Underbarrel melee weapons, What would you allow Options

[Tachi]

I's put it on a detachable slide-mount, but make him use a smaller chainsaw. I'd also make it an exotic melee weapon; it's a lot different than wielding a normal chainsaw, the balance alone would qualify it for that. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't allow it on a shotgun, unless the player wants to accept a possibility of the spread hitting the chainsaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) Though not likely, if it sticks out past the muzzle at all, this could happen. The shot doesn't start to spread immediately because the wad will usually hold it together until after it has left the barrel, usually, but the shot can bounce around a bit inside the barrel, throwing off it's exit, if the wad splits in the barrel. The odds of this, I'd guess, are about 1 in a 1000 rounds. I've seen it once in 20 years of shooting, that I noticed at least. Of course, this wouldn't apply if he was using slugs, but the heat from the blast might have adverse effects on the chainsaw itself if it's longer than the muzzle. If he had it running while trying to shoot I give him a penalty from the vibration, too. But hey, that's just me. Still, it'd be a mighty handy way to get through a door.

[Stahlseele]

Shotgun under Shotgun defies the Rule-of-Cool because you can't Pump the first Shotgun
two Shotguns side-by-side under the AR would be OK (from the Rule-of-Cool Side) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

with Dance-of-Cool
Medicineman

attach ower shotgun to the pump of the upper shotgun and it still works ^^

[Mäx]

Underbarrel weapons can't be atached to an other underbarrel weopon according to RAW, but can you put more then one underbarrel weapon in to a gun.

[Stahlseele]

party-pooper <.< . .
but to circumvent this, i could just say that all those underbarrel-weapons use the slots of the first/main weapon, and then use the slots of the underbarrel weapons to get in other weapon mods right? O.o

[ornot]

Re the shotgun sword, fair enough, but it would require an exotic melee proficiency since it's effectively a weird pole-arm now, and the balance is totally off for any regular sword or pole-arm skills to apply. Using a chainsaw in combat requires an exotic proficiency anyway, so I wouldn't make him buy that twice. I somehow doubt he'd have the thing running while shooting, or I'd apply an accuracy penalty. It does make one think of the Lancer, so unless he has something dramatically different in mind, that's what I'd base my view of it's functionality on.

Underbarrel weapons are by necessity smaller than the weapon they are attached to, so does an underbarrel weapon even have an underbarrel slot? I say no.

[Heath Robinson]

It hapens in real life so I don't see why it's all that ridiculous for it to happen in Shadowrun.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Actually a good reference there. Note that while it is possible to do this with a custom made 2070-era rifle/longarm though, ensure you take into account the penalties also described in that article. Attaching a melee weapon to a longarm does not mean that you use the same skill as if weilding it alone. You are basically sticking a pointy end or blade onto a longer shaft. This is how spears evolved from knives and polearms from swords in the first place. Visualise how this weapon combination/upgrade will be used practically - IE: no computer game references or surfboard sword adorned miniatures here. Rely on physical real world observations. Note that in the article linked aboved the problems the troops had with their extended sword bayonets and thus them not actually using them for the original intended purposes.

Gamewise, I would allow it within reasonable limits, but also apply a penalty to attack with the weapon in melee as it won't be as efficient as the non-firearm attached versions. Definately go with the smaller than the main weapon observation mentioned above - its a back up not the primary reason. If you want that go buy a bigger seperate version like a Combat Axe or something. I also might apply shooting modifiers based on the unbalancing effects and bulkiness/gets-in-the-way problems, although if it's also heavy then it would go some way to reducing recoil too. (It is, effectively, an underbarrel weight!) I'd also limit it's damage/range/ammo capacity/battery lifespan to less than the normal version - maybe not all of those but enough to show that it's a smaller version.

Of course, getting the thing made up will require a good weaponsmith/armourer/technician contact to do the work. Or a character with approriate skills and tools and time to do the job themselves. Note that they will also need blueprints or something to work from - IE: an engineering knowledge skill test would be used to generate a plan to construct it from.

Oh yeah, and don't expect said weapon to be concealable. Of course, if its anything like my group of PCs, a visit to Garden World and a roll or two of duct tape generally ends up in a new ad lib weapon that no GM would ever expect in their wildest dreams.

Actually come think of it, what other underbarrel attachments would you allow? I certainly like the idea of a stun baton/taser built into a nightstick or under a police riot shotgun. Images of impaling someone on the end of a barbed bayonet and puming the chamber for point blank obliteration work for zombie movies. Hmmm, maybe a chemtech suirt gun, flamethrower canister, grapple reel and launcher, speargun/crossbow, net gun canister charge, splat round launcher, electric food blender attachments, egg wisks, fluffy dices? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

Shotgun under Shotgun defies the Rule-of-Cool because you can't Pump the first Shotgun
two Shotguns side-by-side under the AR would be OK (from the Rule-of-Cool Side) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

with Dance-of-Cool
Medicineman

That use side by side setup, same thing as underbarreled one minus reduced ammo capacity.
It would have to have two fire modes: sincronous and aincronuos, asincronous firing consistes in having two shots (one for each barrel) one fired pulling the trigger once, the other fired pulling the trigger a second time, allowing a SA pumpaction shotgun, the sincronous firing fires both the shots simultaneosly for a +2 DV and -1 recoil penality (similar tu the ridicolous Walther Palm Pistol from Arsenal p.20-21, but increased punch due higher caliber) and a SS fire rate.
It's not the side-by-side doublebarrel breack-action shottie from Doom 2 though.

In bocca al lupo.

[Mäx]

the sincronous firing fires both the shots simultaneosly for a +2 DV and -1 recoil penality (similar tu the ridicolous Walther Palm Pistol from Arsenal p.20-21, but increased punch due higher caliber)

Actually it's only +1DV (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

Actually it's only +1DV (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

That's what I've said: increased punch due to size.

