Does natural magic stack with quality given magic? Options

[Gnat]

I like to make characters as a time waster/hobby. One I'm working/thinking about is a shape shifter adept, or shape shifter adept hacker. The question I have is, shape shifter start with 1 in magic. If I take the adept quality will that give me another 1 in magic for a starting total of 2 in magic?

The other question I have is when does essence loss take into effect during character building? For example I decide to go with 6 in magic and use up a total of 3.0 essence in bioware reducing my active magic score to 3. Does the essence loss go into effect before or after the magic score increase? Or does it not matter during char gen, and I'm just being to nit-picky?

[Heath Robinson]

1) No, you gain the Magic attribute itself from taking an Awakened quality, but if you already have it then it just gives you the appropriate powerset. The important thing to note is that what you gain is access to the attribute instead of the base rating in the attribute. Mundanes don't have Magic 0, they have no Magic attribute at all.

2) The Purchase Attributes section of Chargen comes before the Acquire Resources/Choose Qualities sections, so the Magic increases come into effect first. Despite the fact that you actually acquire the Awakened qualities in the Qualities section, you are assumed to be able to retroactively purchase your Magic increases.

[pbangarth]

1) No, you gain the Magic attribute itself from taking an Awakened quality, but if you already have it then it just gives you the appropriate powerset. The important thing to note is that what you gain is access to the attribute instead of the base rating in the attribute. Mundanes don't have Magic 0, they have no Magic attribute at all.

2) The Purchase Attributes section of Chargen comes before the Acquire Resources/Choose Qualities sections, so the Magic increases come into effect first. Despite the fact that you actually acquire the Awakened qualities in the Qualities section, you are assumed to be able to retroactively purchase your Magic increases.

This would appear to be a bit of circular reasoning on the part of the manual, don't you think?

Peter

[Fortune]

I take a hint from the Latent Awakening Quality and Metahuman stats, and only make players pay for the character's final Magic Attribute (after deductions). I don't much care if it's actual canon, although as I said, there are precedents for my ruling.

[Neraph]

Hmmm would I be right in assuming buying the magician quality for a race/option/etc with a natural magic points doesn't get another free?

Ancient History
No, buying the Magician/Adept/Mystic Adept, etc. quality doesn't net you another Magic point for free. On the other hand, you can now initiate which is a good thing.

There ya go.

EDIT: From the Unofficial Runner's Compaion Errata, found here http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23072

[Gnat]

Thank you very much guys for the info, as usual my fellow Dumpshockers are knowledgable in all things SR.

[Muspellsheimr]

By RAW, you must pay for Magic lost due to Essence Loss (unless playing an Infected with Essence Loss weakness - they have their own specific rules).

[Fortune]

Not really arguing the point, but can you provide an actual quote to that effect?

[Cain]

2) The Purchase Attributes section of Chargen comes before the Acquire Resources/Choose Qualities sections, so the Magic increases come into effect first. Despite the fact that you actually acquire the Awakened qualities in the Qualities section, you are assumed to be able to retroactively purchase your Magic increases.

This is incorrect. You can buy gear/attributes in whatever order you feel like. This is actually common for some people and their character creation styles: they invest in the areas they want high first, buying 'ware and core abilities, then fleshing everything else out last.

[Glyph]

Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essense lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essense below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1.

I can see the reasoning behind Fortune's house rule, but the RAW is fairly clear.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

I like to make characters as a time waster/hobby. One I'm working/thinking about is a shape shifter adept, or shape shifter adept hacker. The question I have is, shape shifter start with 1 in magic. If I take the adept quality will that give me another 1 in magic for a starting total of 2 in magic?

The other question I have is when does essence loss take into effect during character building? For example I decide to go with 6 in magic and use up a total of 3.0 essence in bioware reducing my active magic score to 3. Does the essence loss go into effect before or after the magic score increase? Or does it not matter during char gen, and I'm just being to nit-picky?

*grumble* shape-shifters *grumble* stacking magic *grumble grumble* adding cyberware *grumble* twinky bastard players *grumble grumble*.

[Fortune]

... but the RAW is fairly clear.

The quote you posted has nothing to do with chargen. It is a general rule about the relationship of Magic and Essence. I requested a quote that discusses the actual BP costs for those 'lost' Magic points.

[Glyph]

Page 84 also says "Any reductions to a character's Essense will also affect his Magic or Resonance (see p. 62)." If you get cyberware or bioware, whether at character creation or afterwards, it affects Magic or Resonance. It is always talked about in the context of reducing Magic or Resonance, never only affecting the maximum rating for them.

[Fortune]

As I said earlier, I am not arguing that it is not canon. I am simply asking for a specific quote that states that 'lost' Magic points must be paid for at chargen. That quote merely acknowledges that Magic (and Resonance) is affected when Essence is reduced. It doesn't actually directly address chargen BP costs.

[pbangarth]

As I said earlier, I am not arguing that it is not canon. I am simply asking for a specific quote that states that 'lost' Magic points must be paid for at chargen. That quote merely acknowledges that Magic (and Resonance) is affected when Essence is reduced. It doesn't actually directly address chargen BP costs.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but for a point to be 'lost', don't you have to have it first? And how do you have it, if you don't pay for it? In the OP question about a Changeling type entity with a natural point of Magic, do you not pay for that point as part of the cost of the Changeling?

Peter

[Muspellsheimr]

Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not
aff ect other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also aff ect his
Magic or Resonance (see p. 62).

