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Dumori
A player want to attach an underbarrel melee weapon to this assault shotgun. He's thinking a monfilement chainsaw or a vibrosword. would you alow it or not hes taking melee hardening and custom look 2 as well. Hes leaning towards a vibrosword as he wont need a new skill but its close. So what are your thoughts on this as I'm not sure if it could be done or not.
vollmond
Is it functionally really any different from a bigger bayonet?
Dumori
The chainsaw would be as it dose 10P -2 to barriers. But no it like adding a longer/bigger/better bayonet to the gun. Also it would be built in the the weapon not attached when needed.
Froggie
Sounds like that gun from Gears of War...
Mickle5125
Either way, it sounds like the gun's becoming an exotic weapon, which means a new skill to use it. If your character wants it that badly, then give it to him. It's not going to be game-breaking.
Dumori
I wouldnt say an exotic weapon more like two weapon straped to each other. An AR with a shotgun under isnt exotic but you uses longarm for one part and automatics for the other. As for gamebraking it wont happen and upgrade will suite him a lot atm he normaly drops slash put out og the way his shotgun and gets choping if things get too close but with the two in one I can see thing geting fun plus it will spice things up a bit.
Fortune
If he adds the chainsaw, I would still keep its inherent penalty to attack.
Dumori
Was going to.
Stahlseele
hmm . . if i can get a shotgun as an underbarrel mod . . can i get another shotgun as an underbarrel mod for the first shotgun?
vollmond
And attach bayonets to all three!
Stahlseele
probablee ^^
think i broke something there O.o
Beetle
QUOTE (Dumori @ Dec 16 2008, 04:26 PM) *
The chainsaw would be as it dose 10P -2 to barriers. But no it like adding a longer/bigger/better bayonet to the gun. Also it would be built in the the weapon not attached when needed.


If it's going to be permanently attached a vibrosword or a chainsaw is going to be a god awful thing to wield. I mean really, go to your local S-mart, look at a shotgun and imagine a 3' blade extending from that. Let's not even mention the tactical problem of maneuvering that thing through hallways. If your player if using it to get past barriers ie chainsaw, shock lock rounds for his combat shotgun would seem a hell of a lot more effective.
QUOTE
Arsenal page 35
Shock Lock Rounds: These slugs are made of a ceramic and metal composite designed to fragment and disintegrate upon impact. Shock lock rounds are designed to shatter a door’s lock or hinge and halve the Barrier ratings of doors or similar barriers when used to destroy them (see Destroying Barriers, p. 157, SR4). Against other targets, treat shock lock rounds as standard explosive rounds.


Not to mention cost effective. at 70 nuyen.gif per 10 rounds.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 16 2008, 06:03 PM) *
hmm . . if i can get a shotgun as an underbarrel mod . . can i get another shotgun as an underbarrel mod for the first shotgun?


Why not? I would think that the under slung shotgun mod is universal. If an assault rifle can get it then an assault shotgun can get one. I can most certainly see the benefits of that as you can load up the main weapon with slug ammo and the under slung one with flechette ammo.
Stahlseele
no no no!
Assault Rifle with Underbarrel Shotgun, and the Underbarrel Shotgun with ANOTHER Underbarrel Shotgun and so on ad infinitum ^^
MaxMahem
Go by the rule of cool.

Is a underbarrell mounted power-weapon on an assault weapon cool to you? If yes, then you should absolutely allow it. Your only concern might be for game balance. Though I don't imagine it could really be that game-breaking. I would have it use a custom skill, but other then that, sure go nuts with it.

In terms of stats I would tend towards something like STR/2+2 or so. Its doubtful that he wants a full fledged chainsaw on the end of his gun, which we be kind of cumbersome (unless he is a troll). But more of a mini-chainsaw thing ala the lancer from Gears of War.

