Adept power costs, I know I'm not the only one who thinks they're insane. Options

[Tyro]

By the RAW, nobody in his right mind would ever pick up Improved Reflexes when you can get Synaptic Boosters for .5 Essence/grade and Improved Reflexes costs 1/3/FIVE. On a related note, why get Improved Physical Attribute for 1 PP/rating (or twice that to go above natural max!) for anything but MAYBE Body when you could get Muscle Augmentation/Toner for .4 (.32 if Cultivated, .1 if you have Type O) per rating? If all you want Body for is damage resistance, get Bone Density!

I know I'm not the only one annoyed by this. What have you houseruled your costs to?

[Fortune]

I haven't!

Not every choice has to be equal. Sometimes magic does something better, and sometimes it is tech that takes the spotlight.

[Whipstitch]

Agreed. Also keep in mind that your Magic attribute is used for more than just determining your Power Points, it's also used for determining the maximum rating of your powers, the number of foci you can carry and it contributes to pools in Magic tests such as creating/pressing through wards and determining the maximum range on a Distance Strike. If you have two options that do the same thing for roughly the same BPs except for one hits your Magic attribue and the other doesn't, then the one that doesn't maul your Magic rating is clearly superior. Of course, you can still make the argument that the cost ratio doesn't have to be skewed as much in favor of 'ware as it currently is, but frankly, I'm not sure where to redraw the line, so I don't.

[AngelisStorm]

Synaptic Boosters also requires a fairly hideous amount of money.

I houseruled that Improved Physical Attribute costs 1 power point per level, none of this silly "doubling" nonsense. But that's all. Improved Reflexes is fine. Extra IP = win. If you don't want to pay the points, take drugs. I agree with Fortune and Whip.

[pbangarth]

I don't houserule any of the costs either.

The earlier arguments about Magic level being multi-valent are important, even for adepts. Adepts are slow growers, and in the beginning, heavy investment in tech makes a bigger bang. Later, things more than balance out. So it depends on how you want to play the character.

And besides, having no implants and therefore "suffering" in effectiveness is the best argument for convincing your GM that Sensitive System is not a cheesy Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Peter

[Tyro]

You all have valid points, but I still think FIVE POINTS is excessive (for Reflexes III). 1/2/3 makes more sense to me, or maybe 1/2.5/4 at the worst. Initiation is NOT cheap! And some of us can't take drugs (like anyone with regeneration).

[Whipstitch]

The fact that you can't easily make Nosferatu ungodly super fast regenerators isn't likely to sway me any time soon. In fact, I kind of consider it a bonus.

[Tyro]

The fact that you can't easily make Nosferatu ungodly super fast regenerators isn't likely to sway me any time soon. In fact, I kind of consider it a bonus.

Vampires work better for that due to their Agility bonus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fortune]

I lied! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I do actually house rule something relevant to this discussion ... the Essence and monetary costs of Wired Reflexes. I have changed them to ...

Level 1: 1.0 Essence - 11,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Level 2: 2.0 Essence - 22,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Level 3: 3.0 Essence - 33,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Shhh though, I stole the figures from FrankTrollman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Hagga]

Adepts have more variety, too.

I don't know why that mystic adepts are not listed as the most versatile (limited astral projection, gaki ghouls), but an adept can do things that would cost a magician a hefty amount of drain (if they could do it at all) that no Samurai, bio or cyber, can emulate.

[Falconer]

The cost is fine at 2/3/5 as per the book. Slightly expensive in terms of BP... but for a char who doesn't want to lose the essence well worth it. Another thing to consider is you generally don't need rating 3. Many fights are over by the 3rd pass, and the few which aren't spending an edge for a 4th IP is often times a good bargain.

Some GM's will also allow things like drugs to stack their extra IP on top of your others. Which I'm neutral on (not really broken IMO, though not strictly RAW either).

[AngelisStorm]

If I made it myself I would go with 2/3/4, but I like symmetry. It's fine being expensive. For every pass you are getting twice as many actions as a "normal" person. It should be expensive, it's the single most powerful combat advantage you can get.

And not being able to use drugs because your other super powers are getting in the way? To bad there isn't a crying smiley available.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think a lot of the adept powers should be looked at again for there costs. Part of the problem IMO is that they made bioware too good of an option. yes, yes it the "new tech" blah blah. But level 1 synaptic is .5 essence vs 2 essence for wired, yeah 4 times cheaper is a bit much. Maybe the bioware version should be 1 a level instead of .5 a level. If they think it should be .5 a level the cyber version and magic should be 1 a level. Bioware on the 2x as essence friendly level is still potent as heck, and worth the nuyen.

