Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Technomancer Echoes
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
The Jake
I've just been reading the Technomancer echoes and Advanced echoes in Unwired.

I have two words:
Jesus Christ.

Some of the things I am seeing here are un-frigging-believable.

I'm particularly blown away by Biowire, Acceleration, Mesh Reality -- perfect for creating a technomancer that can hold his own in combat without any cyberware. Resonance Trodes could be used by a technomancer with awesome unarmed combat and the right martial art.

Info Sortilage, Sift can make you a Bloodhound of the Matrix.

E-sensing, Immersion, Living ECM, Mind Over Machine makes you an absolute walking nightmare around any form of electronics.

Advanced Overclocking, Blur, Flexible Touch makes a hacker an uber-hacker.

I haven't even touched Paragons or Widgets.

Honestly, I don't know what to say...

Was anyone else as impressed by this as I am?

- J.

hermit
'Impressed' propably isn't the right word, but "OMFG" were my first thoughts, too.

They're totally overpowered and make these already too easily abused characters even more of a PITA.
The Jake
Not really. It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag". It also makes them competitive vs a mundane hacker with truckloads of nuyen. But they do get significant perks.

Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

Is there any good info on technomancer builds? After reading Unwired I'm blown away with 1000 options for character builds. Even conceptually I'm suffering information overload. biggrin.gif

All in a good way of course.

- J.

GreyBrother
It's not so much OMFG if you take a closer look and read the fine print.
But in the german boards, everyone went berzerk about it too, so... go on.
Neraph
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 21 2008, 07:48 AM) *
Not really. It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag". It also makes them competitive vs a mundane hacker with truckloads of nuyen. But they do get significant perks.

Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

Is there any good info on technomancer builds? After reading Unwired I'm blown away with 1000 options for character builds. Even conceptually I'm suffering information overload. biggrin.gif

All in a good way of course.

- J.

Off a 400 BP starting character it's best to go rigger, and slowly build up your actual hacking skills. Until then, Crack Sprite is the way to go.
hermit
QUOTE
It makes hackers more playable instead of the "virtual matrix god/meatbody punching bag".

How exactly does Technomancer brokenness make hackers better characters? I suppose you meant mancers?

QUOTE
Really, they're not that different from magicians now. And with how AR works its fairly evident they were trying to apply how magicians work to the old deckers (since one worked and the other clearly didn't).

No, they're even more broken. Mages get no 5 IP. Mages get no metamagic that makes them replacement sammies. Mages cannot brainhack you from across the planet, while making their guns insanely powerful (widget + supporting sprite, AR-assisted shooting, smartlink echo, force 4 machine sprite optimising gun) like weapon foci that can also do ranged combat. Mages can have spirits materialise, true, but a machine sprite possessing and optimising a drone packs just as much punch.
Morrigana
To be honest, hacking and technos were a little broken from the getgo. There was nothing really stopping them from brainhacking you from across the planet or making their guns insanely powerful before this. Now, it's just a bit more obvious.

That's the whole problem with the wireless communications setup of this edition. About the only way I can think of to realistically solve it is to remove the wireless.

Oh, and you'll love this: The hacking issue we're facing with this edition? It's the reason why the sys admins at my job won't allow wifi connections to be installed.
JonathanC
I think the hacking rules would be fine if you just ushered in some common-sense network security. As it is now, network security in Shadowrun has basically given up on trying to keep people out, and instead is focused on (maybe) killing them once they get in.
hermit
QUOTE
To be honest, hacking and technos were a little broken from the getgo. There was nothing really stopping them from brainhacking you from across the planet or making their guns insanely powerful before this. Now, it's just a bit more obvious.

Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.

QUOTE
That's the whole problem with the wireless communications setup of this edition. About the only way I can think of to realistically solve it is to remove the wireless.

Heresy! wink.gif

QUOTE
Oh, and you'll love this: The hacking issue we're facing with this edition? It's the reason why the sys admins at my job won't allow wifi connections to be installed.

With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.
Morrigana
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 06:14 PM) *
Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.


You mean they weren't supposed to be able to before? Looks like I was doing something wrong...

