't overdo it and give the guy and hour. 15 minutes is enough. At some level the other players will notice. And they'll want a piece of it in time.

I have never had a player, no matter how socially malagusted and powergamey resist the spotlight. They'll hold out at first. But than a couple other players will turn to RP. And when captain muchkin realizes he's the only one home on a saturday night and he isn't going to see the spotlight for a half hour as you go through the other players at the end of a session he'll break.

-----------------------------

Your other problem is them walking through opposition. This isn't even a problem in Shadowrun unless they're taking low pay low karma jobs. Even total badasses in SR have serious problems taking serious hits. Even moderate ones they didn't see coming.

That and reinforcements are the key. Put a superdrone in front of them and they'll walk through it. Put even a goon with 8 dice and a decent full auto gun in the planter in the hallway that they didn't see and he'll put a hurting on even the troll.

say 6 damage base +1 explosive rounds+6 burst+4 aimed shot and 1 hit on the test (no dodge since they didn't see him) and you have 18 damage. And that's just one goon.

And then reinforcments. Corps have at their disposal all manner of nastiness if they know about an assault too early in the run. From company men, to other runners, to swarms of spirits called in from around the globe, to T-birds that can park some distance from the site and lob in anti vehicle missiles when the runners come out.

Finally, and this goes especially with powerful characters, as long as you're "fair" you can take the kid gloves off. If they blow it they have to burn edge. Simple as that.

Note that, if you're fair about it, they often will like you more for this. Especially if only one or two guys have to burn edge for screw ups they made. It'll make the others feel tons better about their characters getting through. And the burners will have something to prove to the others next time.

I can sympathise Knasser. One doesn't want to come across as petty or unreasonable, but it sounds like you'll get accused of being that or cheap if the PCs do get a hurting upon them, even if you do so completely legitimately. And there are ways to screw them completely from the hidden gun emplacements suggested by Sunnyside to double crossing Johnsons with elaborate death traps. Giving them surprise tests will probably limit the cries of "no fair", and might get them into a more appropriately paranoid world view. Conversely it might just make them view the whole thing as a confrontation between them and you, slowing the game down as they wind up trying to second guess what you might do to them.

You need to explain to them how you envisage the SR world, and your role as GM (opponent, ref or collaborator), and if it is totally opposite to the way they see it, and they're not prepared to compromise with you, then you're better off finding another group. If they want you to stay, take off the kid gloves, and make them pay for their choices. If this leads to a total party wipe, then so be it.

The key thing here is make it seem realistic to them. If they sneak in and guys are popping out from all over the place they could reasonably call it dirty. If they knock on the front door with a panther assault cannon than by the time they reach the second hallway they should expect all defensive personell and drones are in advantagious and often hidden positions. And again, that reinforcements are on the way if they feel like being really careful the whole way.

Oh yeah, and grunts retreat. They take their smartlinked shots around the corner or from the behind the coffee machine and then if they have an avenue of escape they probably take it to be a pain later.




The total party wipe simply doesn't exist in SR4 like it did. It's a total party edge burn. A sting they'll feel. But one they'll survive. And again if one or two of them manage to get out they'll probably think you're the awsomest GM ever.

So? In my game I have an elf wityh 30 dice to soak. It all matters about how you do things. I nearly killed a player because someone's enemy found their hideout and had 6 people suppresive fire, and he was like "I'm at home so I don't have armor on."

But powergamers sleep in their armour, all the time

no we don't.
and we don't make all our characters do that either

Also remember surprise attacks...but be careful here. As you probably know, they can be extremely deadly in SR4, and if you go too harshly here they might be pasted without even a chance. I know they seem to be a bit out of control, but no one likes to get pasted without even a chance to fight back. If they get pasted because they charge a room full of Steel Lynxes armed with autofire Panther Cannons, they asked for it. If they get gibbed in a run to the stuffer shack in an attempt to roleplay buying some soychow, that's just no fun.