You know next time I get to play a PC I may just pattition for a underbarrel chainsaw of some sort. The idea isn't entirely crazy, provided you are of above average strength to wield such a cumbersome device. The ability to use your primary weapon as an all purpose barrier destruction/melee weapon of doom device. Just mostly crazy nyahnyah.gif. Which means for some campaigns it would be a perfect fit!
Nkari
Whats the point of having a chainsaw/2handed sword as an underbarrel weapon other than looks,.. it certainly cant be for the function since carrying the wrapon in a sling over your shoudler or on your back is much much better..
Socinus
I would say yes, but with penalties.

A gun with a roaring chainsaw strapped to it? Thats gonna be hard to aim (Granted its a shotgun but still) and even harder to hold (Its gonna be frickin' heavy).

Also its a rather awkward weapon thats only really good for attacking front-on and you cant really swing it around due to the weight.

If he REALLY wants to I'd say let him go for it but apply a penalty for the aforementioned reasons.

As for sword, I would let him but point out that a sword there but point out that it'd be pretty in-effective as in the end its basically a fancy spear and all the benefits of having a sword, even a vibrosword, on the end of a shotgun eliminates almost all of those advantages. Again, I'd let 'em but apply penalties because of the awkward nature of the weapon.

A vibroblade KNIFE might work and I'd definitely allow that as a GM
NetWraith
QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 16 2008, 08:18 PM) *
As for sword, I would let him but point out that a sword there but point out that it'd be pretty in-effective as in the end its basically a fancy spear and all the benefits of having a sword, even a vibrosword, on the end of a shotgun eliminates almost all of those advantages. Again, I'd let 'em but apply penalties because of the awkward nature of the weapon.


STAB!!! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! (rinse and repeat as needed)
TheOOB
Well, chainsaws are horrible as weapons in the first place, you would have to be quite good before you are more dangerous to your opponent then yourself, I would also say that the movement of either weapon would cause problems with aiming your gun, not to mention the constant vibration would make maintenance a pain in the rear.

Then again I would start finding creative penalties for any under barrel weapon bigger then a knife. Personally I use an underbarrel shock baton, electric damage is nasty and it's small and light enough not to encumber the weapon.
Socinus
QUOTE (NetWraith @ Dec 17 2008, 07:27 AM) *
STAB!!! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! (rinse and repeat as needed)

Yeah that SOUNDS nice in theory but in practice slapping a sword on the bottom of a shotgun is NOT a good idea. I would apply penalties and make a roll every now and then to see if t would break
TheOOB
QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 17 2008, 01:36 AM) *
Yeah that SOUNDS nice in theory but in practice slapping a sword on the bottom of a shotgun is NOT a good idea. I would apply penalties and make a roll every now and then to see if t would break


besides, it would really suck when some of your buckshot hit the sword blade.
AngelisStorm
Go for it, it sounds awsome. Take the chainsaw. If he's going the other direction, I would normally aim for a vibro knife, but since it's under a assualt cannon... (probably either a pentalty to hit or an exotic melee prof though. It's not a sword anymore it's a very strangely shaped polearm).

And shotguns under shotguns are ftw.
Socinus
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Dec 17 2008, 07:45 AM) *
besides, it would really suck when some of your buckshot hit the sword blade.

Shotgun pellets do not instantly begin to spread out once they leave the barrel. Shot hitting the blade wouldn't be a problem
Chrysalis
Can I have a weed whacker as an underbarrel attachment to a shotgun?

Seriously, I would rule that you can tape anything on the barrel. You may even have a pastrami and rye sandwich underbarrel mount with judicious use of duct tape.

The argument I would have is does it look silly? Does everyone laugh at you? Do you loose fingers working the slide? Do people want to kill you just to get their hands on your noveau art boomstick?

If you answer yes to these questions you should change over from shadowrunner to fashion designer.

