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> Ancient vampires.
Hagga
post Dec 6 2008, 01:36 PM
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Could, say, a Nosferatu (I know, I know, in ED they didn't exist, but let's pretend they do through the magic of handwaving), Banshee or vanilla Vampire surive from the previous age of magic, or a mana spike? As in, would their essence drain power still function?
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2008, 01:43 PM
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It's probably possible (given said handwaving), but I would imagine that some kind of ritual would be needed. Magic did work during the downtime, but the Mana level was so low that what mages can do with a mere thought in 2070 would take hours or maybe even days of ritualistic accompaniment in 1870.
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sunnyside
post Dec 6 2008, 01:48 PM
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I'd say there are already immortal elves. No need to open up a can of Ann Rice or the emo writer of your choice.

However vamps and ghouls are, I think, horror related.
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Wanderer
post Dec 6 2008, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (sunnyside @ Dec 6 2008, 02:48 PM) *
I'd say there are already immortal elves. No need to open up a can of Ann Rice or the emo writer of your choice.


Too bad that SR vamps and nosfies are not emo at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

QUOTE
However vamps and ghouls are, I think, horror related.


They might, they might not. My own favorite pet theory on the origin of HMHVV (and IMO the virus is obviously from the Fourth World) is that some powerful, ruthless, and knowledgeable 4th World magical faction (maybe the Therans, maybe the Denairastas, maybe some Horror cult) did attempt to reverse-engineer the genemagical framework of the immortal elves, and/or develop an Awakened viral vector that would bestow immortality, various Critter/Changeling powers, and magical aptutide, and was only partially successful. IMO the virus seems too much like someone's attempt to make a "magically augmented immortal Changeling supersoldier" and proably the virus was initially developed to work for humans.

Anyway, there is nothing in SR rules that prohibits some vampire/nosferatu to have survived all the way since the Fourth World. If they did, however, they ought to be fairly well known to IE and Great Dragons, to be Awakened, and be in the same power level as the other immortals.

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MaxMahem
post Dec 6 2008, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Hagga @ Dec 6 2008, 09:36 AM) *
Could, say, a Nosferatu (I know, I know, in ED they didn't exist, but let's pretend they do through the magic of handwaving), Banshee or vanilla Vampire surive from the previous age of magic, or a mana spike? As in, would their essence drain power still function?


If it fits the need of your plot, the sure! Why not? Why should those dam elves get all the fun?
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Wanderer
post Dec 6 2008, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 6 2008, 02:43 PM) *
It's probably possible (given said handwaving), but I would imagine that some kind of ritual would be needed. Magic did work during the downtime, but the Mana level was so low that what mages can do with a mere thought in 2070 would take hours or maybe even days of ritualistic accompaniment in 1870.


Well, as reliable as SR setting novels may be as canon sources, they indicate that a nosferatu could be alive and active during the downtime, even if spell magic was indeed fairly hard to do (magicians did require to accumulate personal mana reserves for days and weeks in order to cast a typical SR spell). I guess this indicates that Essence Drain is a power that does require low mana levels to work.
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2008, 04:07 PM
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The Mana level was too low to sustain most (if not all) awakened creatures and Essence-related abilities. I merely hypothesized the need for some kind of ritual by extrapolating what we know about how Magic did actually function in the Fifth World. Besides, I think it is kind of cool to require the vamp to develop a feeding ritual.
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Neraph
post Dec 6 2008, 04:53 PM
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Have a Dracula-like chamber where one was staked during a manaspike, and if you remove the stake he'd start regenning.
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Wanderer
post Dec 6 2008, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 6 2008, 05:07 PM) *
The Mana level was too low to sustain most (if not all) awakened creatures and Essence-related abilities. I merely hypothesized the need for some kind of ritual by extrapolating what we know about how Magic did actually function in the Fifth World. Besides, I think it is kind of cool to require the vamp to develop a feeding ritual.


Hmm, I'm not too convinced that a feeding ritual would be all that practical, given the nature of the act (sure you could have unwilling victims to be strapped into a ritualistic sacrifice, and willing ones to be seduced into the vampiric equivalent of tantric sex, and there is the ever-silliest wendigo cannibalistic feast, but I doubt both would be ever sufficient to ensure a sufficient and steady amount of Essence). Therefore, if the downtime mana level is insufficient to keep the Infected viable, I would expect them to go dormant into hibernation, just like Dragons. You can have a number of ancient Infected to have awakened from millennia hibernation.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 6 2008, 11:01 PM
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at least in the fluff of a novel, there was at least one such vampire . . Nosferatu 2055 . .
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2008, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Wanderer @ Dec 7 2008, 09:58 AM) *
... but I doubt both would be ever sufficient to ensure a sufficient and steady amount of Essence).


Keep in mind that we are talking about a Nosferatu. As such, the Essence requirement is not nearly as high as that of a generic vampire.
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MaxMahem
post Dec 6 2008, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 6 2008, 12:53 PM) *
Have a Dracula-like chamber where one was staked during a manaspike, and if you remove the stake he'd start regenning.


Heh, a run where you have to stop Dracula's regeneration could be cool.

Hmm... I know nothing about Earth-Dawn, but would it be possible for Dracula to actually be a horror or one of there spawns or something? Something Really Bad™ that the runners had to stop from coming alive in the world?
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Hagga
post Dec 7 2008, 01:06 AM
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Less "my plot" and more "Idle curiosity". And as far as I know, vampires as they are didn't exist in the fourth world, thus the magic of handwaving.
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hyzmarca
post Dec 7 2008, 02:13 AM
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QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Dec 6 2008, 06:29 PM) *
Heh, a run where you have to stop Dracula's regeneration could be cool.