BUT, a well-placed surprise attack(perhaps with non-lethal ammo? Enough to knock their asses silly, but not enough to kill them) could always put a scare into them to ''be more careful.'' It also might teach them some tactics, in a ''wow, how did three guys do this? This stealthy stuff really does work!'' kind of way.

Drop some cows on them man, it's the only solution.

The guy with 20+ armor deserves a special solution. Drop TWO cows on him.

---

Seriously though I would never 'take over' a campaign that I was not already familiar with and approved of. As GM the campaign, the setting, is your bailiwick. And you should never just simply acquiesce to taking over one you don't totally agree with. This is a non-negotiable demand as a GM. Just as players have a right to play and control a character of their choosing, you have a right to have setting you totally control and design. When the players demand that you let them play in THIS setting with THESE characters (developed outside your control) you are letting them run parts of the game that you rightly should control. The consequences are as you have seen. So don't do it.

A amicable solution that may be acceptable to both parties is to start a new campaign, but to incorporate elements of the old one in it. Let the old PCs remain as NPCs that the players might have as contacts, or face as opposition. Maybe the new PCs somehow got screwed over by the anti-social psychopathic old PCs and are out for revenge.

My advice? Don't play with this group. They are playing an RPG like a first person shooter. You know what's good for that? First person shooters. Playing them on paper really just wastes time. Unless your group is interested in roleplaying, there is absolutely no point in an RPG. I'd try to find a game that better suits their abilities, like maybe the Shadowrun clickytech, or Halo. Everyone would have more fun.

Step 1) Make a 200 BP eight year old girl with Home Ground, a lead-shot filled teddy bear, and plenty of prep time (the kind that Batman could kill an army of Supermans enough of).

Step 2) Design her squat, where she lives alone. Design it well.

Step 3) Allow them to pump up their characters some more with 300 Karma (using karmagen rules so they can buy extra qualities and gear)

Step 4) Have a Johnson hire them to kidnap this girl

Step 5) Show them her character sheet

Step 6) Kick their asses

The point to this exercise is to demonstrates to them exactly how little stats matter if they play smart. And to humiliate them.

The key is to have this little girl, who could not possibly take them on in a fair fight, TPK them with intelligent use of terrain and prepared traps. Do not cheat, it only works if it is legitimate. With any luck, it will be like one of those martial art's movies where the pretentious upstart becomes the wise master's most loyal student after taking a beating.

Kicking their asses will just engender ill will. Whats the point?

I have a very very hard and fast rule, I do not let players use characters from games I was not a part of. It is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

Otherwise, you just have to make the group decide upon a power level, and play their opposition accordingly. If they want to play super elite mercs, they are going to face professional opposition who use good tactics. If they are going to play street punks, they will face other street punks. Apart from that you just need to put a stop to any blatant muchkinry that comes about(no you can't use the PPP system with your full body combat armor, the armor allready comes with all those parts)

ImO there's no InPlay solution,no 200 BP Girl ,no Cows from Airplanes. This can only be solved Out-Game
1) find out and describe what you as a GM whant.
2) talk to your Players and tell them ,that you're not having Fun !
3A) If They want to change,start a new Campaign with new Characters in a new Surrounding,change the tone of the Campaign,no more Dungeon Crawling.(use the Spolight Tip mentioned above)
3B)If they don't want to change,get yourself another Group (or are you a Masochist ?)

Hough!
Medicineman

Indeed. Trying to change player behaviour through in game actions usually only escalates things. The most common reaction I saw was not "I need to change playstyle/tactics" but "I need to get better gear/higher stats".

Why not just give them what they want and have fun?

If you cannot change the group or their expectations and you are not having fun, then change your expectations of what is fun. And then have fun playing SR.

If I don't have fun getting hit into the face, I'll work on not getting hit into the face, not on trying to get to like getting hit.

Why not explore an alternate setting? Something like mercenarys or special forces?

