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Tyro
By the RAW, nobody in his right mind would ever pick up Improved Reflexes when you can get Synaptic Boosters for .5 Essence/grade and Improved Reflexes costs 1/3/FIVE. On a related note, why get Improved Physical Attribute for 1 PP/rating (or twice that to go above natural max!) for anything but MAYBE Body when you could get Muscle Augmentation/Toner for .4 (.32 if Cultivated, .1 if you have Type O) per rating? If all you want Body for is damage resistance, get Bone Density!

I know I'm not the only one annoyed by this. What have you houseruled your costs to?
Fortune
I haven't!

Not every choice has to be equal. Sometimes magic does something better, and sometimes it is tech that takes the spotlight.
Whipstitch
Agreed. Also keep in mind that your Magic attribute is used for more than just determining your Power Points, it's also used for determining the maximum rating of your powers, the number of foci you can carry and it contributes to pools in Magic tests such as creating/pressing through wards and determining the maximum range on a Distance Strike. If you have two options that do the same thing for roughly the same BPs except for one hits your Magic attribue and the other doesn't, then the one that doesn't maul your Magic rating is clearly superior. Of course, you can still make the argument that the cost ratio doesn't have to be skewed as much in favor of 'ware as it currently is, but frankly, I'm not sure where to redraw the line, so I don't.
AngelisStorm
Synaptic Boosters also requires a fairly hideous amount of money.

I houseruled that Improved Physical Attribute costs 1 power point per level, none of this silly "doubling" nonsense. But that's all. Improved Reflexes is fine. Extra IP = win. If you don't want to pay the points, take drugs. I agree with Fortune and Whip.
pbangarth
I don't houserule any of the costs either.

The earlier arguments about Magic level being multi-valent are important, even for adepts. Adepts are slow growers, and in the beginning, heavy investment in tech makes a bigger bang. Later, things more than balance out. So it depends on how you want to play the character.

And besides, having no implants and therefore "suffering" in effectiveness is the best argument for convincing your GM that Sensitive System is not a cheesy Quality. smile.gif

Peter
Tyro
You all have valid points, but I still think FIVE POINTS is excessive (for Reflexes III). 1/2/3 makes more sense to me, or maybe 1/2.5/4 at the worst. Initiation is NOT cheap! And some of us can't take drugs (like anyone with regeneration).
Whipstitch
The fact that you can't easily make Nosferatu ungodly super fast regenerators isn't likely to sway me any time soon. In fact, I kind of consider it a bonus.
Tyro
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Dec 20 2008, 05:17 PM) *
The fact that you can't easily make Nosferatu ungodly super fast regenerators isn't likely to sway me any time soon. In fact, I kind of consider it a bonus.

Vampires work better for that due to their Agility bonus nyahnyah.gif
Fortune
I lied! embarrassed.gif wink.gif

I do actually house rule something relevant to this discussion ... the Essence and monetary costs of Wired Reflexes. I have changed them to ...

Level 1: 1.0 Essence - 11,000 nuyen.gif
Level 2: 2.0 Essence - 22,000 nuyen.gif
Level 3: 3.0 Essence - 33,000 nuyen.gif

Shhh though, I stole the figures from FrankTrollman. wink.gif
Hagga
Adepts have more variety, too.

I don't know why that mystic adepts are not listed as the most versatile (limited astral projection, gaki ghouls), but an adept can do things that would cost a magician a hefty amount of drain (if they could do it at all) that no Samurai, bio or cyber, can emulate.
Falconer
The cost is fine at 2/3/5 as per the book. Slightly expensive in terms of BP... but for a char who doesn't want to lose the essence well worth it. Another thing to consider is you generally don't need rating 3. Many fights are over by the 3rd pass, and the few which aren't spending an edge for a 4th IP is often times a good bargain.

Some GM's will also allow things like drugs to stack their extra IP on top of your others. Which I'm neutral on (not really broken IMO, though not strictly RAW either).

AngelisStorm
If I made it myself I would go with 2/3/4, but I like symmetry. It's fine being expensive. For every pass you are getting twice as many actions as a "normal" person. It should be expensive, it's the single most powerful combat advantage you can get.