QUOTE
Heresy! wink.gif


Now I have "Purge the Heretic!" in a Space Marine voice echoing in my head.

QUOTE
With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.


I would say they're not even up to 90s tech bubble on this one. Maybe very early 90s. Most sys admins I know off were against wifi before it even came out and the reality of it only told them that their suspicions were optimistic. SR basically took what would be a sys admin's worst nightmare and made it how the system runs. SR3's system actually resembles the modern internet enough that it looked like a natural evolution of it.

To be honest, SR4's matrix looks like something the most rank amature when it comes to internet security would come up with. Now, we're not talking about my level of amatureness, and I will be the first to admit you should call tech support before talking to me, but someone who's basic clue about the net is "I go clicky clicky, website pops up, hey it would be cool if I could do this anywhere." The "security" systems of the current Matrix are not even up to the technology level of real world wifi security, and those are viewed as a joke by anyone who has actual knowledge that I talk to. Even more so when you consider it would actually take even less to destroy the current Matrix than SR history has it taking to destroy the internet (the interconnectiveness and openness of it means a virus inserted into the system could easily spread to everything before you'd even have a chance to detect it).

Essentially, I see this current Matrix as lasting maybe ten years in game time before someone takes it out. Then, you can kiss technos, hackers, and millions of other people goodbye. I wouldn't be surprised if SR5 lacked technos completely; I can't think of a realistic justification, even adjusting for the SR world, for them to survive the transition to the next Matrix.

As for them being Neo: The objective of Neo was to help "reset" the Matrix, in effect making him the key to a wipe and reload system. Technos were supposed to be Neo from the very moment they announced how the Matrix for SR3 was going to end.
hobgoblin
iirc, they outlaw blackberries because all data goes thru a third party nation (canada).

and it only really got talked about after france and china made similar noises about getting national servers because of said traffic routing issue...

in SR4, the government will probably be running their own vpn and government issued comlinks (bought from the lowest bidder megacorp).
hermit
QUOTE
I would say they're not even up to 90s tech bubble on this one. Maybe very early 90s. Most sys admins I know off were against wifi before it even came out and the reality of it only told them that their suspicions were optimistic. SR basically took what would be a sys admin's worst nightmare and made it how the system runs. SR3's system actually resembles the modern internet enough that it looked like a natural evolution of it.

To be fair, AR does make sense, though it was possible with the 3rd rules too (tortiose decking + display link/datagoggles). I really dislike lumping in Riggers with Deckers, but meh, that might even be understandable from a practical purpose, as in, streamlining the rules. Though keeping them seperate in teh fluff, with emulations in either directio at a cost, like in SR3, would have been better, of course.

QUOTE
Essentially, I see this current Matrix as lasting maybe ten years in game time before someone takes it out. Then, you can kiss technos, hackers, and millions of other people goodbye. I wouldn't be surprised if SR5 lacked technos completely; I can't think of a realistic justification, even adjusting for the SR world, for them to survive the transition to the next Matrix.

As for them being Neo: The objective of Neo was to help "reset" the Matrix, in effect making him the key to a wipe and reload system. Technos were supposed to be Neo from the very moment they announced how the Matrix for SR3 was going to end.

Yes, I agree here, it really makes sense. Their Neo-ness became much more obvious with unwired, though. But, given how many players seem to dig into the technomancer stuff, I fear they're there to stay.
Morrigana
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 07:25 PM) *
To be fair, AR does make sense, though it was possible with the 3rd rules too (tortiose decking + display link/datagoggles). I really dislike lumping in Riggers with Deckers, but meh, that might even be understandable from a practical purpose, as in, streamlining the rules. Though keeping them seperate in teh fluff, with emulations in either directio at a cost, like in SR3, would have been better, of course.


I agree that AR was possible. It was even possible in a manner similar to how it is with SR4 in SR3. Really, I don't see any reason why they couldn't have done it anyway.

QUOTE
Yes, I agree here, it really makes sense. Their Neo-ness became much more obvious with unwired, though. But, given how many players seem to dig into the technomancer stuff, I fear they're there to stay.