For phys add costs though wall running, and the similar style 1 point each powers should be cheaper.

penetrating strike costs .25 magic the same as critical strike, and it caps at 3 while critical strike has no cap. I'm not a statistics expert, but -1 armor is about 1/3 as good as +1DV. Mayne critical strike should cost more, or they should get off this minimum .25 cost stuff, or make each level of penetrating strike remove 2 armor.

smashing blow, um one point so you can kick down doors better. Um its cool, but rarely worth the point you spent on it. Like wall running I think they have a cool tax or something, charge based on balance that would be silly, we charg eon how cool it is.

improved attribute ones, way over priced especially with the extremely lame hold over of costing x2 as much when over your racial unaugmented max.

Berserk, overpriced.

If sticking with a minimum cost of .25 a level, the base improvement for things like iron gut should be more than 1 die. spending a full point in magic so you have +4 dice vs ingested toxins,is just lame.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I haven't!

Not every choice has to be equal. Sometimes magic does something better, and sometimes it is tech that takes the spotlight.

Maybe not perfectly equal, especially when there are a lot of factors like, money vs karma, set essence vs potentially unlimited magic attribute. But one choice should not be borderline retarded to take in comparison. And that is what you have with the disgustingly essence friendly bioware vs magic for initiative boosters.

[Glyph]

I disagree that initiative boosters are set to that point. The big thing to remember about the synaptic booster is that it costs a lot of money. This translates to 16 build points in resources per level, so even saving 10-20 points, you don't come out ahead. Generally, synaptic booster is best used for builds where you simply need more Magic points, such as a gunslinger/face or martial arts expert. In other words, when you need an attribute boost and a lot of other powers. And such options still wind up more hyper-specialized than other adept builds. Improved reflexes is set at a price where it remains a viable choice, even if not the most optimal one.

Improved Attribute, on the other hand, goes too far. While I agree with Fortune that not every choice should be equal, I think it's going too far when no one (at least, that I'm aware of) takes a certain option. You could halve the costs, and bioware would still usually be a better option, but at least then, some people would actually consider taking it. Currently, I would not consider taking that ability for any build. For most builds, I would take muscle toner and/or muscle augmentation, while for "pure" adepts I would take one point of Attribute Boost/Agility.

[Fortune]

I agree with you about Improved Attribute. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

I think an argument based on cost effectiveness could be made for use of Improved Attribute as long as the character is bent on not losing Essence, along the lines of the discussion earlier.

With that proviso, if you did not want to pay the 25 BP at chargen for the last point in an Attribute, but really wanted it, one could get it for 10 BP worth through the adept power.

I know. You have to want to keep Essence, and you really want to max out that Attribute right at chargen. But there must be some who work with those requirements.

Peter

[Red_Cap]

The one Adept I've ever actually played, I took Improved Attribute/Agility, but only because, as was previously noted, I wanted to max it out and was averse to losing even the smallest percentage of essence.

[Clyde]

I'm going to houserule Improved Physical Attribute to .5 per level for the first two levels, then 1 per level thereafter. That goes a long way toward equalling the effectiveness of bioware, but keeps the ability from totally taking over for Improved Ability. Speaking of, I'd remove the 1/2 skill cap from Improved Ability as well.

Finally, I think Improved Reflexes is okay as is - but that only becuase Improved Reaction would only cost .5 for the first two levels in my game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Otherwise it would need to be reduced.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I disagree that initiative boosters are set to that point. The big thing to remember about the synaptic booster is that it costs a lot of money. This translates to 16 build points in resources per level, so even saving 10-20 points, you don't come out ahead. Generally, synaptic booster is best used for builds where you simply need more Magic points, such as a gunslinger/face or martial arts expert. In other words, when you need an attribute boost and a lot of other powers. And such options still wind up more hyper-specialized than other adept builds. Improved reflexes is set at a price where it remains a viable choice, even if not the most optimal one.

Lets see 16 build points per level or 32 for level 2 the highest you can start with. You need 30 build points with magic.(well 25 if that is all you had) So lets say you have level 2 of the physadd increased reflexes and oh 2 points of magic in other crap. That would cost 45 build points to make. 32 points in bioware, +5 for being a physadd +2 more magic =57. I lost a whopping 15 build points, much of which is made up the first time I raise my magic.