And not being able to use drugs because your other super powers are getting in the way? To bad there isn't a crying smiley available.
Shinobi Killfist
I think a lot of the adept powers should be looked at again for there costs. Part of the problem IMO is that they made bioware too good of an option. yes, yes it the "new tech" blah blah. But level 1 synaptic is .5 essence vs 2 essence for wired, yeah 4 times cheaper is a bit much. Maybe the bioware version should be 1 a level instead of .5 a level. If they think it should be .5 a level the cyber version and magic should be 1 a level. Bioware on the 2x as essence friendly level is still potent as heck, and worth the nuyen.

For phys add costs though wall running, and the similar style 1 point each powers should be cheaper.

penetrating strike costs .25 magic the same as critical strike, and it caps at 3 while critical strike has no cap. I'm not a statistics expert, but -1 armor is about 1/3 as good as +1DV. Mayne critical strike should cost more, or they should get off this minimum .25 cost stuff, or make each level of penetrating strike remove 2 armor.

smashing blow, um one point so you can kick down doors better. Um its cool, but rarely worth the point you spent on it. Like wall running I think they have a cool tax or something, charge based on balance that would be silly, we charg eon how cool it is.

improved attribute ones, way over priced especially with the extremely lame hold over of costing x2 as much when over your racial unaugmented max.

Berserk, overpriced.

If sticking with a minimum cost of .25 a level, the base improvement for things like iron gut should be more than 1 die. spending a full point in magic so you have +4 dice vs ingested toxins,is just lame.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 20 2008, 08:37 PM) *
I haven't!

Not every choice has to be equal. Sometimes magic does something better, and sometimes it is tech that takes the spotlight.


Maybe not perfectly equal, especially when there are a lot of factors like, money vs karma, set essence vs potentially unlimited magic attribute. But one choice should not be borderline retarded to take in comparison. And that is what you have with the disgustingly essence friendly bioware vs magic for initiative boosters.
Glyph
I disagree that initiative boosters are set to that point. The big thing to remember about the synaptic booster is that it costs a lot of money. This translates to 16 build points in resources per level, so even saving 10-20 points, you don't come out ahead. Generally, synaptic booster is best used for builds where you simply need more Magic points, such as a gunslinger/face or martial arts expert. In other words, when you need an attribute boost and a lot of other powers. And such options still wind up more hyper-specialized than other adept builds. Improved reflexes is set at a price where it remains a viable choice, even if not the most optimal one.

Improved Attribute, on the other hand, goes too far. While I agree with Fortune that not every choice should be equal, I think it's going too far when no one (at least, that I'm aware of) takes a certain option. You could halve the costs, and bioware would still usually be a better option, but at least then, some people would actually consider taking it. Currently, I would not consider taking that ability for any build. For most builds, I would take muscle toner and/or muscle augmentation, while for "pure" adepts I would take one point of Attribute Boost/Agility.
Fortune
I agree with you about Improved Attribute. smile.gif
pbangarth
I think an argument based on cost effectiveness could be made for use of Improved Attribute as long as the character is bent on not losing Essence, along the lines of the discussion earlier.

With that proviso, if you did not want to pay the 25 BP at chargen for the last point in an Attribute, but really wanted it, one could get it for 10 BP worth through the adept power.

I know. You have to want to keep Essence, and you really want to max out that Attribute right at chargen. But there must be some who work with those requirements.

Peter
Red_Cap
The one Adept I've ever actually played, I took Improved Attribute/Agility, but only because, as was previously noted, I wanted to max it out and was averse to losing even the smallest percentage of essence.
Clyde
I'm going to houserule Improved Physical Attribute to .5 per level for the first two levels, then 1 per level thereafter. That goes a long way toward equalling the effectiveness of bioware, but keeps the ability from totally taking over for Improved Ability. Speaking of, I'd remove the 1/2 skill cap from Improved Ability as well.

Finally, I think Improved Reflexes is okay as is - but that only becuase Improved Reaction would only cost .5 for the first two levels in my game smile.gif Otherwise it would need to be reduced.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 05:36 PM) *
I disagree that initiative boosters are set to that point. The big thing to remember about the synaptic booster is that it costs a lot of money. This translates to 16 build points in resources per level, so even saving 10-20 points, you don't come out ahead. Generally, synaptic booster is best used for builds where you simply need more Magic points, such as a gunslinger/face or martial arts expert. In other words, when you need an attribute boost and a lot of other powers. And such options still wind up more hyper-specialized than other adept builds. Improved reflexes is set at a price where it remains a viable choice, even if not the most optimal one.


