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> Attribute boost, It can be taken both ways
masterofm
post Nov 25 2008, 09:48 PM
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Ok this is what confuses me and I underlined it.

Attribute Boost
Cost: .25 per level
You can call upon your inner strength to perform amazing
feats beyond your normal abilities. Attribute Boost must
be purchased for a specifi c Physical attribute: Agility, Body,
Reaction, and Strength (separate Attribute Boost powers may
be bought for diff erent attributes). It cannot be purchased for a
Mental or Special attribute.
To gain the boost, make a Magic + (Attribute Boost) Test.
Each hit on this test boosts the attribute by 1. Th e boost lasts
for a number of Combat Turns equal to the twice the number
of hits generated.
When the boost runs out, you must resist Drain equal
to the Attribute Boost rating using Willpower + Body; each
hit reduces the Drain Value by one. Attribute Boost Drain
is Stun damage.

The attribute bonus from Attribute Boost is not compatible
with any other attribute augmentations, whether from implants
or spells, with the exception of the Improved Physical
Attribute adept power.

Ok when dealing with the drain is it for every successful hit you get on the test do you take 1 Stun, or do you take Stun equal to the total rating of the attribute boosted, or is it 1 Stun per level of attribute boost?
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Mäx
post Nov 25 2008, 09:53 PM
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I would pick the "1 Stun per level of attribute boost"
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pbangarth
post Nov 25 2008, 09:55 PM
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Attribute Boost rating would be the levels you have in Attribute Boost. That is what you should be using as the Drain Value. So, if you have Attribute Boost (BOD) 6, then you would have a Drain Value of 6S, no matter how many hits you got.

Peter
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masterofm
post Nov 25 2008, 10:19 PM
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So if you had 2 ranks or levels in Attribute boost with a natural 4 in body.

Situation 1: Lets say you got lucky and got 5 hits knocking your body up to a 9 you would take 9 S, or 2 S (for the level of attribute boost,) or 5 S (for the ranks of increased Attribute.)

Situation 2: What if you got 0 hits would you take 4 S, or 2 S, or 0 S?

This darn rule is so vague and be taken so many different ways. Can I get a higher up ruling from say Synner or AncientHistory?
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Fortune
post Nov 25 2008, 11:36 PM
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If you have 2 levels of Attribute Boost, you would resist 2S Drain upon successful use of the Power, regardless of the amount of hits you got to actually boost the Attribute.

If you got '0' hits on the test to activate the Power, then you would not have to resist Drain, as Drain only takes place 'when the Boost runs out'.
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Kurious
post Nov 25 2008, 11:50 PM
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I always took it as, you boost your stat by 3, when it runs out you resist 3 stun. The level of the ability is moot.

It makes the most sense that way, at least to me, this way you have an actual risk of drain damage... whereas if you only take one level of it, you can score 2-3 hits fairly easy and never risk any drain.

Would love to find an official clarification though.
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masterofm
post Nov 26 2008, 12:24 AM
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If you got 0 hits you would take the drain instantly as 0 hits means it ran out right after you activated it not that you flubbed. At least that is what I think is a decent ruling. I also means you just can't constantly attribute boost willy nilly w/o eventually taking a hit no matter how poorly you roll.

The problem is it is vaguely worded, however I agree with you Fortune that it is the levels of attribute boost and not the successes or what your attribute becomes. Yet you can see that there are different ideas on how this applies.

I personally find the idea of taking the full amount of what your augmented body or strength becomes as stupid. If a troll has a 14 strength or 14 body then using this trait has a good chance of KOing them on one success. Mages get spells that can do the same thing except they can be physical OR mental attributes that get boosted. They can then rock out with this spell (take the drain only once) and then stuff it inside of a sustaining foci and walk around as a badass for however long they want that foci to be active. The fact that they would not take insane amounts of stun when the adept will I find to be unbalancing and a poor use of game mechanics.
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Fortune
post Nov 26 2008, 12:27 AM
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QUOTE (Kurious)
I always took it as, you boost your stat by 3, when it runs out you resist 3 stun. The level of the ability is moot.