I don't think magic should do things better in all cases, but for a magic type, magic should be the better option, and its not by a long shot outside of one shot adventures.

[Tyro]

I'm going to houserule Improved Physical Attribute to .5 per level for the first two levels, then 1 per level thereafter. That goes a long way toward equalling the effectiveness of bioware, but keeps the ability from totally taking over for Improved Ability. Speaking of, I'd remove the 1/2 skill cap from Improved Ability as well.

Finally, I think Improved Reflexes is okay as is - but that only becuase Improved Reaction would only cost .5 for the first two levels in my game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Otherwise it would need to be reduced.

The Reaction bonus from Improved Reflexes is nice, but it's the extra IP's which really make the ability.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The Reaction bonus from Improved Reflexes is nice, but it's the extra IP's which really make the ability.

Overall yeah the IP are king. But if you milk it with combat sense a high reaction is awesome. I realize this is a campaign dependent thing, so for games where everyone is tossing over 9,000 dice every shot this isn't cool, but 5 levels of combat sense and a maxed reaction means 14 dice in dodging without the dodge skill. My Troll Boxer character(deceased) used it, and against most opposition I did not get hit. They had to wide spray things or focus fire lots of attacks to whittle my dodging down. It was my first SR4 character and other than having to deal with how crappy hand to hand combat is, he was a cool character. Give me a patch on hand to hand combat rules before a patch on adept costs please.

[Glyph]

Lets see 16 build points per level or 32 for level 2 the highest you can start with. You need 30 build points with magic.(well 25 if that is all you had) So lets say you have level 2 of the physadd increased reflexes and oh 2 points of magic in other crap. That would cost 45 build points to make. 32 points in bioware, +5 for being a physadd +2 more magic =57. I lost a whopping 15 build points, much of which is made up the first time I raise my magic.

Actually, it's only 12 points cheaper, although I wouldn't use synaptic boosters and then only add 2 points to my base Magic - I usually start out with a 5 or 6, so I am paying the 45-60 points then bioware. Doing it your way, why bother - you are losing 12 BP without getting the real advantage - being able to pack more powers into your adept.

I don't think magic should do things better in all cases, but for a magic type, magic should be the better option, and its not by a long shot outside of one shot adventures.

It depends on how you see Magic. I personally like the notion that getting some cybereyes can tempt a mage, and getting some biomods can tempt an adept. I like the idea of technology getting entwined in everything, to the point that a "pure" mage or adept is at a disadvantage against someone with some high tech mixed in with their magic. Shadowrun is a game where doing the "right" thing is difficult, and that should extend to magical advancement.

If you think Magic and 'ware should be less compatible, there are all kinds of ways to house rule it, but I'm not sure making adept powers cheaper is the way to go - they outshine sammies in other ways, so you wind up making adepts the kings of everything - why play a sammie at that point?

Overall yeah the IP are king. But if you milk it with combat sense a high reaction is awesome. I realize this is a campaign dependent thing, so for games where everyone is tossing over 9,000 dice every shot this isn't cool, but 5 levels of combat sense and a maxed reaction means 14 dice in dodging without the dodge skill. My Troll Boxer character(deceased) used it, and against most opposition I did not get hit. They had to wide spray things or focus fire lots of attacks to whittle my dodging down. It was my first SR4 character and other than having to deal with how crappy hand to hand combat is, he was a cool character. Give me a patch on hand to hand combat rules before a patch on adept costs please.

Actually, hand to hand adepts rule melee. To start out with, you have combat sense, mystic armor, killing hands, and critical strike. Street Magic adds things like elemental strike, counterstrike, and distance strike. Arsenal adds the martial arts styles and maneuvers. Add them all together, and you have adepts who are awesomely effective.

[Tyro]

<snip>
Actually, hand to hand adepts rule melee. To start out with, you have combat sense, mystic armor, killing hands, and critical strike. Street Magic adds things like elemental strike, counterstrike, and distance strike. Arsenal adds the martial arts styles and maneuvers. Add them all together, and you have adepts who are awesomely effective.

The problem is getting to the guys with the guns so you can punch them in the first place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Though high Reaction + Combat Sense works wonders for that, and it just gets CRAZY if you play a vampire (regeneration + 2 IP's naturally + make him an Adept (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Glyph]

Being a close combat specialist is like being a sniper - even if it's your main schtick, you're not going to be able to do it all of the time. Nearly every melee-focused character that I've made has a pistols skill, too.