-Chrysalis
Medicineman
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 16 2008, 07:08 PM) *
no no no!
Assault Rifle with Underbarrel Shotgun, and the Underbarrel Shotgun with ANOTHER Underbarrel Shotgun and so on ad infinitum ^^

Shotgun under Shotgun defies the Rule-of-Cool because you can't Pump the first Shotgun
two Shotguns side-by-side under the AR would be OK (from the Rule-of-Cool Side) grinbig.gif

with Dance-of-Cool
Medicineman
Tachi
I's put it on a detachable slide-mount, but make him use a smaller chainsaw. I'd also make it an exotic melee weapon; it's a lot different than wielding a normal chainsaw, the balance alone would qualify it for that. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't allow it on a shotgun, unless the player wants to accept a possibility of the spread hitting the chainsaw. vegm.gif Though not likely, if it sticks out past the muzzle at all, this could happen. The shot doesn't start to spread immediately because the wad will usually hold it together until after it has left the barrel, usually, but the shot can bounce around a bit inside the barrel, throwing off it's exit, if the wad splits in the barrel. The odds of this, I'd guess, are about 1 in a 1000 rounds. I've seen it once in 20 years of shooting, that I noticed at least. Of course, this wouldn't apply if he was using slugs, but the heat from the blast might have adverse effects on the chainsaw itself if it's longer than the muzzle. If he had it running while trying to shoot I give him a penalty from the vibration, too. But hey, that's just me. Still, it'd be a mighty handy way to get through a door.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Dec 17 2008, 10:47 AM) *
Shotgun under Shotgun defies the Rule-of-Cool because you can't Pump the first Shotgun
two Shotguns side-by-side under the AR would be OK (from the Rule-of-Cool Side) grinbig.gif

with Dance-of-Cool
Medicineman

attach ower shotgun to the pump of the upper shotgun and it still works ^^
Mx
Underbarrel weapons can't be atached to an other underbarrel weopon according to RAW, but can you put more then one underbarrel weapon in to a gun.
Stahlseele
party-pooper <.< . .
but to circumvent this, i could just say that all those underbarrel-weapons use the slots of the first/main weapon, and then use the slots of the underbarrel weapons to get in other weapon mods right? O.o
ornot
Re the shotgun sword, fair enough, but it would require an exotic melee proficiency since it's effectively a weird pole-arm now, and the balance is totally off for any regular sword or pole-arm skills to apply. Using a chainsaw in combat requires an exotic proficiency anyway, so I wouldn't make him buy that twice. I somehow doubt he'd have the thing running while shooting, or I'd apply an accuracy penalty. It does make one think of the Lancer, so unless he has something dramatically different in mind, that's what I'd base my view of it's functionality on.

Underbarrel weapons are by necessity smaller than the weapon they are attached to, so does an underbarrel weapon even have an underbarrel slot? I say no.
Heath Robinson
It hapens in real life so I don't see why it's all that ridiculous for it to happen in Shadowrun.
BIG BAD BEESTE
Actually a good reference there. Note that while it is possible to do this with a custom made 2070-era rifle/longarm though, ensure you take into account the penalties also described in that article. Attaching a melee weapon to a longarm does not mean that you use the same skill as if weilding it alone. You are basically sticking a pointy end or blade onto a longer shaft. This is how spears evolved from knives and polearms from swords in the first place. Visualise how this weapon combination/upgrade will be used practically - IE: no computer game references or surfboard sword adorned miniatures here. Rely on physical real world observations. Note that in the article linked aboved the problems the troops had with their extended sword bayonets and thus them not actually using them for the original intended purposes.

Gamewise, I would allow it within reasonable limits, but also apply a penalty to attack with the weapon in melee as it won't be as efficient as the non-firearm attached versions. Definately go with the smaller than the main weapon observation mentioned above - its a back up not the primary reason. If you want that go buy a bigger seperate version like a Combat Axe or something. I also might apply shooting modifiers based on the unbalancing effects and bulkiness/gets-in-the-way problems, although if it's also heavy then it would go some way to reducing recoil too. (It is, effectively, an underbarrel weight!) I'd also limit it's damage/range/ammo capacity/battery lifespan to less than the normal version - maybe not all of those but enough to show that it's a smaller version.

Of course, getting the thing made up will require a good weaponsmith/armourer/technician contact to do the work. Or a character with approriate skills and tools and time to do the job themselves. Note that they will also need blueprints or something to work from - IE: an engineering knowledge skill test would be used to generate a plan to construct it from.

