Technomancer Echoes, OMFG... Options

[The Jake]

I've just been reading the Technomancer echoes and Advanced echoes in Unwired.

I have two words:
Jesus Christ.

Some of the things I am seeing here are un-frigging-believable.

I'm particularly blown away by Biowire, Acceleration, Mesh Reality -- perfect for creating a technomancer that can hold his own in combat without any cyberware. Resonance Trodes could be used by a technomancer with awesome unarmed combat and the right martial art.

Info Sortilage, Sift can make you a Bloodhound of the Matrix.

E-sensing, Immersion, Living ECM, Mind Over Machine makes you an absolute walking nightmare around any form of electronics.

Advanced Overclocking, Blur, Flexible Touch makes a hacker an uber-hacker.

I haven't even touched Paragons or Widgets.

Honestly, I don't know what to say...

Was anyone else as impressed by this as I am?

- J.

[hermit]

'Impressed' propably isn't the right word, but "OMFG" were my first thoughts, too.

They're totally overpowered and make these already too easily abused characters even more of a PITA.

[The Jake]

Not really. It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag". It also makes them competitive vs a mundane hacker with truckloads of nuyen. But they do get significant perks.

Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

Is there any good info on technomancer builds? After reading Unwired I'm blown away with 1000 options for character builds. Even conceptually I'm suffering information overload. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All in a good way of course.

- J.

[GreyBrother]

It's not so much OMFG if you take a closer look and read the fine print.
But in the german boards, everyone went berzerk about it too, so... go on.

[Neraph]

Not really. It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag". It also makes them competitive vs a mundane hacker with truckloads of nuyen. But they do get significant perks.

Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

Is there any good info on technomancer builds? After reading Unwired I'm blown away with 1000 options for character builds. Even conceptually I'm suffering information overload. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All in a good way of course.

- J.

Off a 400 BP starting character it's best to go rigger, and slowly build up your actual hacking skills. Until then, Crack Sprite is the way to go.

[hermit]

It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag".

How exactly does Technomancer brokenness make hackers better characters? I suppose you meant mancers?

Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

No, they're even more broken. Mages get no 5 IP. Mages get no metamagic that makes them replacement sammies. Mages cannot brainhack you from across the planet, while making their guns insanely powerful (widget + supporting sprite, AR-assisted shooting, smartlink echo, force 4 machine sprite optimising gun) like weapon foci that can also do ranged combat. Mages can have spirits materialise, true, but a machine sprite possessing and optimising a drone packs just as much punch.

[Morrigana]

To be honest, hacking and technos were a little broken from the getgo. There was nothing really stopping them from brainhacking you from across the planet or making their guns insanely powerful before this. Now, it's just a bit more obvious.

That's the whole problem with the wireless communications setup of this edition. About the only way I can think of to realistically solve it is to remove the wireless.

Oh, and you'll love this: The hacking issue we're facing with this edition? It's the reason why the sys admins at my job won't allow wifi connections to be installed.

[JonathanC]

I think the hacking rules would be fine if you just ushered in some common-sense network security. As it is now, network security in Shadowrun has basically given up on trying to keep people out, and instead is focused on (maybe) killing them once they get in.

[hermit]

To be honest, hacking and technos were a little broken from the getgo. There was nothing really stopping them from brainhacking you from across the planet or making their guns insanely powerful before this. Now, it's just a bit more obvious.

Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.

That's the whole problem with the wireless communications setup of this edition. About the only way I can think of to realistically solve it is to remove the wireless.

Heresy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, and you'll love this: The hacking issue we're facing with this edition? It's the reason why the sys admins at my job won't allow wifi connections to be installed.

With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.

[Morrigana]

Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.

You mean they weren't supposed to be able to before? Looks like I was doing something wrong...

Heresy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Now I have "Purge the Heretic!" in a Space Marine voice echoing in my head.

With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.

I would say they're not even up to 90s tech bubble on this one. Maybe very early 90s. Most sys admins I know off were against wifi before it even came out and the reality of it only told them that their suspicions were optimistic. SR basically took what would be a sys admin's worst nightmare and made it how the system runs. SR3's system actually resembles the modern internet enough that it looked like a natural evolution of it.