Shoot them in the face and take their money. I'm not sure if I'm talking about the characters or the players, but either will work I suppose.

With no face those are the kind of missions they probably do get. Even if they have absurd stats and gear, but play them dumb as rocks with no tactics they'll get legitimately pwned by opposing mercs that do use intel and tactics. And then there's the risk that they will cry 'no fair'.

Why not? Get hit. Learn to suck it up. Use it. Feed upon it. Learn to break the guy's fist with your jaw. I would not work on staying a wimp.


Really? So the pornomancer doesn't count eh?

Move the game to a matrix online game?

I think you need to learn the difference between a wimp and a masochist or idiot. And the difference betwen sucking up something, and enjoying it.

The Pornomancer is a new character. As of the OP, Knasser had not yet experienced the joy of; "Your target faces you down from behind his panther assault cannon and..." "I rolled 18 hits to make him shoot himself".

Yes, there is. It is a matter of attitude. Being a wimp makes you weaker, transmogrifying the pain and enjoying it makes you stronger. God gave man pain to tell him he is alive; verily when you feel pain, you know God loves you. The least you can do is to love to enjoy God's gift to you. Learn to enjoy.


So? Greybrother was talking of an alternate setting. The new character would be the most convenient vehicle to introduce the alternate setting.

The point, as stated, is to humble them so much that they become your most loyal and devoted followers, like in a martial arts movie.




Actually, we were given pain so we know not to stick our hands in fires or chew or own lips off, that sort of thing. This becomes fairly obvious when you see kids who were born without the ability to feel pain, or totally indifferent to it. Pain means that you should stop doing what you're doing, generally.

Or that you should be learning to use pain in a more enjoyable manner.

I have the same problem as the OP... Powergamers dumpstating and all that. I've tried humiliating them, it doesn't work(at least not for my group). I get the "cheat" screen jokes cause I use a GM screen. I've actually been considering a TPK and starting over in a more Merc or spec ops environment.

In Fact just this last week, the troll with 23 dp to soak(and a 4 will) got to taste a mage manaballing the group... not a single one of them plays a mage, and I've warned them that it'd be they're undoing.

That troll should have been a Fomori with Astral Hazing.

As to the players, I don't know them, nobody here does, and I can't offer any concrete statements.

As to the various suggestions and comparisons here, here is my take.

1. Have fun. Everyone should and the facts of life are that everyone does so differently.
2. As to the suggestions on the theme of "Give the group what it wants." I would agree with any other system. Shadowrun (4th) isn't designed for it, it can't scale upward. (And it doesn't run too well if you try to scale the starting builds down too far either)
3. The constant reference to D&D as the prime game to "Kill and loot" while one grows in power, no. First and Second Ed shadowrun were most certainly that way. Paydata is part of the loot you find in the lair. There have been versions of Shadowrun that support this mode of play.


This difference , the lack of a staircase to a dead end, is one of the most powerful elements of 4th Edition. There is a cost to be paid. Players have to evangelize how to play in 4th. They have to convert people into thinking about how the game can be played. Don't hate, belittle or confront people who want traditional game play. Offer them an alternative and leave them alone after.

I feel your pain Knasser. My group still aches for a boss fight to end an adventure. That is to say, fight the boss, not a series of fiat traps, guards and whatnot before the boss. However, in 4th Ed boss fights can be seriously anti climatic. [With the exception of Spirits who do not have any upper bound]

If these characters are sitting in a squat with a huge cache of military weapons, why aren't they being robbed? Unless someone is at home all the time that would be a veritable treasure-trove of goodies for a thief, ganger or n'er do well. I was using the SR3 Sprawl Survival Guide rules on living space and security with my group. Our hacker was living in the Barrens with crap security arrangements and unfortunately, according to the random roll of a die by yours truly, someone broke in and stole his souped-up AK-97.

You can always discourage munchkin-behavior without throwing some ridiculously high-powered opponent at a PC.