Oh yeah, and don't expect said weapon to be concealable. Of course, if its anything like my group of PCs, a visit to Garden World and a roll or two of duct tape generally ends up in a new ad lib weapon that no GM would ever expect in their wildest dreams.

Actually come think of it, what other underbarrel attachments would you allow? I certainly like the idea of a stun baton/taser built into a nightstick or under a police riot shotgun. Images of impaling someone on the end of a barbed bayonet and puming the chamber for point blank obliteration work for zombie movies. Hmmm, maybe a chemtech suirt gun, flamethrower canister, grapple reel and launcher, speargun/crossbow, net gun canister charge, splat round launcher, electric food blender attachments, egg wisks, fluffy dices? biggrin.gif
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Dec 17 2008, 10:47 AM) *
Shotgun under Shotgun defies the Rule-of-Cool because you can't Pump the first Shotgun
two Shotguns side-by-side under the AR would be OK (from the Rule-of-Cool Side) grinbig.gif

with Dance-of-Cool
Medicineman



That use side by side setup, same thing as underbarreled one minus reduced ammo capacity.
It would have to have two fire modes: sincronous and aincronuos, asincronous firing consistes in having two shots (one for each barrel) one fired pulling the trigger once, the other fired pulling the trigger a second time, allowing a SA pumpaction shotgun, the sincronous firing fires both the shots simultaneosly for a +2 DV and -1 recoil penality (similar tu the ridicolous Walther Palm Pistol from Arsenal p.20-21, but increased punch due higher caliber) and a SS fire rate.
It's not the side-by-side doublebarrel breack-action shottie from Doom 2 though.

In bocca al lupo.
Mx
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Dec 17 2008, 04:57 PM) *
the sincronous firing fires both the shots simultaneosly for a +2 DV and -1 recoil penality (similar tu the ridicolous Walther Palm Pistol from Arsenal p.20-21, but increased punch due higher caliber)

Actually it's only +1DV cyber.gif
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 17 2008, 04:06 PM) *
Actually it's only +1DV cyber.gif



That's what I've said: increased punch due to size.
Mx
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Dec 17 2008, 06:21 PM) *
That's what I've said: increased punch due to size.

Size doesn't matter, even elephant rifle only gets +1DV if you fire the both barrels and so does the double barreled shotgun.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 17 2008, 06:20 PM) *
Size doesn't matter, even elephant rifle only gets +1DV if you fire the both barrels and so does the double barreled shotgun.



Using rules for burst fire? Indeed.
I suggested +2 DV because it makes more sense to me and I don't see it overpowered (I also think shotguns should inflict greater damage but take a -1 DV +1 AP at medium range, -2 DV +2 AP at long range and -3 DV +3 AP at extreme range due dispersion of the shot, abviously the target gets a penality on the evasion test equal to the damage value penality due wider area covered).
Stahlseele
that's for shot. what about slug then?
bigger slug still doing more damage?
masterofm
For underbarrel melee weapons I would either allow underbarrel sword chucks or ninja stars.

Although that gives me a character concept. A troll with 15 strength with a one in intuition and logic. He would have a panther cannon with an underbarrel claymore. He would also have a strong addiction to very old fantasy games. Of course the gun would half the time probably put a crater five feet in front of the troll then actually hit his target.
hyzmarca
The question should not be is an underbarrel chainsaw is viable. The question should be, if you cut off your hand and replace it with a chainsaw, can you then get an underblade shotgun for it.
masterofm
Dear sir. that actually made me lol. I use that term sparingly, but that takes the cake. The extra aditional I would like to add is can the underbarrel doubble barrel shotgun fire three or more shots before reloading?
Stahlseele
only if you use a certain kind of chainsaw that has only one open edge . . but why go that route if you can replace your hand with a shotgun and simply to the chainsaw below that one? ^^
hobgoblin
i suspect the chainsaw could very well be running of some battery and use plastic or composit materials for weight reduction.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (masterofm @ Dec 17 2008, 03:33 PM) *
Dear sir. that actually made me lol. I use that term sparingly, but that takes the cake. The extra aditional I would like to add is can the underbarrel doubble barrel shotgun fire three or more shots before reloading?


