Size matters not, judge me by my size, do you? Options

[Stahlseele]

I just had a very strange line of thought that somehow ended with a spirit possessing things like anb aircraft carrier, lady liberty, the eifel tower, or the coloss of rhodos . .
i tried to read up on it, but i could not find any part in the books that tells you exactly how big something can be for a spirit to possess it . .
does it have something to do with force? probably, but in what way?
can a force 1 spirit only possess things with a volume of 1m³? or only things with mass enough to FILL 1m³? could a force one spirit possess a zeppelin?
what about something like a jumbo jet? or a super tanker or freighter ship?
heck, what ABOUT Lady Liberty like in Ghostbusters 2?
aside from such things being warded against exactly this sort of thing, what's to stop this from happening?

[pbangarth]

In Street Magic, p. 86, there is described the minimum size for a homunculus, at least (10 X Force) kilograms. No maximum size is given.

The only thing I can think of that would stop possession of something like an aircraft carrier is the technical complexity of the thing. The Object Resistance must be prohibitive. A GM would probably arrive at that object resistance by summing things like nuclear engine, sensor systems, weapon systems, etc. The Object Resistance Table in SR4, p. 174 shows "4+" for complex objects, and this would be a really big "+".

If you wanted to, you could also argue that something with a STR 5 could not move Lady Liberty, whereas it could move an automobile.

Peter

[Stahlseele]

if i cast an animate spell with enough force to overcome object resistance, lady liberty moves all alone O.o
and if a spirit possesses something, that thing becomes it's body, which acty just like a real body, or am i wrong?

[KarmaInferno]

Ray: The vibrations are breaking her up. We should have padded her feet.
Egon: I don't think they make Nikes in her size, Ray.
Peter: Hey, she's tough. She's a harbor chick!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-karma

[Stahlseele]

yes, like that ^^

[ornot]

I think the object resistance would be a large factor in this, and for stuff like possessing the Eiffel Tower or Lady Liberty, the new 'body' is not articulated so they surely couldn't move at all? I understood that a possessing spirit may only move an object in a manner in which said object was already capable of moving. Hence a mannequin or a puppet could walk around just fine, but a statue would remain a big inanimate hunk marble or stone or metal or whatever, although it would be able to use spirit powers on the physical plane.

[pbangarth]

Good point.

Peter

[Stahlseele]

hmm . . then how do golems work?
they are made of clay mostly . . they should break . . i guess it'S magic o.O
and the animate spell states that a statue will walk, even if the statue has no real joints . .

[pbangarth]

hmm . . then how do golems work?
they are made of clay mostly . . they should break . . i guess it'S magic o.O
and the animate spell states that a statue will walk, even if the statue has no real joints . .

Aren't golems still articulated to some degree? And the Animate spell has built into it the magic that makes things bend without breaking so they can ambulate. Spirits don't necessarily have that.

Peter

[Snow_Fox]

Ray: The vibrations are breaking her up. We should have padded her feet.
Egon: I don't think they make Nikes in her size, Ray.
Peter: Hey, she's tough. She's a harbor chick!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-karma

ok i'
m not the only person to think that. part of the problem with possession is the adapable parts. the statue of liberty doesn't move. she is not artuiculateds. A ship like the USS New Jersey or USS Intrepid have so many moving parts it might be beyond any spirit. I mean do they spin the prop, drive the piston?

[Stahlseele]

use movement-power? *g*

[ornot]

It says in the book that a spirit possessing a car can drive it around, so presumably a spirit possessing an aircraft carrier would be able to move the whole ship just as easily. Where you'd become unstuck would be the OR, which for something as techy and as massive should be absurdly high. On a tangent; can spirits possess just one part of a whole? For example the prop shaft of the above mentioned ship? How about the carburettor in a car? Hell of a lot easier than possessing the whole damned thing, and just as effective for ending pursuit.

[pbangarth]

Possessing a part of a really complex whole seems alright to me.

Peter

[Snowfall]

So if a spirit can possess a part of the whole, such as the prop or something . . . why not the gas tank ?

And while we're at it, anyone ever think of possessing someone's grenades and/or ammo ?

My point is where do we draw the line between machine sprites and magical spirits manipulating tech?

I personally think that letting the parts get possessed is a step toward instant mechanical death. Example, I possess the fuel pump and the car dies. I possess the firing mechanism, the gun stops. I possess the cyberlimb, and make that guy punch himself in the face to death . . .

[Stahlseele]

well, at least the limb is right out, as it's been paid for with essence and thus part of the body it belongs to . . you could only possess the whole body and punch the body to death with the own cyberlimb then . . then getting out of the body and healing up again . .
and i think it even says somewhere, that a spirit can not possess certain parts of things, only whole things . .
of course,all bets are off as soon as someone has a spirit possess the gas tank before building it into the car . .