Lets see 16 build points per level or 32 for level 2 the highest you can start with. You need 30 build points with magic.(well 25 if that is all you had) So lets say you have level 2 of the physadd increased reflexes and oh 2 points of magic in other crap. That would cost 45 build points to make. 32 points in bioware, +5 for being a physadd +2 more magic =57. I lost a whopping 15 build points, much of which is made up the first time I raise my magic.

I don't think magic should do things better in all cases, but for a magic type, magic should be the better option, and its not by a long shot outside of one shot adventures.
Tyro
QUOTE (Clyde @ Dec 21 2008, 05:08 PM) *
I'm going to houserule Improved Physical Attribute to .5 per level for the first two levels, then 1 per level thereafter. That goes a long way toward equalling the effectiveness of bioware, but keeps the ability from totally taking over for Improved Ability. Speaking of, I'd remove the 1/2 skill cap from Improved Ability as well.

Finally, I think Improved Reflexes is okay as is - but that only becuase Improved Reaction would only cost .5 for the first two levels in my game smile.gif Otherwise it would need to be reduced.

The Reaction bonus from Improved Reflexes is nice, but it's the extra IP's which really make the ability.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tyro @ Dec 21 2008, 08:13 PM) *
The Reaction bonus from Improved Reflexes is nice, but it's the extra IP's which really make the ability.


Overall yeah the IP are king. But if you milk it with combat sense a high reaction is awesome. I realize this is a campaign dependent thing, so for games where everyone is tossing over 9,000 dice every shot this isn't cool, but 5 levels of combat sense and a maxed reaction means 14 dice in dodging without the dodge skill. My Troll Boxer character(deceased) used it, and against most opposition I did not get hit. They had to wide spray things or focus fire lots of attacks to whittle my dodging down. It was my first SR4 character and other than having to deal with how crappy hand to hand combat is, he was a cool character. Give me a patch on hand to hand combat rules before a patch on adept costs please.
Glyph
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Dec 21 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Lets see 16 build points per level or 32 for level 2 the highest you can start with. You need 30 build points with magic.(well 25 if that is all you had) So lets say you have level 2 of the physadd increased reflexes and oh 2 points of magic in other crap. That would cost 45 build points to make. 32 points in bioware, +5 for being a physadd +2 more magic =57. I lost a whopping 15 build points, much of which is made up the first time I raise my magic.

Actually, it's only 12 points cheaper, although I wouldn't use synaptic boosters and then only add 2 points to my base Magic - I usually start out with a 5 or 6, so I am paying the 45-60 points then bioware. Doing it your way, why bother - you are losing 12 BP without getting the real advantage - being able to pack more powers into your adept.

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Dec 21 2008, 07:13 PM) *
I don't think magic should do things better in all cases, but for a magic type, magic should be the better option, and its not by a long shot outside of one shot adventures.

It depends on how you see Magic. I personally like the notion that getting some cybereyes can tempt a mage, and getting some biomods can tempt an adept. I like the idea of technology getting entwined in everything, to the point that a "pure" mage or adept is at a disadvantage against someone with some high tech mixed in with their magic. Shadowrun is a game where doing the "right" thing is difficult, and that should extend to magical advancement.

If you think Magic and 'ware should be less compatible, there are all kinds of ways to house rule it, but I'm not sure making adept powers cheaper is the way to go - they outshine sammies in other ways, so you wind up making adepts the kings of everything - why play a sammie at that point?

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Dec 21 2008, 07:27 PM) *
Overall yeah the IP are king. But if you milk it with combat sense a high reaction is awesome. I realize this is a campaign dependent thing, so for games where everyone is tossing over 9,000 dice every shot this isn't cool, but 5 levels of combat sense and a maxed reaction means 14 dice in dodging without the dodge skill. My Troll Boxer character(deceased) used it, and against most opposition I did not get hit. They had to wide spray things or focus fire lots of attacks to whittle my dodging down. It was my first SR4 character and other than having to deal with how crappy hand to hand combat is, he was a cool character. Give me a patch on hand to hand combat rules before a patch on adept costs please.

