Very Bad Things..., When Evil Genius Goes Too Far!! Options

[Mickle5125]

sounds like one of those crappy pr0n games floating around the internet...

[JonathanC]

Well, there was the time we ripped off a Mitsuhama black research facility, slaughtered a gaggle of captive technomancers MCT was experimenting on, executed all the researchers, and then blew the place to bits...

...or the time we got 9x9 to launch a series of major attacks in downtown Honk Kong, knocking out communications and tying up police and traffic, while we dosed most of the business district with Warp and set off a major rooftop firefight between the security forces of several neighboring buildings--all so we could rob a bank.

We also kinda got Kowloon bombed by Knight Errant during the getaway.

But blackmailing poor Joe Wageslave with faked gay troll porn, and then forcing him to hotsim it so he'd know what would happen if he didn't do what we said--that was basically rape. By a troll. Felt kinda' bad for the guy when he tried to call the cops and ended up spending the rest of the run in hotsim getting pounded by 'Dermal Deposit Dan'. Even worse considering the guy was anti-metahuman and the emotive tracks were programed to make him like it...

>shudders<

...yeah, sometimes my capacity for horrific cruelty disturbs even me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm not sure that you *can* force someone into hot-sim VR. I mean, unless this random schmoe had his commlink modded for hot-sim, the worst you could do is pop him into cold-sim, and unless you somehow trapped him in a UV node, there's nothing stopping him from just logging off. The worst you could do is force him to dumpshock himself.

[TheOOB]

I'm not sure that you *can* force someone into hot-sim VR. I mean, unless this random schmoe had his commlink modded for hot-sim, the worst you could do is pop him into cold-sim, and unless you somehow trapped him in a UV node, there's nothing stopping him from just logging off. The worst you could do is force him to dumpshock himself.

Black programs still cause stun damage and jam open the link if someone is using cold sim, they just don't(and can't ever) do physical damage.

But yes, while someone who has a DNI and a simsense unit can be forced into VR, you cannot force them into hot sim unless the hardware is altered to be hot sim. You'd might have better luck finding a drug, magical effect that forces them to astrally perceive and sicking a spirit on them, but that would be evil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[JonathanC]

Well, keeping you trapped in a node is one thing, forcing you into viewing a sim is something else. I'm pretty sure the only way to override a person's mental control is through psychotropic IC (which takes a while) or a neural shunt (used by bunraku parlors). While the idea is definitely evil, I don't think that it could work as described by normal Shadowrun rules. Agents just aren't that cool.

[TheOOB]

Well, keeping you trapped in a node is one thing, forcing you into viewing a sim is something else. I'm pretty sure the only way to override a person's mental control is through psychotropic IC (which takes a while) or a neural shunt (used by bunraku parlors). While the idea is definitely evil, I don't think that it could work as described by normal Shadowrun rules. Agents just aren't that cool.

They do mention in unwired I believe that matrix rape of children is a serious growing crime, it at least shows that it's possible.

[Neraph]

Black programs still cause stun damage and jam open the link if someone is using cold sim, they just don't(and can't ever) do physical damage.

Stun Damage Overflow. Stun becomes Physical damage.

[TheOOB]

Stun Damage Overflow. Stun becomes Physical damage.

Blackout specifically notes that it's damage doesn't overflow into the physical, and black hammer states that it only does stun damage to cold sim users, which considering the wording of the statement, the precedent set by blackout, and the simple fact that there is a hardware restriction against lethal amount of biofeedback, it can be assumed that black hammer cold sim damage doesn't overflow into physical.

[JonathanC]

They do mention in unwired I believe that matrix rape of children is a serious growing crime, it at least shows that it's possible.

I have Unwired, and I don't recall seeing that anywhere. It seems especially unlikely given how rare VR use is among regular people. I mean...where's the DNI interface in the average 2070 person? Non-hackers have no reason to do anything besides AR for the most part, so the worst you can do to...well...damn near everybody, is spam them, or maybe burn out their commlink.

[WeaverMount]

I'm not sure that you *can* force someone into hot-sim VR. I mean, unless this random schmoe had his commlink modded for hot-sim, the worst you could do is pop him into cold-sim, and unless you somehow trapped him in a UV node, there's nothing stopping him from just logging off. The worst you could do is force him to dumpshock himself.

Actually hot-sim mods are likely one of the single most common illegal devices in the setting. Hobo's have hot-sim. For one thing they let you slot BTLs. Second, on many jobs +2 to matrix actions and an extra IP can help you make up that lost time for an extra bathroom brake ... where you slotted a BTL you needed to unwind from working hard enough to get a promotion ... so you can buy more and better BTLs ...

But you are right the particular schmoe they want to hose could easily not have hot-sim. But if he really is a schmoe breaking into his house and swapping out his link is cake.

Also I think trodes are pretty popular. Slap those on you have a full sensory of AR data

[Heath Robinson]

Blackout specifically notes that it's damage doesn't overflow into the physical, and black hammer states that it only does stun damage to cold sim users, which considering the wording of the statement, the precedent set by blackout, and the simple fact that there is a hardware restriction against lethal amount of biofeedback, it can be assumed that black hammer cold sim damage doesn't overflow into physical.