Character Generation > Assigning Resources > Gear > Cyberware and Bioware

[Fortune]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but for a point to be 'lost', don't you have to have it first? And how do you have it, if you don't pay for it?

As I said, the precedent is set with Latent Awakening, and even with metahuman Attributes. A Troll does not have to pay for the Attribute points in those stats that he has negatives (unlike previous editions). He merely has lower Attribute maximums. The same principle could (and maybe should) be said for the Magic Attribute.

Character Generation > Assigning Resources > Gear > Cyberware and Bioware

Same quote as Glyph provided. It does not address BP costs, but merely mentions the synergy between Essence and Magic (and Resonance). The reductions discussed could very well refer to the Attribute maximums. Note that the quote you provided does not actually say that reductions in Essence reduce the Magic Attribute, merely that those Essence reductions affect it (which would still be the case if only the Attribute maximum is reduced).

[Prime Mover]

We've had similar problems around our table once concerning an astral knack.

Players may purchase abilities in any order they choose (p.72, SR4)

This really doesn't solve the core of problem but does lean it one way. More houserule then RAW when applying it but the only thing covering this dilemma. Treating say astral knack as a latent awakening late in creation allows you avoid those magic vs essence pitfalls till after chargen.

Edit: As suggested to me previously, its really your GM's call.

[Muspellsheimr]

Same quote as Glyph provided. It does not address BP costs, but merely mentions the synergy between Essence and Magic (and Resonance). The reductions discussed could very well refer to the Attribute maximums. Note that the quote you provided does not actually say that reductions in Essence reduce the Magic Attribute, merely that those Essence reductions affect it (which would still be the case if only the Attribute maximum is reduced).

The quote is from a section of Character Generation, & thus is detailing effects in character generation. It provides a page reference for rules on how lost Essence affects Magic/Resonance - under the page reference, it tells you that for each point or partial point of Essence lost, you reduce your Magic/Resonance attribute and maximum by one.

It seems pretty clear to me that with the Rules as Written (with quotes already provided), Essence reductions during character generation do reduce your starting Magic/Resonance.

[Stahlseele]

this also means that latent awakening is basically crap, as you burn out immediately if you have somehow lost any essence at all prior to awakening . .
be it from drugs, a vampire inviting you over for dinner, or your job requiring you to use something like cyberware . .
you would have to wait for all of that untill the GM decides:"he was a good boy, let him pimp his poor useless character a bit by giving him an awakening"
then initiate at least once and raise magic to 2 and THEN go to spend your first point of essence . .

[Fortune]

The quote is from a section of Character Generation, & thus is detailing effects in character generation.

Lowering the character's maximum Magic Attribute (only) at chargen is also a perfectly valid interpretation of the quote you gave.

It provides a page reference for rules on how lost Essence affects Magic/Resonance - under the page reference, it tells you that for each point or partial point of Essence lost, you reduce your Magic/Resonance attribute and maximum by one.

The character doesn't actually have a Magic Attribute till the completion of chargen, just as a Troll character doesn't have an actual Charisma Attribute to penalize, other than to limit the stat's maximum rating.

[WeaverMount]

this also means that latent awakening is basically crap, as you burn out immediately if you have somehow lost any essence at all prior to awakening . .
be it from drugs, a vampire inviting you over for dinner, or your job requiring you to use something like cyberware . .
you would have to wait for all of that untill the GM decides:"he was a good boy, let him pimp his poor useless character a bit by giving him an awakening"
then initiate at least once and raise magic to 2 and THEN go to spend your first point of essence . .

Actually as fortune pointed out latent awakening works differently. It specifically says that you gain a magic attribute of 1. If you have 4 points of ware installed you now have a magic of 1 with max of 2. It's actually pretty cheesy

[Glyph]

But on the negative side, you start out as an awakened character with NO magical skills or spells whatsoever, and in addition you have no control over what type of awakened character you become (although I imagine most GMs will still sound out the player to see what he wants, beforehand). Even for an adept, you need to spend time learning how to control your power.

[Gnat]

Err... Okay, I've only made two magic characters and I've never played one in game. I have read the rules but I'm sure I don't understand them entirely, since I've yet to actually use them. Plus I normally prefer to make and play hackers. So....

I make my Shapeshifter. It has 1 point of magic that it starts with due to it's Metatype. I Buy 5 points in magic giving it a total of 6 magic, then initiate myself paying the needed BP cost which would give me a total of 7 magic. (Please correct me if I missed or messed a step up)

I then purchase my Cyberware/Bioware which reduces my essence by 1.80. Which leaves me with an essence of 4.20. But reduces my magic score from a 6 to a 4. But Since I'm a 1st level initiate that would leave my total magic of 5and for Spell Points at a 5 also. Is that correct?

Is this all correct? If not please let me know what I messed up and on what page I can read it on and what book.

Now another question is, I've bought my magic skill up to 6 plus initiation to a total of 7. Now when I roll my magic attribute for any sort of test do I roll 5 or 7 dice?

This is all done during character creation and does not involve the "Latent Awakening" quality.

[Stahlseele]

pretty much correct aside for some minor things.
1. Shifters and ware don't mix well, it will probably just be expelled in a rather nasty way as your body tries to fix itself up.
2. the magical skill has, aside from the magic attribute being used, nothing to do with your magic attribute. as far as i understand, you could be a mage with spellcasting at 7 in char gen, even with only one point of magic to cast spells with . .
you roll skill plus attribute, so with skill at 6 and magic at 6 you roll now 12 dice . . if you initiate and then pay karma to raise your magic ATTRIBUTE, then you roll 13 dice . .