Actually, hand to hand adepts rule melee. To start out with, you have combat sense, mystic armor, killing hands, and critical strike. Street Magic adds things like elemental strike, counterstrike, and distance strike. Arsenal adds the martial arts styles and maneuvers. Add them all together, and you have adepts who are awesomely effective.
Tyro
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 06:16 PM) *
<snip>
Actually, hand to hand adepts rule melee. To start out with, you have combat sense, mystic armor, killing hands, and critical strike. Street Magic adds things like elemental strike, counterstrike, and distance strike. Arsenal adds the martial arts styles and maneuvers. Add them all together, and you have adepts who are awesomely effective.

The problem is getting to the guys with the guns so you can punch them in the first place grinbig.gif

Though high Reaction + Combat Sense works wonders for that, and it just gets CRAZY if you play a vampire (regeneration + 2 IP's naturally + make him an Adept grinbig.gif
Glyph
Being a close combat specialist is like being a sniper - even if it's your main schtick, you're not going to be able to do it all of the time. Nearly every melee-focused character that I've made has a pistols skill, too.
ElFenrir
Oh, I houserule away. Sure, sometimes tech takes the spotlight, but even at .5 points a power, tech STILL takes the spotlight. In another thread around here, I fumbled with costs of .25/level up to the regular max and .5/level to the augmented max, and tech still, once again, wins out. Sure, the Magic loss of a couple of points from the tech means you got to go a bit lower on the power levels, but I find it's not that much of a disadvantage, and you can just initiate and bring the magic right back up again anyway. At least with the houserules i did, people are more inclined to want to play a pure adept once in awhile, even though the bioware(especially with something like Biocompatibility) ends up edging it out. [I'd have to dig up the thread where I did all the math, but basically, even with the drastically reduced costs, the tech still ruled out a bit.]

I've been kicking around prices for the reflexes; 1/2/3 feels somewhat lower for the big important passes, and Boosters are balanced by their high cost(toner/augmentation, on the other hand are cheap, and are almost ALWAYS got over the joke of the improved attribute power in a normal game), so maybe 1.5/2.5/3.5 might work out better. It's only an extra .5, but it somehow feels a little nicer. Or perhaps level 3 could be 4 points; level 3 reflexes are sort of the ''doozy'' when it comes to combat of any kind(wired, you give up almost all your starting essence, boosters, your starting cash, I figure level 3 reflexes could see you giving up most of your starting magic. I say 4 rather than 5 since you did still have to purchase the attribute up, and it sort of balances it out, IMO.)

Then again, I'm a fan of being able to play a pure physical adept that isn't always left behind by the sam if you want to, which is why I did this. [I'm pretty good at number-crunching I'd like to think, and even using martial arts and the whole nine, the sams I've built seem to always outdo a pure physad, in 400 BP, 600 Karma, and 750 Karma. The pure physad now and then has a random edge here and there, but 9 times out of ten, under RAW; if you take a pure physad, you're at a disadvantage vs. a sam that a pure face or pure stealth adept doesn't have over their cyber counterpart-in fact, a pure face, tech, or stealth adept are often better. I suppose I was a bit confused as to why the magical counterparts of the face/tech were so far ahead of their tech-counterparts, but the physad felt behind.]

Mentioning the stealth/tech/face adepts; I wouldn't mind actually bridging the gap between them and their cyber counterparts either, only in the other way; trying to find a way where the ADEPT version won't beat the mundane version almost every time.

In other words, I want people to be able to play what they want to play on flavor rather than picking what ends up being the ''best'' option. I mean, while we tend to do that anyway, it DOES suck when someone wants to play a pure physad and they watch the sam outdo them all the time, or someone wants to be a mundane face and watch as the adept-face constantly one-ups them.