To be honest, SR4's matrix looks like something the most rank amature when it comes to internet security would come up with. Now, we're not talking about my level of amatureness, and I will be the first to admit you should call tech support before talking to me, but someone who's basic clue about the net is "I go clicky clicky, website pops up, hey it would be cool if I could do this anywhere." The "security" systems of the current Matrix are not even up to the technology level of real world wifi security, and those are viewed as a joke by anyone who has actual knowledge that I talk to. Even more so when you consider it would actually take even less to destroy the current Matrix than SR history has it taking to destroy the internet (the interconnectiveness and openness of it means a virus inserted into the system could easily spread to everything before you'd even have a chance to detect it).

Essentially, I see this current Matrix as lasting maybe ten years in game time before someone takes it out. Then, you can kiss technos, hackers, and millions of other people goodbye. I wouldn't be surprised if SR5 lacked technos completely; I can't think of a realistic justification, even adjusting for the SR world, for them to survive the transition to the next Matrix.

As for them being Neo: The objective of Neo was to help "reset" the Matrix, in effect making him the key to a wipe and reload system. Technos were supposed to be Neo from the very moment they announced how the Matrix for SR3 was going to end.

[hobgoblin]

iirc, they outlaw blackberries because all data goes thru a third party nation (canada).

and it only really got talked about after france and china made similar noises about getting national servers because of said traffic routing issue...

in SR4, the government will probably be running their own vpn and government issued comlinks (bought from the lowest bidder megacorp).

[hermit]

I would say they're not even up to 90s tech bubble on this one. Maybe very early 90s. Most sys admins I know off were against wifi before it even came out and the reality of it only told them that their suspicions were optimistic. SR basically took what would be a sys admin's worst nightmare and made it how the system runs. SR3's system actually resembles the modern internet enough that it looked like a natural evolution of it.

To be fair, AR does make sense, though it was possible with the 3rd rules too (tortiose decking + display link/datagoggles). I really dislike lumping in Riggers with Deckers, but meh, that might even be understandable from a practical purpose, as in, streamlining the rules. Though keeping them seperate in teh fluff, with emulations in either directio at a cost, like in SR3, would have been better, of course.

Essentially, I see this current Matrix as lasting maybe ten years in game time before someone takes it out. Then, you can kiss technos, hackers, and millions of other people goodbye. I wouldn't be surprised if SR5 lacked technos completely; I can't think of a realistic justification, even adjusting for the SR world, for them to survive the transition to the next Matrix.

As for them being Neo: The objective of Neo was to help "reset" the Matrix, in effect making him the key to a wipe and reload system. Technos were supposed to be Neo from the very moment they announced how the Matrix for SR3 was going to end.

Yes, I agree here, it really makes sense. Their Neo-ness became much more obvious with unwired, though. But, given how many players seem to dig into the technomancer stuff, I fear they're there to stay.

[Morrigana]

To be fair, AR does make sense, though it was possible with the 3rd rules too (tortiose decking + display link/datagoggles). I really dislike lumping in Riggers with Deckers, but meh, that might even be understandable from a practical purpose, as in, streamlining the rules. Though keeping them seperate in teh fluff, with emulations in either directio at a cost, like in SR3, would have been better, of course.

I agree that AR was possible. It was even possible in a manner similar to how it is with SR4 in SR3. Really, I don't see any reason why they couldn't have done it anyway.

Yes, I agree here, it really makes sense. Their Neo-ness became much more obvious with unwired, though. But, given how many players seem to dig into the technomancer stuff, I fear they're there to stay.

Well... if they do stay around and we essentially go to something like the SR3 Matrix, what's really to stop them from acting as they do now, only in a more limited form? I don't really see any reason they couldn't attempt to hack a computer with just their mind.

[hermit]

I agree that AR was possible. It was even possible in a manner similar to how it is with SR4 in SR3. Really, I don't see any reason why they couldn't have done it anyway.

Neither do I.

Well... if they do stay around and we essentially go to something like the SR3 Matrix, what's really to stop them from acting as they do now, only in a more limited form? I don't really see any reason they couldn't attempt to hack a computer with just their mind.

They'd need to connect nonwirelessly, like the Otaku did. They'd need a datajack.

iirc, they outlaw blackberries because all data goes thru a third party nation (canada).

For all I know, it's because eavedropping is so damn easy.

in SR4, the government will probably be running their own vpn and government issued comlinks (bought from the lowest bidder megacorp).

Yes. Which would offer exactly zero security.

Of course, it IS possible to make SR4 matrix systems unhackable by rules rape. Like, install a spoof chip into your commlink that spoofs it's access codes every 10 hours,a nd strong-encrypt it with 24 hours. Minimum hacking time 12 hours. If the node is hacked, the hacked codes are already invaluated.