Well... if they do stay around and we essentially go to something like the SR3 Matrix, what's really to stop them from acting as they do now, only in a more limited form? I don't really see any reason they couldn't attempt to hack a computer with just their mind.
hermit
QUOTE
I agree that AR was possible. It was even possible in a manner similar to how it is with SR4 in SR3. Really, I don't see any reason why they couldn't have done it anyway.

Neither do I.

QUOTE
Well... if they do stay around and we essentially go to something like the SR3 Matrix, what's really to stop them from acting as they do now, only in a more limited form? I don't really see any reason they couldn't attempt to hack a computer with just their mind.

They'd need to connect nonwirelessly, like the Otaku did. They'd need a datajack.

QUOTE
iirc, they outlaw blackberries because all data goes thru a third party nation (canada).

For all I know, it's because eavedropping is so damn easy.

QUOTE
in SR4, the government will probably be running their own vpn and government issued comlinks (bought from the lowest bidder megacorp).

Yes. Which would offer exactly zero security.

Of course, it IS possible to make SR4 matrix systems unhackable by rules rape. Like, install a spoof chip into your commlink that spoofs it's access codes every 10 hours,a nd strong-encrypt it with 24 hours. Minimum hacking time 12 hours. If the node is hacked, the hacked codes are already invaluated.

Of course, that's not using the rules as they were intended to be used.
Morrigana
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 07:46 PM) *
They'd need to connect nonwirelessly, like the Otaku did. They'd need a datajack.


Not necessarily; they might need to physically touch something connected to the network and use their own flesh as a form a datajack, but they don't actually need implants if done right.

They would still have to have access to the Matrix, and would still have to go on-site for computer systems which are completely cut off.
hermit
Point, there's this hideously broken power now to hack stuff via skinlink even if device isn't skinlinked.

And no, they wouldn't. Resonance quests can give you access to computers NOT CONNECTED TO ANYTHING AT ALL. However, if you use the above mentioned combination of spoof chip and strong encryption, that wn't help the mancer a lot. But, like I said, that's abusing rules loopholes more than intended by the devs, I think.
Morrigana
Actually, I was suggesting a way to make it a bit more realistic while still keeping the feel. Give them all of the power of a hacker within their head, but give them some of the limitations as well. If a hacker needs to go on-site and hack into the system, so do they.
hermit
Good idea, really. balanced, Technos might be tolerable, much like Otaku were. Too bad that's not what the devs had in mind ...
WeaverMount
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 12:24 PM) *
How exactly does Technomancer brokenness make hackers better characters? I suppose you meant mancers?


No, they're even more broken.

>Mages get no 5 IP.
They just get 4 for basically nothing

>Mages get no metamagic that makes them replacement sammies.
Channeling is far more broken. Then there is combat sense, detect detect enemies, armor, flight, mana barrier, and the ability to defend vs magic.

>Mages cannot brainhack you from across the planet
What would you call ritual Magic mindprobe, alter memory, and influence?

>while making their guns insanely powerful, like weapon foci that can also do ranged combat.
Possession and Analyze device, plus access to detection spells

>Mages can have spirits materialise, true, but a machine sprite possessing and optimising a drone packs just as much punch.
Spirits are more hard core than drones and free, and deploying them is effortless.
Ryu
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 07:54 PM) *
Good idea, really. balanced, Technos might be tolerable, much like Otaku were. Too bad that's not what the devs had in mind ...

The 750 karma-based TM of my GF does pretty well so far, but is also easily challenged. I´m sure that I could build a hacker that could compete.
hermit
QUOTE
What would you call ritual Magic mindprobe, alter memory, and influence?

A whole lot harder.

QUOTE
Spirits are more hard core than drones and free, and deploying them is effortless.

Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.

QUOTE
Possession and Analyze device, plus access to detection spells

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

QUOTE
Channeling is far more broken. Then there is combat sense, detect detect enemies, armor, flight, mana barrier, and the ability to defend vs magic.

Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

QUOTE
No, they're even more broken.

I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?

QUOTE
They just get 4 for basically nothing

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.

QUOTE
The 750 karma-based TM of my GF does pretty well so far, but is also easily challenged. Im sure that I could build a hacker that could compete.

Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.
WeaverMount
Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 03:35 PM) *
>A whole lot harder.
Eh, I see trade offs.

>Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.
They don't you compared a Sprite+Drone to a spirit, and a Sprite+Drone does cost money
QUOTE

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

You actually possess the shooter or get a guardian spirit to possess someone with insane agility. And yes Analyse device does give actual dice.

QUOTE
Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

I this is also pretty incorrect. Channeling let's you effectively add you magic to your physical stats exceeding normal aug max. I don't see how any spirit power you can summon or any spell you know is less versicle. And if ever there is a time when you need to have your spirit do something else that is still an option, so I don't really see that as cutting into there effectiveness.

>I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?
That was text of yours I forgot to delete

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.


Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.

WeaverMount
Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 03:35 PM) *
>A whole lot harder.
Eh, I see trade offs.

>Where do sprites cost money? Drones can be hacked in situ.
They don't you compared a Sprite+Drone to a spirit, and a Sprite+Drone does cost money
QUOTE

Posession won't kill you from 2 kilometers away. An optimised gun will. Detection spells don't help you with shooting. Analyse device doesn't give boni like Optimise does.

You actually possess the shooter or get a guardian spirit to possess someone with insane agility. And yes Analyse device does give actual dice.

QUOTE
Channeling is very broken too, I agree. With the new confusion power, though, mages lost their worst broken power. And still, channeling fails to give the mage as much versatility as a technosam would have. Also, Channeling severely cuts into your spirits' effectiveness.

I this is also pretty incorrect. Channeling let's you effectively add you magic to your physical stats exceeding normal aug max. I don't see how any spirit power you can summon or any spell you know is less versicle. And if ever there is a time when you need to have your spirit do something else that is still an option, so I don't really see that as cutting into there effectiveness.

>I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Mind elaborating, please?
That was text of yours I forgot to delete

I wouldn't call ~10 BP and a near-absolute ban on cyber/bioware nothing.


Try giving her 250 more KArma, and then take a look. Yes, int eh beginning, hackers still can com,pete, but the glass ceiling's been hung very low in 4th.

hobgoblin
i love how "broken" have become the number 1 rpg buzzword...

any rule it seems that someone dont like or dont agree with is "broken"...

whats next, anyone playing the rules as written are "brain damaged"?
hermit
QUOTE
Just to make my point super clear I do not believe that TMs are extra super broken. Mages are pretty bad too. Often identically, and with only marginal differences in places.

I see mancers as marginaly worse, because they get some stuff mages don't, and (for instance) don't have to pay hideous sums for their foci, but can just improvise them.
Morrigana
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 09:11 PM) *
I see mancers as marginaly worse, because they get some stuff mages don't, and (for instance) don't have to pay hideous sums for their foci, but can just improvise them.


I would say technos have a bit of a disadvantage over mages in one area. Mages, IIRC (books not with me right now), only have to pay a set amount to learn a spell and then go on about their business. Technos actually have to pay more to get more powerful forms of their abilities.
hermit
Threading makes up for much,a s do widgets. But yes, there, they are at a slight disadvantage. In all other fields I can think of, though, the mancers win.
The Jake
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 06:14 PM) *
Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.


Heresy! wink.gif


With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.


I roleplay with no less than 2 other people that work in I.T. Oh which one is a sysadmin/network engineer. The other works in network security focusing on infrastructure. I myself focus more on security architecture with an emphasis on infrastructure and application security. So you can imagine the arguments we have with the rules.

Our solution has been to implement architecture/matrix designs that make sense in that kind of environment (and before you ask, yes, wireless can be deployed securely).

However, when technomancers can hack computers that aren't even connected well, things just get plain scary. Having said that they have to be initiates (sorry, submerged) to a fairly high rank to do so. But yep, point taken however.

I do think they're reasonably well balanced with mages however.

- J.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 21 2008, 04:09 PM) *
i love how "broken" have become the number 1 rpg buzzword...

any rule it seems that someone dont like or dont agree with is "broken"...

whats next, anyone playing the rules as written are "brain damaged"?