Most likely because they secretly sit on a huge hidden cache of military weapons.

A couple of people have hit on a good solution, already, but I'm going to take it a step further.

Get your group together, go out, and get some pie. Do this on a game night.

Why?

#1: Everybody likes pie. Well, maybe not everybody, but enough people that eating pie is generally considered an enjoyable activity. Non-pie eaters are welcome to substitute a dessert more to their taste.
#2: You're no longer at the gaming table. Or whatever space you play in. Nobody's in the GM's chair, everyone's on equal footing. Now you're in a position to talk about what kind of game y'all want to play without people getting all butt-hurt over it. And if the tension starts ratcheting up, hey, you're still eating pie, so it's not all bad.

For what it's worth (nothing?) I still think the particular game with the particular players are unsalvageable. Anyone who would even consider cheating by creating a character, dividing up their stuff, then creating a new character, is so far outside the limits of RPG gaming that I don't think they'll be able to learn. If you have even a basic respect for the idea of roleplaying, you owe it to yourself to exit. Let them play how they want, but don't labor under the illusion that you can suddenly make them understand the point of pnp games, which they are clearly missing.

I agree with the others when it comes to having a talk with your players and if they are still insisting on the being powergaming twinks then I say that if you are going to leave the group you should leave the group with a good story as a lesson to future groups.

The story goes like this.

Once upon a time there was a security guard named Bob. Bob was a nice guy and had good friends and family. Bob wanted to be a security gaurd his entire life. When he got out of high-school he went to Dad and Mom who were execs for a megacorporation and had them arrange for a job in a high-collar R&D assignment. Then one day a bunch of scary shadowrunners came knocking down the door and shot bob and his security gaurd friends. The assumed that bob was dead. Thier GM gave an especially gory description of his death just to make them believe that he died. But it turns out that bob Expended a permanant edge. A little while later when he came to in the corporate hospital Bob found out that he had been paralyzed but the shadowrunners and he couldnt be a security gaurd anymore. Because of his pension he would be taken care of for the rest of his life and his parents had all the money in the world so he didnt have to worry for anything. Bob couldnt be a security gaurd though and that made bob mad. Bob wanted revenge.

So Bob called up mom and pop and had them use thier leverage to get ahold of some coporate assets. Long story a little shorter Bob hired a group of corporate "specialists". Among them was a oober hacker, A Face man, A Fixer type character, and a mage.

One night a littlewhile later the runners came home. Much to their suprise they found that their home had been robbed. Apparently the Crack addicts down the street were told by a friend of a friend of an acquantence that the shadowrunners had crack! After going down the street and killing the crack addicts as they deserved the shadowrunners went home. The next morning (ahem game session) they found woke up and found that their Notoriety had doubled! Quickly they called up their contacts and started asking them why? THe contacts told them that it would cost them. So the shadowrunners opened up their bank accounts and found that they had no nuyen! Apparently someone hacked their accounts! When they looked back to the contacts to tell them the contact told them to turn on the trid! Thinking that it was something interesting they did.

On the TV they saw that they were posted on the most wanted! Apparently people had taken video fotage of them when they were killing people and had leaked the information to the media. Now the media was saying that they were international criminals wanted for a bunch of stuff they didnt do!.

It got worse from there on also. Everywhere they went panic buttons would go off.
Everytime they met with thier johnsons they recieved less and less payout for more and more dangerous missions
They had hits put out for them by every organized crime ring in seattle (or where ever)
THe cops kept coming on and on!
Their contacts started ingnoring thier phone calls.
People on the street would randomly try to kill them!

You get the point

Basicly if they are going to play that type of game, run that type of game just be sure to include the proper consequences for that type of behavior.
Additionally if your are going to keep running game for these folk then you should be ready to adopted a sadistic evil GM attitude when it comes to that. IF they begin to wisen up then reward it but until then make their lives a living hell.