Of course, that's not using the rules as they were intended to be used.

[Morrigana]

They'd need to connect nonwirelessly, like the Otaku did. They'd need a datajack.

Not necessarily; they might need to physically touch something connected to the network and use their own flesh as a form a datajack, but they don't actually need implants if done right.

They would still have to have access to the Matrix, and would still have to go on-site for computer systems which are completely cut off.

[hermit]

Point, there's this hideously broken power now to hack stuff via skinlink even if device isn't skinlinked.

And no, they wouldn't. Resonance quests can give you access to computers NOT CONNECTED TO ANYTHING AT ALL. However, if you use the above mentioned combination of spoof chip and strong encryption, that wn't help the mancer a lot. But, like I said, that's abusing rules loopholes more than intended by the devs, I think.

[Morrigana]

Actually, I was suggesting a way to make it a bit more realistic while still keeping the feel. Give them all of the power of a hacker within their head, but give them some of the limitations as well. If a hacker needs to go on-site and hack into the system, so do they.

[hermit]

Good idea, really. balanced, Technos might be tolerable, much like Otaku were. Too bad that's not what the devs had in mind ...

[WeaverMount]

How exactly does Technomancer brokenness make hackers better characters? I suppose you meant mancers?

No, they're even more broken.

>Mages get no 5 IP.
They just get 4 for basically nothing

>Mages get no metamagic that makes them replacement sammies.
Channeling is far more broken. Then there is combat sense, detect detect enemies, armor, flight, mana barrier, and the ability to defend vs magic.

>Mages cannot brainhack you from across the planet
What would you call ritual Magic mindprobe, alter memory, and influence?

>while making their guns insanely powerful, like weapon foci that can also do ranged combat.
Possession and Analyze device, plus access to detection spells

>Mages can have spirits materialise, true, but a machine sprite possessing and optimising a drone packs just as much punch.
Spirits are more hard core than drones and free, and deploying them is effortless.

[Ryu]

Good idea, really. balanced, Technos might be tolerable, much like Otaku were. Too bad that's not what the devs had in mind ...

The 750 karma-based TM of my GF does pretty well so far, but is also easily challenged. I´m sure that I could build a hacker that could compete.

[hermit]

What would you call ritual Magic mindprobe, alter memory, and influence?

A whole lot harder.

Spirits are more hard core than drones and free, and deploying them is effortless.

Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.

Possession and Analyze device, plus access to detection spells

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

Channeling is far more broken. Then there is combat sense, detect detect enemies, armor, flight, mana barrier, and the ability to defend vs magic.

Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

No, they're even more broken.

I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?

They just get 4 for basically nothing

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.

The 750 karma-based TM of my GF does pretty well so far, but is also easily challenged. I´m sure that I could build a hacker that could compete.

Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.

[WeaverMount]

Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

>A whole lot harder.
Eh, I see trade offs.

>Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.
They don't you compared a Sprite+Drone to a spirit, and a Sprite+Drone does cost money

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

You actually possess the shooter or get a guardian spirit to possess someone with insane agility. And yes Analyse device does give actual dice.

Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

I this is also pretty incorrect. Channeling let's you effectively add you magic to your physical stats exceeding normal aug max. I don't see how any spirit power you can summon or any spell you know is less versicle. And if ever there is a time when you need to have your spirit do something else that is still an option, so I don't really see that as cutting into there effectiveness.

>I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?
That was text of yours I forgot to delete

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.


Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.

[WeaverMount]

Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

>A whole lot harder.
Eh, I see trade offs.

>Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.
They don't you compared a Sprite+Drone to a spirit, and a Sprite+Drone does cost money

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

You actually possess the shooter or get a guardian spirit to possess someone with insane agility. And yes Analyse device does give actual dice.

Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

I this is also pretty incorrect. Channeling let's you effectively add you magic to your physical stats exceeding normal aug max. I don't see how any spirit power you can summon or any spell you know is less versicle. And if ever there is a time when you need to have your spirit do something else that is still an option, so I don't really see that as cutting into there effectiveness.

>I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?
That was text of yours I forgot to delete

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.


Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.

[hobgoblin]

i love how "broken" have become the number 1 rpg buzzword...

any rule it seems that someone dont like or dont agree with is "broken"...

whats next, anyone playing the rules as written are "brain damaged"?

[hermit]

Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

I see mancers as marginaly worse, because they get some stuff mages don't, and (for instance) don't have to pay hideous sums for their foci, but can just improvise them.