QUOTE (Attribute Boost Power)
When the boost runs out, you must resist Drain equal to the Attribute Boost rating using Willpower + Body


I really don't see how this is unclear.

QUOTE (masterofm)
If you got 0 hits you would take the drain instantly as 0 hits means it ran out right after you activated it not that you flubbed.


Ah, but the Attribute was not actually boosted in the first place, so the Power does not technically 'run out'. Personally though, I think that if you get no hits on this test, you are facing much bigger problems than a measly amount of Drain.
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Muspellsheimr
post Nov 26 2008, 12:29 AM
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By RAW, Fortune is correct.

I however would rule it as the amount you boost by, not the rating of the power or what you boost to.
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masterofm
post Nov 26 2008, 12:29 AM
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Neither did I, but in my situation I had attribute level 1 magic 5. I used edge so I rolled 11 dice coming up with 5 hits. I boosted my agility from 4 to 9 and then after it wore off I was told that I was taking 5 S. I only thought I was taking 1 S, but apparently it was read differently by my GM, and by others on Dumpshock.

I'm more of the opinion that it should only be 1 S as adepts need to be thrown a freekin' bone to compete against mages. The only time its fairly good is having a high edge pool and using it to help out your attribute boost.

Kurious thinks one way, Peter thinks another, my interpretation and yours is the third.
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WeaverMount
post Nov 26 2008, 12:57 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 25 2008, 07:27 PM) *
Ah, but the Attribute was not actually boosted in the first place, so the Power does not technically 'run out'. Personally though, I think that if you get no hits on this test, you are facing much bigger problems than a measly amount of Drain.


I'd hit a PC with drain on no hit. Conjuring and Sorcery specifically encore drain when you don't get any hits towards an effect. It's also such a minor nit pick I wouldn't care either way at a real table
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masterofm
post Nov 26 2008, 01:03 AM
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Oh yeah... also since the rules to not mention what type of action you take with attribute boost is it a free action, a simple action, a complex action, or can you just do it whenever you want w/o taking up any type of action. What is the official ruling on this?
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Kurious
post Nov 26 2008, 01:04 AM
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It was clarified in the errata- it is a simple action.
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pbangarth
post Nov 26 2008, 01:18 AM
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In response to some queries about meanings, timing, etc.:

1. SR4, p. 187: "Many adept powers may be purchased at a variable rating. The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept's Magic attribute."

So, rating of the power is equivalent to level of power. Therefore, "...resist Drain equal to the Attribute Boost rating" refers to the level of the power the adept has. Attribute Boost (BOD) at level 6 is Attribute Boost (BOD) at rating 6, and the Drain for using this power is 6.

2. Just as with spells and conjuring, where failing to make the spell work or call the spirit still requires a Drain resistance roll, so too the failure of Attribute Boost to boost an Attribute still channels magic which must be resisted. Sucks to be incompetent.

3. Since use of the Attribute Boost power requires a Magic + (Attribute Boost) Test, it should take as long as any other active test, shouldn't it? Is there any Attribute + Skill/Power Test that doesn't take an action? It seems to me to be at least a Simple, if not Complex Action.

Peter

EDIT: I see the errata reference now.
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Fortune
post Nov 26 2008, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Nov 26 2008, 11:57 AM) *
I'd hit a PC with drain on no hit. Conjuring and Sorcery specifically encore drain when you don't get any hits towards an effect. It's also such a minor nit pick I wouldn't care either way at a real table


Oh, I probably would as well, but that would be a house rule. I was merely pointing out the actual wording of the Power, which is quite specific in regards to when and if Drain is suffered. Conjuring and Sorcery are also quite specific in their rulings about Drain, but no more so than this Power.
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Fortune
post Nov 26 2008, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 26 2008, 12:18 PM) *
1. SR4, p. 187: "Many adept powers may be purchased at a variable rating. The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept's Magic attribute."

So, rating of the power is equivalent to level of power. Therefore, "...resist Drain equal to the Attribute Boost rating" refers to the level of the power the adept has. Attribute Boost (BOD) at level 6 is Attribute Boost (BOD) at rating 6, and the Drain for using this power is 6.