Looks like you got a lot of really well thought out responses to your problem, but I am going to tell it to you straight. There is no answer to your problem. You can't win. Your players want something from the game. That, obviously, is the feeling that they are badass Killy McStabandkills that can do whatever they want because they know how to abuse the rules. Guess what will happen when you don't give them that? They will complain until A) you give up and give them what they want or B) they loose interest.

Now, which one of those results best pans out for you? Do you have other people to play with? Is someone else in the group willing to run the game?

Look buddy, this is a game. Most RPG's are about escapism and hero worship. Just looks like to me that your friends have a sort of drekked up notion of what makes a hero. Too many Rambo movies I think. You can either play along or just walk away. How about a story arc where they actually manage to kill EVERYONE and they are the only ones left and start killing each other.

Just because PCs can't be bunker riggers doesn't mean the opposition can't be bunker riggers.

I hear some people saying "if they don't play your way, torment them by abusing your godlike GM powers." That's not a good thing to do. That way, you'll lose players and friends. If they're not going to play your way, taking revenge in-game is worthless. It won't save the game, it won't be fun for anyone. It won't teach a lesson to people who aren't bright enough to grasp the difference between PnP and FPS in the first place, it will just make them mad. The best solution is to get off that sinking ship of a game before it drowns you.

I agree with this. It's important to recognize that yes, as GM you can hit the "I win" button whenever you feel like it. It is trivial for you to contrive situations in which the players are defeated and humiliated. Some advocate this as a way of 'teaching the players a lesson.' It's unlike to work. The only lesson the players are likely to walk away with is that you as GM can contrive situations to defeat and humiliate them no matter what preparations or statistics they might have. And of course they would be right. This is most likely to cause resentment and detachment from the game by the players, and highly unlikely to produces changes in their behavior your desire. After all, if you easily defeated their fearsome death machines, how well might less devastating characters face? Indeed, they might (rightly) assume that no matter what kind of characters they develop and actions they take you could contrive a situation in which they would be defeated and humiliated. And they would be right.

They are not his friends. I think this should be established first since he is a pickup GM on this game. I think its kind of obvious why the previous GM left the group, and he has every right to say that he is done and walk away from a bunch of people who take the game waaaay to seriously.

Just saying that you have come to an impassible point and it's either your way or the highway is perfectly fine considering you might be the only person left who will GM with them. The guy who takes the game too seriously and you feel like he will throw a tantrum like a little baby might just need time to mature. Personally I have found that those people need to get a life, calm the F down, and then they can return to a gaming table a few years later and be tolerable. Yes it's a fantasy game, and yes people want to have it go the way they want, but it's stupid to just have everything you want. There is a reason why dice are rolled and why it doesn't always go your way.

Plus me thinks the group is involved in rampant cheating, and the easiest way to confirm this is to get a copy of all their character sheets and handle all the rolls for them. If they shoot you roll their attack dice and the defenders dice pool, you can ask them if they want to spend edge or not, but you can take the dice out of their hands. This way you can put up the dice modifiers and if you are good enough with head math you can slim down the combat time as well. If they put up a huge fight I think you know where they stand.

Even if the group is not cheating, even more they will not let you roll their dice. They would think that you are cheating. Especially since you are controlling the situational dice mods.

If they already think that way then the group is lost to begin with.

Not true. Rolling for your players lessens their sense of ownership of the characters. If they already are more concerned with the numbers to begin with, you want them to identify with their characters, not detach themselves from their PCs.

Ain't no such thing as a secret. Only truths that take longer to come to light. Hiding those weapons is going to take a security investment that costs more than covering them with a moldy tarp. And I would have a hard time believing that no one in the neighborhood spotted a group of young men sporting mil-spec-level firearms gallivanting to and from a warehouse/abandoned office building/whatever.

The PCs aren't coughing up the dough they need to be in order to keep those guns and other toys hidden. And that's where I'd hit them, in the pocketbook.