Thanks for posting this. I would like to see "broken" retain at least a little bit of a technical meaning, and i should be more conscious how I use it. That said if you make the assumption that what shadowrun should be is a game about a team of specialists then mage can quickly become broken as they take the focus away from that dynamic.
hobgoblin
one thing one should maybe note on the skinlink echo, it says "while jammed", not "while off".

still, the fluff use of said echo seems to imply that it can be used on devices that do not have a wireless connection at all (unless said maglock is supposed to have signal 0, not wireless off).
hermit
IIRC, it specifically said that Echo allows to hack devices that aren't even wireless enabled to begin with.

Also, I mean broken as in broken - not damaged, not unbalanced, but far beyond that. SR4 mages go far down that path too, though, you're right.
hobgoblin
nope, it says that it can work with devices that are not skinlink enabled, not exactly the same thing...
Malachi
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 21 2008, 01:51 PM) *
To be honest, SR4's matrix looks like something the most rank amature when it comes to internet security would come up with. Now, we're not talking about my level of amatureness, and I will be the first to admit you should call tech support before talking to me, but someone who's basic clue about the net is "I go clicky clicky, website pops up, hey it would be cool if I could do this anywhere." The "security" systems of the current Matrix are not even up to the technology level of real world wifi security, and those are viewed as a joke by anyone who has actual knowledge that I talk to. Even more so when you consider it would actually take even less to destroy the current Matrix than SR history has it taking to destroy the internet (the interconnectiveness and openness of it means a virus inserted into the system could easily spread to everything before you'd even have a chance to detect it).

SR network architects are not stupid. When the fluff in SR4 state that "everything is connected to everything" I read that to mean devices that are designed to be portals, and devices left in "default" (Active) mode by their (ignorant) owners. There are some very simple things that can be done to make their networks more secure. For example: tweaking the Signal range of devices so that they are only in range of where they need to be accessed, or having more sensitive devices be Slaved to a central node.
hobgoblin
it seems at times as if the SR4 books are written by a shadowrunner looking in on the joe wageslave world, rather then written by a shadowrunner focusing on his own world, like the earlier books did.

as such it gives examples of whats expected of joe wageslave, and thereby gives hints as to how shadowrunners can blend in.

a wolf in sheeps clothing, i guess the phrase is wink.gif
Morrigana
QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 21 2008, 03:44 PM) *
SR network architects are not stupid. When the fluff in SR4 state that "everything is connected to everything" I read that to mean devices that are designed to be portals, and devices left in "default" (Active) mode by their (ignorant) owners. There are some very simple things that can be done to make their networks more secure. For example: tweaking the Signal range of devices so that they are only in range of where they need to be accessed, or having more sensitive devices be Slaved to a central node.


The part I highlighted is something that used to be bypassed all of the time in SR. It shouldn't be very difficult for any hacker who's been on the Matrix for more than 5 years to bypass. As for the second item: I'm pretty sure that also used to be bypassed all of the time in SR. As part of the old Matrix.

In effect, what you're describing so far is going back to the SR3 Matrix. Why not take it all of the way and drop the wireless part?

And I'd argue you just disproved your first sentence.
KCKitsune
Quick question that is slightly off topic: If a TM has cybereyes &/or cyberears, can he use the built-in recorder to store the data he wants to steal?
hermit
He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.
Cain
I don't have the time to calculate this out myself, but isn't the submersion + Resonance increase costs rather dramatic? Enough so that by the time the otaku gains enough karma to get all those stupidly overpowered echoes, the game is probably over?

I recall that someone-- Frank Trollman?-- gave out a number of 500 karma or so that would be needed for an otaku to surpass a decker. But that was before Unwired, so I don't know how things work out now.
The Jake
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 22 2008, 01:48 AM) *
He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.


I only thought that applied to the datajack... ?

- J.
Cain
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 21 2008, 07:26 PM) *
I only thought that applied to the datajack... ?

No, anything with a device rating can be subscribed to a network and can store unlimited data. Which is why you hear so many jokes about your underwear being wireless.
The Jake
QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 22 2008, 04:46 AM) *
No, anything with a device rating can be subscribed to a network and can store unlimited data. Which is why you hear so many jokes about your underwear being wireless.