Of course, S-Mart only stocks the highest quality 15-shot double barrel shotguns. Shop smart, shop S-Mart.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 17 2008, 09:04 PM) *
that's for shot. what about slug then?
bigger slug still doing more damage?



Taking a look again at shotguns, 9 DV with shotshells is fine (with the range penalities descripted above, I would also add that at long and extreme range an additional target can be included provided that no target standes more than one meter away the other); for slugs talking of spread is silly (unless I got it wrong its a single, solid mass) so no range penalities on damage and AP but no multitarget either, as for damage 7 DV is a bit little in my opinion but 8 DV would be too much, so I would say a -3 AP should settle the power issue just fine.
As a sidenote I would rule that shotguns can only fire cased ammunitions.

I've got some problems about playtesting it right now if someone gives it a try I would be thankfull if he she tells me how it worked out; also some who know the firearms better than me (Tachi for example) can give me his/her opinion about the realism?
AllTheNothing
Speaking of chainsaws, from my personal experience they are good for their porpouse but highly unwieldy as weapos (never attempted to saw anyone but I think it's hard to use on a moving target affectively), also the movement of the chain tendes to make the barr slide (reason why they have some "tooth" at the end of the barr to mantain the grip on the sawed object) making hard to exectute the cut effectively, the only reason why someone could want to make a such weapon is to emulate Gears of War, which made a somewhat cool (maybe it's because I've used chainsaws in my life but I din't think much of it) but very unrealistic choise about it.

By RAW there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it but I think that there should be penalities to try to handle the darn thing.
Dumori
gears of war followed other and better gritty combat games. But chain saws already get -2 dp if used in combat. On a side note he's going with the vibro blade idea I'm yet to full stat any thing out but I was thinking -1 shooting dp if the blade is on. The plan is to have the blade fitted more axe like almost fully under the main body of the gun still I would lilly still use blades for it an a dp penalty but I'm yet to mock up the wayitwould be used.
MaxMahem
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Dec 18 2008, 05:26 PM) *
Speaking of chainsaws, from my personal experience they are good for their porpouse but highly unwieldy as weapos (never attempted to saw anyone but I think it's hard to use on a moving target affectively), also the movement of the chain tendes to make the barr slide (reason why they have some "tooth" at the end of the barr to mantain the grip on the sawed object) making hard to exectute the cut effectively, the only reason why someone could want to make a such weapon is to emulate Gears of War, which made a somewhat cool (maybe it's because I've used chainsaws in my life but I din't think much of it) but very unrealistic choise about it.

While I don't disagree necessarily with what you are saying, it should also be noted that chainsaws in real life are designed to be effective melee weapons. There designed to be effective against trees and what not. Also, while a real life chainsaw might be a cumbersome weapon, its effect upon human flesh would be simply disastrous. The 10P that the 4E chain inflicts sounds about right (I might sub STR/2 + 8 or some such) for a conventional chainsaw, a high-tech one with mono-filament/diamond/whatever teeth should be even worse.

Of course with Shadowruns tech-level you might be able to do much better then a modern chainsaw. The most bulky part of any chainsaw, the engine, could be made electric and reduced in size while being increased in power. It might be possible to reduce or eliminate the vibrations as well, all of which could work together to make it a much more dangerous melee weapon. The motion of the chain would always be an issue to be overcome, but I see no reason why an advanced melee chainsaw sort of weapon could not exist in the SR universe. I will leave its statistics as an excersie for the reader.

---

Oh and somebody has already done it today! Check it out.
PBTHHHHT
darn, someone beat me in mentioning that someone actually did it. This one is from boing boing gadgets website.

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/01/chain...ayonet-mou.html
hobgoblin
hmm, attack squirrels, drop bear army shocktroops?
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