Black Hammer overflows the Condition Monitor just like other damage

[JonathanC]

Actually hot-sim mods are likely one of the single most common illegal devices in the setting. Hobo's have hot-sim. For one thing they let you slot BTLs. Second, on many jobs +2 to matrix actions and an extra IP can help you make up that lost time for an extra bathroom brake ... where you slotted a BTL you needed to unwind from working hard enough to get a promotion ... so you can buy more and better BTLs ...

But you are right the particular schmoe they want to hose could easily not have hot-sim. But if he really is a schmoe breaking into his house and swapping out his link is cake.

Also I think trodes are pretty popular. Slap those on you have a full sensory of AR data

Hot-sim is popular among chipheads and hackers, that's about it. Nobody else will get much out of it, and anyone with sense is going to avoid something that can allow someone to fry your brain remotely. Legitimately employed people *can't* have the damn thing, because it's illegal, and they'd get caught the first time they passed through a cyberware detector (airports, train stations, secured working areas, etc.)

Trodes are definitely popular, but they only allow you to use cold sim. You need DNI to get hot-sim, so either an internal commlink or a datajack. So the scenario seems particularly unlikely to me. Not only that, but now that I think of it...since when can someone hack your link and PUSH you into hot-sim? I could see it being done with surgery, but otherwise? Not so much.

[Fortune]

Trodes are capable of DNI, and can be used for hot sim.

[JonathanC]

When did that happen? I thought trodes were always cold-sim only.

[Fortune]

Since at least the advent of SR4.

[JonathanC]

Perhaps, but I still don't think that you could force a random person to go into hot-sim remotely, especially if their rig hasn't been converted for it.

[Fortune]

I didn't dispute that. Merely your statement about 'trodes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tyro]

Some people don't want datajacks to be obsolete, and houserule that trodes are cold-sim only and/or aren't as efficient in some way. That's the way I would do it; RAW doesn't really give a non-fluff reason to ever use datajacks that I'm aware of.

[JonathanC]

Fair enough; but is there any official word on this? I kind of imagined that cold/hot sim was some kind of a mental command, and it makes sense that there would be locks built in to prevent random people from spiking you with hot sim.

[Fortune]

Fair enough; but is there any official word on this?

A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack or trode net.

I kind of imagined that cold/hot sim was some kind of a mental command, and it makes sense that there would be locks built in to prevent random people from spiking you with hot sim.

Hot Sim capablity requires adapting the actual hardware being used. If the person's gear isn't adapted for hot sim, it just isn't possible.

[JonathanC]

Hot Sim capablity requires adapting the actual hardware being used. If the person's gear isn't adapted for hot sim, it just isn't possible.

Yes, I know that much. But assuming that you had hot-sim, is it possible for someone to:

a) force you to use hotsim
b) force you to watch a simsense recording (couldn't you just turn it off?)

[Ragewind]

Yes, I know that much. But assuming that you had hot-sim, is it possible for someone to:

a) force you to use hotsim
b) force you to watch a simsense recording (couldn't you just turn it off?)

Yes, as long as they have admin access to your "Link (/Cough Hacking /Cough)

[JonathanC]

Yes, as long as they have admin access to your "Link (/Cough Hacking /Cough)

That...doesn't make much sense. Admin access gives you access to their data and their devices, but cold sim/hot sim is something that affects your own experience, like choosing ANSI colors or not when you're logging into a MUD, or deciding which browser you're using. They can take control of your device, but not your personal account.

Besides, that would mean that technomancers are constantly getting brain fried, since they're *always* wired to use hot sim.

[Neraph]

Some people don't want datajacks to be obsolete, and houserule that trodes are cold-sim only and/or aren't as efficient in some way. That's the way I would do it; RAW doesn't really give a non-fluff reason to ever use datajacks that I'm aware of.

Datajacks are a one-time deal, whereas if you want to upgrade your implanted 'link, you need to re'plant it. Not very fun.

[Ragewind]

That...doesn't make much sense. Admin access gives you access to their data and their devices, but cold sim/hot sim is something that affects your own experience, like choosing ANSI colors or not when you're logging into a MUD, or deciding which browser you're using. They can take control of your device, but not your personal account.

Besides, that would mean that technomancers are constantly getting brain fried, since they're *always* wired to use hot sim.

If you have access to the hardware you can make it do anything the user could do. Yes even turn itself off. If you load a Simsense recording onto it you can initiate the program, and override the command the user may input to turn it off. Easy

[JonathanC]

If you have access to the hardware you can make it do anything the user could do. Yes even turn itself off. If you load a Simsense recording onto it you can initiate the program, and override the command the user may input to turn it off. Easy

Um...that's kind of how it might work with our computer systems, but in SR wouldn't you have to be constantly fighting the person in Cybercombat if you wanted to stop them? I mean, since you're actually "there" in the matrix and all that.

As for turning it off....you can't turn off a technomancer's brain. And you could definitely watch a simsense recording on a node, but you're in control of their mode, not their avatar. So you can't control what their avatar is doing. And again, this is assuming that you could somehow drag them into hot-sim VR when most people are just hanging out in AR, which is always cold-sim.