Can someone please provide a page reference and quote? That is just such nonsense it is just not even funny. Sometimes I really hate it when non-technical people's rudimentary understanding of technology worms its way into fiction. Stuff like this is the stuff that us technical folk have to write out of the rules because of the lack of thought put in. Don't even get me started on encryption...

I do vaguely recall this being stated of datajacks and headware (in lieu of H/w memory) but my rule of thumb is datajacks and chipjacks have unlimited storage but other devices only have enough to store their own code. This would mean players can use datajacks (or commlinks) for downloading data. However I would still house rule that some situations may call for dedicated external storage, however this would be more for a plot device more than anything else. That to me is the more sensible approach (instead of "I'll just download all of Deus' code into my cybereye memory. Cheers").

- J.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 07:48 PM) *
He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.


WAAAAAAY too expensive Essence wise. A Eye recorder/Ear Recorder only costs .2 Essence and 2500 nuyen.gif and that's if you just get those mods.
Morrigana
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 21 2008, 10:17 PM) *
Can someone please provide a page reference and quote? That is just such nonsense it is just not even funny. Sometimes I really hate it when non-technical people's rudimentary understanding of technology worms its way into fiction. Stuff like this is the stuff that us technical folk have to write out of the rules because of the lack of thought put in. Don't even get me started on encryption...


QUOTE (Page 212)
Major advances in computer storage memory and data compression technologies by 2070 allow vast amounts of information to be stored in relatively minute spaces. Storage memory has become so large and efficient that, for the most part, gamemasters and players can assume that characters have enough storage memory on any particular device to meet their needs, so there is no need to micromanage file sizes and available memory. The gamemaster can, of course, rule in some situations that a particular device is full or does not have the capacity needed to store something new, though this should be reserved for either small devices and/or massively large file collections. The ease and availability of wireless networking, however, means that even in cases like this, the character can quickly transfer the file to any number of remote storage devices.


In short: I could make 50,000,000 copies of Deus and store them in my toothbrush under RAW. I could store the entire Library of Congress in an RFID tag in my socks. If you don't like that, you have to houserule that I can't.
The Jake
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 22 2008, 05:42 AM) *
In short: I could make 50,000,000 copies of Deus and store them in my toothbrush under RAW. I could store the entire Library of Congress in an RFID tag in my socks. If you don't like that, you have to houserule that I can't.


Ahh thankyou kindly.

I do recall reading that now although I had an entirely different interpretation. I interpreted the "remote storage devices" bit to be "appropriate offline storage device". This could be optical chip, commlink, headware memory in a datajack, etc. Not "random RFID chip embedded to my left sock".

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.
Cain
QUOTE
I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

I think it's pretty clear. Anything with a Device rating has unlimited storage memory. Just about everything has a Device rating. So, you can store near-infinite amounts of data in a RFID tag in your sock, especially since RFID tags have full Matrix attributes.
Glyph
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 22 2008, 01:55 AM) *
YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.

QUOTE (Page 212)
The gamemaster can, of course, rule in some situations that a particular device is full or does not have the capacity needed to store something new, though this should be reserved for either small devices and/or massively large file collections.

smile.gif
Morrigana
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 22 2008, 01:55 AM) *
Ahh thankyou kindly.

I do recall reading that now although I had an entirely different interpretation. I interpreted the "remote storage devices" bit to be "appropriate offline storage device". This could be optical chip, commlink, headware memory in a datajack, etc. Not "random RFID chip embedded to my left sock".

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.


The problem isn't the "remote storage devices" bit, but the "gamemasters and players can assume that characters have enough storage memory on any particular device to meet their needs" bit. Especially the "any particular device" part. Whatever they intended I cannot guess from that; at best, I figure they just wanted to do away with program sizes rather than bother with updating the rules on them. Instead, they've created the absurd situation where a player can legitimately argue that his underwear has enough storage space to carry Deus based upon how the rules are written.

It's one of several areas where an attempt at simplification turned out badly.

Glyph- The part you posted is where they say, "If you don't like it, house rule it." While the ability to make that ruling is RAW, the ruling itself is still a houserule.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012