Hagga
Again, given the way movement works in Shadowrun, closing with someone is no problem. You can also throw physics out the window (Big thing in Shadowrun, I know), scream "FUCK YEAH, EXALTED" and use gymnastics to bounce off a wall and land in front of your target. That sort of thing.
Hagga
Again, given the way movement works in Shadowrun, closing with someone is no problem. You can also throw physics out the window (Big thing in Shadowrun, I know), scream "FUCK YEAH, EXALTED" and use gymnastics to bounce off a wall and land in front of your target. That sort of thing.
Warlordtheft
Also, magical healing is hampered by the essnce loss.
Tyro
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 06:38 PM) *
Being a close combat specialist is like being a sniper - even if it's your main schtick, you're not going to be able to do it all of the time. Nearly every melee-focused character that I've made has a pistols skill, too.

I prefer grenades, myself. My vampire pugilist tosses in a Breathstealer grenade and charges in (he's immune to the breathstealer gas). If they can't see heat, ordinary smoke grenades work wonders. And so on.
Glyph
What book is breathstealer gas from? I don't remember seeing it. But don't vampires have the induced dormancy/lack of air weakness?
pbangarth
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 21 2008, 07:44 PM) *
Also, magical healing is hampered by the essnce loss.


This difference is rarely mentioned, and yet can be very important. I get the sense that people don't value this difference because PCs don't seem to get hurt enough to make it important to them. I may be wrong on the reason.

Every lost point of essence is also a lost die in healing tests.

Peter
Tyro
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 06:54 PM) *
What book is breathstealer gas from? I don't remember seeing it. But don't vampires have the induced dormancy/lack of air weakness?

Breathtaker doesn't choke you in the usual sense. It's a toxin which robs your lungs of air, like carbon monoxide on crack. Vampires are immune to toxins. I believe it's in Arsenal; breathtaker gas grenades are also pretty cheap at 70 nuyen.gif a pop.
Morrigana
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 08:54 PM) *
What book is breathstealer gas from? I don't remember seeing it. But don't vampires have the induced dormancy/lack of air weakness?


That's an optional weakness, not one that all automatically have.
Glyph
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 21 2008, 09:12 PM) *
That's an optional weakness, not one that all automatically have.

Nope, looking at pg. 81, it's a standard weakness. There are (optional) alternate types of vampires, such as the Sukuyan, which don't have it, but "standard" vampires do.
Morrigana
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 21 2008, 09:21 PM) *
Nope, looking at pg. 81, it's a standard weakness. There are (optional) alternate types of vampires, such as the Sukuyan, which don't have it, but "standard" vampires do.

Misread it in the BBB. It was noting optional items in the beginning of the notes, then switches directly into items that are mandatory.
toturi
Let's examine this using the flavor of the month character generation system.

750 karmagen

Magic 4-6 45 karma (assuming worst karma costs for pure Magic adept)

160000 nuyen 64 karma

Magic 2 6 karma (assuming best karma cost for bio adept)

Cost for 3IPs pure = 45 karma

Cost for 3IPs bio = 70 karma

Difference = 25 karma and this is the best case comparison scenario for bio adept that I can think of.
Glyph
The bioware adept always comes out second in a pure cost comparison. The advantage of the bioware adept is that the extra cost gives you the equivalent of extra power points. It's the same way that elves come out 10 points less than humans on the Build Point system, but people will still pay that premium to be able to have a Charisma two points higher for their face.

For a bioware adept, you (for example) buy Magic up to 6, then get, for example, synaptic booster: 2, muscle toner: 2, muscle augmentation: 2, and reflex recorders for unarmed combat and pistols. You now have 4 points of Magic left for your martial artist. So you get (one example) two more points of improved ability in unarmed combat, four points in critical strike, killing hands, one level of counterstrike, and two points of combat sense.

Compare the Magic: 6 guy. He can spend four of his points buying the same powers, then he has two points left to, well, get improved reflexes: 1, probably, since IPs are so important. He might even drop the two points of combat sense, so he can get it at 2. And he might also reluctantly drop a level of critical strike in favor of one point of Agility Boost, since he doesn't have anything improving his Agility right now.