[Mäx]

That's what I've said: increased punch due to size.

Size doesn't matter, even elephant rifle only gets +1DV if you fire the both barrels and so does the double barreled shotgun.

[AllTheNothing]

Size doesn't matter, even elephant rifle only gets +1DV if you fire the both barrels and so does the double barreled shotgun.

Using rules for burst fire? Indeed.
I suggested +2 DV because it makes more sense to me and I don't see it overpowered (I also think shotguns should inflict greater damage but take a -1 DV +1 AP at medium range, -2 DV +2 AP at long range and -3 DV +3 AP at extreme range due dispersion of the shot, abviously the target gets a penality on the evasion test equal to the damage value penality due wider area covered).

[Stahlseele]

that's for shot. what about slug then?
bigger slug still doing more damage?

[masterofm]

For underbarrel melee weapons I would either allow underbarrel sword chucks or ninja stars.

Although that gives me a character concept. A troll with 15 strength with a one in intuition and logic. He would have a panther cannon with an underbarrel claymore. He would also have a strong addiction to very old fantasy games. Of course the gun would half the time probably put a crater five feet in front of the troll then actually hit his target.

[hyzmarca]

The question should not be is an underbarrel chainsaw is viable. The question should be, if you cut off your hand and replace it with a chainsaw, can you then get an underblade shotgun for it.

[masterofm]

Dear sir. that actually made me lol. I use that term sparingly, but that takes the cake. The extra aditional I would like to add is can the underbarrel doubble barrel shotgun fire three or more shots before reloading?

[Stahlseele]

only if you use a certain kind of chainsaw that has only one open edge . . but why go that route if you can replace your hand with a shotgun and simply to the chainsaw below that one? ^^

[hobgoblin]

i suspect the chainsaw could very well be running of some battery and use plastic or composit materials for weight reduction.

[hyzmarca]

Dear sir. that actually made me lol. I use that term sparingly, but that takes the cake. The extra aditional I would like to add is can the underbarrel doubble barrel shotgun fire three or more shots before reloading?

Of course, S-Mart only stocks the highest quality 15-shot double barrel shotguns. Shop smart, shop S-Mart.

[AllTheNothing]

that's for shot. what about slug then?
bigger slug still doing more damage?

Taking a look again at shotguns, 9 DV with shotshells is fine (with the range penalities descripted above, I would also add that at long and extreme range an additional target can be included provided that no target standes more than one meter away the other); for slugs talking of spread is silly (unless I got it wrong its a single, solid mass) so no range penalities on damage and AP but no multitarget either, as for damage 7 DV is a bit little in my opinion but 8 DV would be too much, so I would say a -3 AP should settle the power issue just fine.
As a sidenote I would rule that shotguns can only fire cased ammunitions.

I've got some problems about playtesting it right now if someone gives it a try I would be thankfull if he she tells me how it worked out; also some who know the firearms better than me (Tachi for example) can give me his/her opinion about the realism?

[AllTheNothing]

Speaking of chainsaws, from my personal experience they are good for their porpouse but highly unwieldy as weapos (never attempted to saw anyone but I think it's hard to use on a moving target affectively), also the movement of the chain tendes to make the barr slide (reason why they have some "tooth" at the end of the barr to mantain the grip on the sawed object) making hard to exectute the cut effectively, the only reason why someone could want to make a such weapon is to emulate Gears of War, which made a somewhat cool (maybe it's because I've used chainsaws in my life but I din't think much of it) but very unrealistic choise about it.

By RAW there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it but I think that there should be penalities to try to handle the darn thing.

[Dumori]

gears of war followed other and better gritty combat games. But chain saws already get -2 dp if used in combat. On a side note he's going with the vibro blade idea I'm yet to full stat any thing out but I was thinking -1 shooting dp if the blade is on. The plan is to have the blade fitted more axe like almost fully under the main body of the gun still I would lilly still use blades for it an a dp penalty but I'm yet to mock up the wayitwould be used.

[MaxMahem]

Speaking of chainsaws, from my personal experience they are good for their porpouse but highly unwieldy as weapos (never attempted to saw anyone but I think it's hard to use on a moving target affectively), also the movement of the chain tendes to make the barr slide (reason why they have some "tooth" at the end of the barr to mantain the grip on the sawed object) making hard to exectute the cut effectively, the only reason why someone could want to make a such weapon is to emulate Gears of War, which made a somewhat cool (maybe it's because I've used chainsaws in my life but I din't think much of it) but very unrealistic choise about it.

While I don't disagree necessarily with what you are saying, it should also be noted that chainsaws in real life are designed to be effective melee weapons. There designed to be effective against trees and what not. Also, while a real life chainsaw might be a cumbersome weapon, its effect upon human flesh would be simply disastrous. The 10P that the 4E chain inflicts sounds about right (I might sub STR/2 + 8 or some such) for a conventional chainsaw, a high-tech one with mono-filament/diamond/whatever teeth should be even worse.

Of course with Shadowruns tech-level you might be able to do much better then a modern chainsaw. The most bulky part of any chainsaw, the engine, could be made electric and reduced in size while being increased in power. It might be possible to reduce or eliminate the vibrations as well, all of which could work together to make it a much more dangerous melee weapon. The motion of the chain would always be an issue to be overcome, but I see no reason why an advanced melee chainsaw sort of weapon could not exist in the SR universe. I will leave its statistics as an excersie for the reader.

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Oh and somebody has already done it today! Check it out.

[PBTHHHHT]

darn, someone beat me in mentioning that someone actually did it. This one is from boing boing gadgets website.

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/01/chain...ayonet-mou.html

[hobgoblin]

hmm, attack squirrels, drop bear army shocktroops?