And the GM says : "This time, I want one of you to make a whip adept. It will come in handy during this campaign, I promise. "
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Wanderer
post Dec 7 2008, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (Hagga @ Dec 7 2008, 02:06 AM) *
Less "my plot" and more "Idle curiosity". And as far as I know, vampires as they are didn't exist in the fourth world, thus the magic of handwaving.


No explicit mention of them is made in ED that I'm of, albeit there are hints that a vampire-like female elf appeared in the Blood Wood during the Scourge, which would tie the origins of vampirism to the Horrors, Blood Wood magic, or both. However, I still cling to my own pet theory that HMHVV (at least the vampire and the nosferatu strains) arose as some talented and unscrupolous magicogenetist researcher's attempt to create a transmissable carrier that would reliably bestow immortality, a package of useful Cirtter powers, and Awakened Magical aptitude to the recipient.

Good candidates are either the Therans, the Denairastas Clan, a Horror Cult (Nemesis, Chantrel's Horror, and whatisname the Horror that plagued Aina all would fit as MO), or the elves of the Blood Woood. We already know that some rather impressive magical discoveries (e.g. the rituals that create cyberzombies) occurred in the timeline between the ED setting (soon after the Scourge) and the end of the Fourth World, so the creation of HMHVV-I occurred in the same time frame, possibly by the same or similar groups that created the cybermantic rituals (both inventions harken to the same motives: partially successful attempts at immortality and empowerment).

The vampire and the nosferatu strains were different attempts at the same discovery (say the vampire occurred first, as the nosferatu is a second, more successful attempt, or the nosferatu was invented first for humans, and the vampire is an attempt to duplicate the discovery for other mutahuman races, most likely either elves or orks), while HMHVV-II and HMHVV-III are in all evidence unwanted random later mutations as they serve no useful purpose, by the same genetic drift that created the Changelings.

The Allergies and other drawbacks are in all evidence imperfections of the invention, while the Essence and Dietary requirements are either that or necessary flaws which the inventor accepted to power the transformation. Moreover, the fact that in the Sixth World there are groups (such as the Ordo Maximus) that are attempting the improve HMHVV-I by magicogenetical research is strongly suggestive that this is how the virus was created in the first place.
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AngelisStorm
post Dec 7 2008, 01:26 PM
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Of course. Whip adepts get bonuses to solving puzzles and shooting people who have swords. *grin*
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Heath Robinson
post Dec 7 2008, 02:32 PM
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Different whip adept.
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Neraph
post Dec 7 2008, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Hagga @ Dec 6 2008, 07:06 PM) *
Less "my plot" and more "Idle curiosity". And as far as I know, vampires as they are didn't exist in the fourth world, thus the magic of handwaving.

I think it should be noted (IIRC) that people suppose that ED was the 4th world. It could have been the 2nd world for all we know.
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Snow_Fox
post Dec 7 2008, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Dec 7 2008, 09:32 AM) *

You couldn't find "Lash Larue" ?

(I think I spelled that right.)

It raises an interesting possiblity, vampires are in theory immortal but unlike Harlequin or Leonardy they would not be active during the down time. You'd need a house rule of them being frozen, otherwise the essence loss problem would mean they would be dead in a year at the most.

That having been said, sure a long term planning vampire with a dragon's patience and scheming, maybe with a cult of followers that has been follwoing him for generatinos-oh yeah, I can work with that.
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Wanderer
post Dec 7 2008, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 7 2008, 06:24 PM) *
I think it should be noted (IIRC) that people suppose that ED was the 4th world. It could have been the 2nd world for all we know.


During the 6th World, there are some individuals that remember the 4th World and physical evidence of a previous age of magic. In ED, there are some people that remember a previous Age of magic, and physical evidence of it (the Age of Dragons, they call it). The simplest, most natural assumption is that the Age of Dragons was the 2nd World, ED the 4th World, and SR the 6th World.
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Hagga
post Dec 7 2008, 08:53 PM
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I suppose if said banshee/vampire/nosferatu was big and ugly enough in terms of initiation, it could work. Didn't Aina manage to heal someone during a tiny trickle of mana, and give someone a ticking anyeurism without one?
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The Jake
post Dec 7 2008, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Hagga @ Dec 7 2008, 08:53 PM) *
I suppose if said banshee/vampire/nosferatu was big and ugly enough in terms of initiation, it could work. Didn't Aina manage to heal someone during a tiny trickle of mana, and give someone a ticking anyeurism without one?


More than that, in the novel Nosferatu by Carl Sargent and Marc Cascoigne there was a vampire that survived the downtime prior to the Sixth Age. I guess that answers the question.

- J.
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Mickle5125
post Dec 7 2008, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 7 2008, 11:38 AM) *
You couldn't find "Lash Larue" ?

(I think I spelled that right.)

It raises an interesting possiblity, vampires are in theory immortal but unlike Harlequin or Leonardy they would not be active during the down time. You'd need a house rule of them being frozen, otherwise the essence loss problem would mean they would be dead in a year at the most.

That having been said, sure a long term planning vampire with a dragon's patience and scheming, maybe with a cult of followers that has been follwoing him for generatinos-oh yeah, I can work with that.


Should I be keeping an eye out for a new PbP game? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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hyzmarca
post Dec 7 2008, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 7 2008, 12:38 PM) *
You couldn't find "Lash Larue" ?


Did Lash La Rue ever kill Dracula? If so, did he then resurrect Dracula for the sole purpose of killing him again?
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Hagga
post Dec 7 2008, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 7 2008, 09:08 PM) *
More than that, in the novel Nosferatu by Carl Sargent and Marc Cascoigne there was a vampire that survived the downtime prior to the Sixth Age. I guess that answers the question.

- J.

Didn't mention HOW, at all?
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