Now, the natural adept might have 40 BP/80 Karma more to spend, since he didn't need to buy all of that expensive 'ware, so he'll naturally be a bit more well-rounded. But in his core specialty of unarmed combat, he will be significantly behind the hybrid adept. Essentially, it's a tradeoff. This is why I generally favor bioware for adepts who are either combat hyperspecialists, or characters trying to perform two roles (such as combat and face duties), who need those extra power points.
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 22 2008, 12:18 PM) *
The bioware adept always comes out second in a pure cost comparison. The advantage of the bioware adept is that the extra cost gives you the equivalent of extra power points. It's the same way that elves come out 10 points less than humans on the Build Point system, but people will still pay that premium to be able to have a Charisma two points higher for their face.

For a bioware adept, you (for example) buy Magic up to 6, then get, for example, synaptic booster: 2, muscle toner: 2, muscle augmentation: 2, and reflex recorders for unarmed combat and pistols. You now have 4 points of Magic left for your martial artist. So you get (one example) two more points of improved ability in unarmed combat, four points in critical strike, killing hands, one level of counterstrike, and two points of combat sense.

Compare the Magic: 6 guy. He can spend four of his points buying the same powers, then he has two points left to, well, get improved reflexes: 1, probably, since IPs are so important. He might even drop the two points of combat sense, so he can get it at 2. And he might also reluctantly drop a level of critical strike in favor of one point of Agility Boost, since he doesn't have anything improving his Agility right now.

Now, the natural adept might have 40 BP/80 Karma more to spend, since he didn't need to buy all of that expensive 'ware, so he'll naturally be a bit more well-rounded. But in his core specialty of unarmed combat, he will be significantly behind the hybrid adept. Essentially, it's a tradeoff. This is why I generally favor bioware for adepts who are either combat hyperspecialists, or characters trying to perform two roles (such as combat and face duties), who need those extra power points.

I am not disputing that a bio adept can essentially cherry pick the better abilities. I was simply showing that the Increased Reflexes power costs are balanced for what they do.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 20 2008, 06:37 PM) *
I haven't!

Not every choice has to be equal. Sometimes magic does something better, and sometimes it is tech that takes the spotlight.

Not every choice needs to be equal, but every choice needs to be viable - if something is unplayable because of how bad it is, it's not really a choice, & needs to be reworked or removed.

Several Adept power costs are fucking retarded. The same goes with various other things in the game (*cough*Spell/Spirit Knack*cough*), but it is usually most noticed in the Adept abilities, primarily Improved Physical Attribute. As the costs are now, it is very difficult to play a viable "pure" combat/physical Adept, sometimes impossible, with the options available to the samurai or hybrid.




Edit: Among other changes, I suggest reducing Wired Reflexes cost (Essence & Nuyen) to that suggested by FrankTrollman, reducing Increased Reflexes to Level x 1 Power Points, & reducing Improved Physical Attribute to Level x 0.5, and change it to an Attribute Augmentation (opposed to increasing the actual value as it does now - which at best overly complicates matters; at worst gives us the crap we have now).

While most Adept powers are actually fine, there are quite a few that are either overpriced, underpowered, or both. I will get around to posting my full list of suggested changes eventually. The only Power I suggest actually increasing the cost on is Critical Strike, which I believe should be Level x 0.5.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 22 2008, 12:38 AM) *
I am not disputing that a bio adept can essentially cherry pick the better abilities. I was simply showing that the Increased Reflexes power costs are balanced for what they do.

Not really. The high cost is significantly limiting on the Adepts abilities - the Increased Reflexes power as written is certainly one of the less useful, & even with builds I need it with, I hesitate to take it. It is not as obviously retarded as Increased Physical Attribute, but it is far from a viable choice.
Tyro
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 21 2008, 11:05 PM) *
<snip>
While most Adept powers are actually fine, there are quite a few that are either overpriced, underpowered, or both. I will get around to posting my full list of suggested changes eventually. The only Power I suggest actually increasing the cost on is Critical Strike, which I believe should be Level x 0.5.

I look forward to reading your suggestions. The ones you've given so far make a lot of sense to me.


QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 21 2008, 11:35 PM) *
Not really. The high cost is significantly limiting on the Adepts abilities - the Increased Reflexes power as written is certainly one of the less useful, & even with builds I need it with, I hesitate to take it. It is not as obviously retarded as Increased Physical Attribute, but it is far from a viable choice.