Right.

QUOTE
2. Just as with spells and conjuring, where failing to make the spell work or call the spirit still requires a Drain resistance roll, so too the failure of Attribute Boost to boost an Attribute still channels magic which must be resisted. Sucks to be incompetent.


I disagree.

QUOTE
3. Since use of the Attribute Boost power requires a Magic + (Attribute Boost) Test, it should take as long as any other active test, shouldn't it? Is there any Attribute + Skill/Power Test that doesn't take an action? It seems to me to be at least a Simple, if not Complex Action.


The Errata states that it is a Simple Action.

QUOTE
EDIT: I see the errata reference now.


Meh. I ain't changing my post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Caadium
post Dec 1 2008, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (masterofm @ Nov 25 2008, 04:29 PM) *
Neither did I, but in my situation I had attribute level 1 magic 5. I used edge so I rolled 11 dice coming up with 5 hits. I boosted my agility from 4 to 9 and then after it wore off I was told that I was taking 5 S. I only thought I was taking 1 S, but apparently it was read differently by my GM, and by others on Dumpshock.


I've been away from SR for a while, and am just getting into 4th edition, but this quote brings up a question. In the old rules powers like Attribute Boost could give a maximum boost equal to the level of the power. In other words, with Boost 1 and Magic 5 your Agility would never be raised beyond 5 no matter how much edge you spent or how many hits you got.

Have I just simply made an error and assumed that rules like this have carried forward, or were they actually kept in there and are being overlooked in this thread? I mostly want to know so I can let my players know that I'll be implementing it as a house rule if they did in fact take it out. Without these limits powers (and even spells) like this quickly became over powered. In my opinion, and that of previous edition writers, a .25 power point cost doesn't justify the potential to raise an attribute from 4 to 9 (more than double!) with VERY minimal risk of drain.

More directly related to the original post the only time someone using the limits I asked about would expect a different drain is if they rolled less hits than their max. In that case I'd still use the rating of the power as the soak. It's not much different than any spell really; what affects your drain is the power of the spell attempted, no matter how well you succeed.
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Fortune
post Dec 1 2008, 10:05 AM
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By canon, you only need one level of the Attribute Boost Power to potentially raise your stat a number of points equal to your Magic Attribute.
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WeaverMount
post Dec 1 2008, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Dec 1 2008, 05:40 AM) *
I've been away from SR for a while, and am just getting into 4th edition, but this quote brings up a question. In the old rules powers like Attribute Boost In my opinion, and that of previous edition writers, a .25 power point cost doesn't justify the potential to raise an attribute from 4 to 9 (more than double!) with VERY minimal risk of drain.


Adepts don't need any nerfs. The hidden suck of attribute boost (in 4th ed at least) is the duration. It's only magic rounds. That means that you will be adding up the drain and simple actions frequently if you try to keep it on much at all. IMO paying a .25 PP for a power should get you a bigger bonus than aiming or around.
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ElFenrir
post Dec 1 2008, 12:09 PM
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Yeah, the boost is limited enough without getting tons of drain from a lucky roll. I mean, if you cast a Mana Bolt spell at force 6, which makes it's damage 6P, and you get lucky and roll 6 hits, it boosts the damage to 12(6 is the most hits you can get since it's limited by Force.). You still save against the Drain as if it's force 6.

With attribute boost, you use it, and regardless of how many hits you get, you roll against the level of the power. I agree it's not overpowered to begin with, and thus does not need the added nerf of having more Drain depending on the hits you get. I had an Adept with Agility and Strength Boost level 2. His magic was 6. On average, I got 2 hits, sometimes only 1, sometimes around 3. It's a pretty cool power, but it ain't that powerful. Naturally, the higher level you take the power, the more dice you get to roll, and the better chance of you getting the boost. The power at level 6 should have a bit of a risk to it, since with 12 dice, you have a shot of nailing home 3-4 successes on average, rather than just 1-2.