[knasser]

I'm with the others in terms of boosting the object resistance for massive objects. Not just because of the technological aspect, but also due to size. You don't want a Force 1 spirit possessing giant redwoods or banyan trees. However, you might want the F6 earth spirit possessing the banyan tree.

Let's throw some numbers down here for the sake of argument:

From the SR4 BBB:

CODE

Category------------------------------------------------------   Threshold
Natural Objects----------------------------------------------
    (Trees, Soil, Unprocessed Water)---------------------            1
Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials-------
    (Brick, Leather, Simple Plastics)----------------------             2
Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials------
    (Advanced Plastics, Alloys, Electronic Equipment)             3
Highly Processed Objects---------------------------------
    (Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)    4+

Now we can take an additive approach or a multiplicative approach. Bearing in mind that you get +6 dice to your possession test if the vessel is prepared, we'd still be looking at the possibility of possessed air craft carriers, sky-scrapers, etc unless we made the additive modifiers supremely high so that they overwhelmed the OR modifiers. This would have the effect of making giant, natural objects effectively just as hard to possess and I personally like the idea of giant possessed banyan trees, collossal wicker men, etc. Or at least I want to retain the possibility. Therefore I'm going to use a multiplicative approach:

CODE

Category------------------------------------------------------   Threshold Multiplier
Medium Objects---------------------------------------------
    (Cars, Large Drones, Bikes, etc.)---------------------            x1
Imposing Objects--------------------------------------------
    (Lorries, Rooms, 8m+ trees, etc.)--------------------            x2
Massive Objects---------------------------------------------
    (House, Small Ship, 16m+ trees, etc.)--------------            x3
Super-massive Objects-------------------------------------
    (Large ships, rivers, tower-blocks, etc.)---------------          x4

Note that it might seem odd to start with something as chunky as a car as the smallest object, but I'm aiming to preserve compatibility with the existing rules. So whether it's a car or a gun or a child's doll (always the scariest option), it's the same.

I think this scales pretty well for a first draft. A lowly spirit is still going to struggle to possess something big and natural, like the river, but our Free Force 7 Water Spirit can pull it off (and create a very scary experience for the rafting merc team). On the other hand, the chances of possessing an air craft carrier are very low even for powerful spirits. Possessing something like a house, which we could peg as a "Massive" OR 3 object, would take 9 successes. It's a long-shot but with prepared vessel, a high force shadow spirit and an Edge re-roll, it could be done. That sort of thing would be a planned scenario, anyway. The important thing is that it's doable.

What do people think? Does it work?

K.

[knasser]

As regards possessing a part of the whole... I think we have to turn to magical thinking. How do we think of the thing? If it's a rope lying coiled on the deck of the aircraft carrier, then it can be possessed. If it's something that would reasonably be included when you talk of the larger whole however, I don't think it should be.

When I say "car" I mean the whole thing, naturally including the carburettor, the wheels, etc. I therefore rule out possessing the carburettor or the wheels.

There are some grey areas. You could perhaps have a room in a building be possessed - the archetypal "one haunted room" where everyone feels cold and no-one can spend the night in without dreams of murder. But on the whole, I think our intuition and language makes a pretty good guide to what should be seen as part of a whole and what should be seen as a possessable thing in its own right.

[The Jopp]

EDIT: meh, Knassers posts weren't there a second ago (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

The problem arises since ALL spirits get a 4+ on all vehicles by 2070 since they are all high tech marvels with optical electronics so making it harder for size is not really neccessary.

I've always counted the "4+" as being just 4 instead of an arbitrary number for the GM to change but there should be some demand on a spirits force and it's ability to "fit" in a vessel.

Force X Force as a maximum body attribute is a good rule of thumb since only a strong F6 spirit could handle something with body 36 and a F2 something small like a drone with body 4.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

One thing to consider in terms of what part of an object could be possessed is divulged from spellcasting theory. Spells effectively target the aural whole of the target and thus you cannot "call a shot" to a specific location within that aural whole. IE: a manabolt targets the whole person, you can't aim it at just their arm. Likewise, a powerbolt would target the entire car rather than just its wheels.

However, applying that philosophy to something as huge as an aircraft carrier, for example, seems a bit extreme. Overall though its best to judge via common sense and as a reflection of the power of a possessing spirit to the size of the object. A Great Form or Free Spirit is bound to have a greater degree of ability in this area, especially if it also uses the Hidden Life trait. Also, as long as the concept is rational and good for the flow of the game/story, then use it.

[Snow_Fox]

to get back to movement power, someone brought up a car. there's a difference in mass between a car, 3,000-4,000 pounds and a several thousand ton carrier. you could bring up a real abuse of power if the spirit can lift things that big just 'because'