EXACTLY my point.
toturi
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 22 2008, 03:35 PM) *
Not really. The high cost is significantly limiting on the Adepts abilities - the Increased Reflexes power as written is certainly one of the less useful, & even with builds I need it with, I hesitate to take it. It is not as obviously retarded as Increased Physical Attribute, but it is far from a viable choice.

Improved Reflexes 2 seems quite viable to me. In fact, that I almost always choose Imp Reflexes 2 over similar IP enhancements for my combat adepts.
Mx
And Improved Reflexes 3 is the only way to get 4 IP at chargen, so the pure adebt has one extra ip to kick ass compared to bio-adebt.
Tyro
QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 22 2008, 12:56 AM) *
And Improved Reflexes 3 is the only way to get 4 IP at chargen, so the pure adebt has one extra ip to kick ass compared to bio-adebt.

But the bio-adept is more powerful in the long term.
Red_Cap
At that point, though, the nature of the discussion changes to: hit harder, or hit more? It's the same sort of argument I have with my buddies about 5.56mm versus 7.62mm. Sure, an AK will knock you down with one shot, but in the same time it takes a trained marksman to fire one aimed round from an AK, a similarly trained marksman can fire three or four aimed rounds from an M-16. Personally, I'd take the M-16 and, therefore, the extra IP.
Mx
QUOTE (Red_Cap @ Dec 22 2008, 11:34 AM) *
but in the same time it takes a trained marksman to fire one aimed round from an AK, a similarly trained marksman can fire three or four aimed rounds from an M-16.

wobble.gif
Um what the hell are you talking about.
ElFenrir
I kinda like Critical Strike where it is, and since they dropped the +DV from the martial arts to +3 max, and bio-adepts end up with less levels of this anyway, I don't see it being .25 as being too bad. Still costs them 1/4 of their points for +6DV, although it MIGHT just be me looking at it next to all of the other overpriced stuff(as in, don't take this away from them too.) However, with everything much more reasonably cost...it might be ok at that point. I still think I'm going to try out .25/point for an Attribute up to max, and .5/after, to see how it works; if the adepts end up TOO inflated(they haven't in the builds I've made so far), I'll cut it back to a flat .5/level.

I'd be willing to give the whole Reflex thing a go, too.

I've always found Berserk to be a bit...overcost. It's 1 point. Ok, so you get +1 to all of your physical(which may or may not change your DV or Damage Boxes), but it's definitely a little boost-and you get a - to your mental(which means your Initiative equals out, and you may or may not lose some stun.) Looking at it again, I don't see it granting anything else. Oh, except for the fact that you can't manually turn it off until it's finished and you can possibly lose it with your friends. This power is usually used as a disadvantage to Mentor Spirits and the like(without the attribute boost, to be fair). But still, it's also a....10 BP negative quality, if I recall? I think 1 point is a *bit* much for this. You probably end up with +1 dice to your combat and dodge skills, a -1 to any Mental skills(including spell resistance) and with the other minuses you take(particularly the possible shorter Stun track), and the fact you really have little control over yourself makes me think this power could be .5 and still balanced.
Tyro
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Dec 22 2008, 02:29 AM) *
<snip>
I've always found Berserk to be a bit...overcost. It's 1 point. Ok, so you get +1 to all of your physical(which may or may not change your DV or Damage Boxes), but it's definitely a little boost-and you get a - to your mental(which means your Initiative equals out, and you may or may not lose some stun.) Looking at it again, I don't see it granting anything else. Oh, except for the fact that you can't manually turn it off until it's finished and you can possibly lose it with your friends. This power is usually used as a disadvantage to Mentor Spirits and the like(without the attribute boost, to be fair). But still, it's also a....10 BP negative quality, if I recall? I think 1 point is a *bit* much for this. You probably end up with +1 dice to your combat and dodge skills, a -1 to any Mental skills(including spell resistance) and with the other minuses you take(particularly the possible shorter Stun track), and the fact you really have little control over yourself makes me think this power could be .5 and still balanced.

Agreed.
Red_Cap
QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 22 2008, 03:56 AM) *
wobble.gif
Um what the hell are you talking about.



AIMED shots, not squeezing the trigger on auto and hoping for the best. Forget it, it was a bad analogy.
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