And yeah, Adepts do have it kind of rough enough already with certain things. Well, I won't say all adepts, but the classic physads, at least, have it rougher compared to those who choose other paths. I've been trying to get physads up to higher levels lately, not lower. Hmm...sort of inspires me for another thread.
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pbangarth
post Dec 1 2008, 04:18 PM
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Attribute Boost is one of the few Adept Powers that uses the Magic Attribute in the Success Test. Therefore it can benefit from the help of a Power Focus. From Chargen, an adept with Magic 5, Attribute Boost (xxx) 2, and a Power Focus Force 2 could expect to get 3 hits, for a Drain Value of 2.

Whether this would be enough to convince you to spend the BPs to get a Power focus is another question.

Peter
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Caadium
post Dec 1 2008, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Dec 1 2008, 04:09 AM) *
Yeah, the boost is limited enough without getting tons of drain from a lucky roll. I mean, if you cast a Mana Bolt spell at force 6, which makes it's damage 6P, and you get lucky and roll 6 hits, it boosts the damage to 12(6 is the most hits you can get since it's limited by Force.). You still save against the Drain as if it's force 6.


As I said, Drain is based on the level of the power similar to the force of a spell. Number of hits has no bearing on drain. However, much like your above example, the amount of hits you can get is also limited by the power. This comes from older versions of SR, and I was just asking if it had changed. Spells haven't, so I definitely see no reason not to keep the limitation on adept powers (at least in my games).

QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Dec 1 2008, 02:43 AM)
The hidden suck of attribute boost (in 4th ed at least) is the duration. It's only magic rounds. That means that you will be adding up the drain and simple actions frequently if you try to keep it on much at all. IMO paying a .25 PP for a power should get you a bigger bonus than aiming or around.


In most SR that I've played a LARGE number of fights are either done or mostly done within a few rounds. Since most adepts have at least a 5 magic, the only time you are 'adding up the drain and simple actions frequently' is in a large combat when an Adept tries to make a temporary boost power permanent. And if you want a permanent boost there is a separate power for that
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WeaverMount
post Dec 1 2008, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Dec 1 2008, 12:39 PM) *
In most SR that I've played a LARGE number of fights are either done or mostly done within a few rounds. Since most adepts have at least a 5 magic, the only time you are 'adding up the drain and simple actions frequently' is in a large combat when an Adept tries to make a temporary boost power permanent. And if you want a permanent boost there is a separate power for that


At my table one side of a fight usually holds the field in 1 or 2 rounds, even the large ones. Attribute boost will absolutely last your for that. I thinking of the fact that it doesn't help you on surprise, and is more thing to do while setting up. Also Improved Attribute is one of the worst powers in the game.
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Muspellsheimr
post Dec 1 2008, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Dec 1 2008, 02:14 PM) *
Also Improved Attribute is one of the worst powers in the game.

What the hell are you talking about - one of?
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ElFenrir
post Dec 1 2008, 08:53 PM
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There is a large part of me that's wanted to go over many of the Physad style powers and retool a lot of them. I mean, they'd be good for our table, I don't expect everyone to agree with them since we all have different styles, but I just have this nagging part of me that wants to bring back a great version of the ''au naturale'' physad, without it being ''more optimal'' to plug 2 essence worth of 'ware in. There is nothing wrong with choices or having to make a choice, and if someone wants to play an adept with 'ware they should be able to...but I dunno. While Shadowrun is all about magic, man, machine, etc...it just seems that the choice of playing ''Pure Physad'' and ''Physad with a couple of points of ware'' ends up being choice 2 every time. When one of two choices gets picked every time, I can't help but feel something is off.

Attribute boost would get retooled, Improved Attribute would be VERY revamped(and yeah...one of? Hah. Worst power, easily), Reflexes is getting a one-over. Some of the powers I'd want to see revamped a bit, others simply re-priced(like Imp. Attribute. The suck from that comes from the fact it's horribly overpriced.) I don't want to see the sam disappear; if anything, the sam will still absolutely have their place; I do believe there is still ware that can do what powers can't(and vice versa; each should have their perks), and I always said that one of the perks to sams is the full use of powers in things like background counts/Mana Static(which can, and do, exist, and a high enough one can turn an adept into a mundane.)

Hmm...give this some time.
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