Technomancer Echoes, OMFG... Options

[Morrigana]

I see mancers as marginaly worse, because they get some stuff mages don't, and (for instance) don't have to pay hideous sums for their foci, but can just improvise them.

I would say technos have a bit of a disadvantage over mages in one area. Mages, IIRC (books not with me right now), only have to pay a set amount to learn a spell and then go on about their business. Technos actually have to pay more to get more powerful forms of their abilities.

[hermit]

Threading makes up for much,a s do widgets. But yes, there, they are at a slight disadvantage. In all other fields I can think of, though, the mancers win.

[The Jake]

Yes, but now, they can also kick your ass in a bar brawl.


Heresy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


With most government agencies outlawing blackberries and stuff, it looks like SR is trailing behind the times, this time being stuck in the late 90s tech bubble. Also, bringing back SR1's system maps wasn't the smartest move. Still, it plays reasonably well, if you suspend your disbelief thoroughly and tiotally, I guess ... well, aside from how Technos are annoyingly broken.

My impression was that Technos are supposed to be Neo. Like, literally.

I roleplay with no less than 2 other people that work in I.T. Oh which one is a sysadmin/network engineer. The other works in network security focusing on infrastructure. I myself focus more on security architecture with an emphasis on infrastructure and application security. So you can imagine the arguments we have with the rules.

Our solution has been to implement architecture/matrix designs that make sense in that kind of environment (and before you ask, yes, wireless can be deployed securely).

However, when technomancers can hack computers that aren't even connected well, things just get plain scary. Having said that they have to be initiates (sorry, submerged) to a fairly high rank to do so. But yep, point taken however.

I do think they're reasonably well balanced with mages however.

- J.

[WeaverMount]

i love how "broken" have become the number 1 rpg buzzword...

any rule it seems that someone dont like or dont agree with is "broken"...

whats next, anyone playing the rules as written are "brain damaged"?

Thanks for posting this. I would like to see "broken" retain at least a little bit of a technical meaning, and i should be more conscious how I use it. That said if you make the assumption that what shadowrun should be is a game about a team of specialists then mage can quickly become broken as they take the focus away from that dynamic.

[hobgoblin]

one thing one should maybe note on the skinlink echo, it says "while jammed", not "while off".

still, the fluff use of said echo seems to imply that it can be used on devices that do not have a wireless connection at all (unless said maglock is supposed to have signal 0, not wireless off).

[hermit]

IIRC, it specifically said that Echo allows to hack devices that aren't even wireless enabled to begin with.

Also, I mean broken as in broken - not damaged, not unbalanced, but far beyond that. SR4 mages go far down that path too, though, you're right.

[hobgoblin]

nope, it says that it can work with devices that are not skinlink enabled, not exactly the same thing...

[Malachi]

To be honest, SR4's matrix looks like something the most rank amature when it comes to internet security would come up with. Now, we're not talking about my level of amatureness, and I will be the first to admit you should call tech support before talking to me, but someone who's basic clue about the net is "I go clicky clicky, website pops up, hey it would be cool if I could do this anywhere." The "security" systems of the current Matrix are not even up to the technology level of real world wifi security, and those are viewed as a joke by anyone who has actual knowledge that I talk to. Even more so when you consider it would actually take even less to destroy the current Matrix than SR history has it taking to destroy the internet (the interconnectiveness and openness of it means a virus inserted into the system could easily spread to everything before you'd even have a chance to detect it).

SR network architects are not stupid. When the fluff in SR4 state that "everything is connected to everything" I read that to mean devices that are designed to be portals, and devices left in "default" (Active) mode by their (ignorant) owners. There are some very simple things that can be done to make their networks more secure. For example: tweaking the Signal range of devices so that they are only in range of where they need to be accessed, or having more sensitive devices be Slaved to a central node.

[hobgoblin]

it seems at times as if the SR4 books are written by a shadowrunner looking in on the joe wageslave world, rather then written by a shadowrunner focusing on his own world, like the earlier books did.

as such it gives examples of whats expected of joe wageslave, and thereby gives hints as to how shadowrunners can blend in.

a wolf in sheeps clothing, i guess the phrase is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Morrigana]

SR network architects are not stupid. When the fluff in SR4 state that "everything is connected to everything" I read that to mean devices that are designed to be portals, and devices left in "default" (Active) mode by their (ignorant) owners. There are some very simple things that can be done to make their networks more secure. For example: tweaking the Signal range of devices so that they are only in range of where they need to be accessed, or having more sensitive devices be Slaved to a central node.

The part I highlighted is something that used to be bypassed all of the time in SR. It shouldn't be very difficult for any hacker who's been on the Matrix for more than 5 years to bypass. As for the second item: I'm pretty sure that also used to be bypassed all of the time in SR. As part of the old Matrix.

In effect, what you're describing so far is going back to the SR3 Matrix. Why not take it all of the way and drop the wireless part?

And I'd argue you just disproved your first sentence.

[KCKitsune]

Quick question that is slightly off topic: If a TM has cybereyes &/or cyberears, can he use the built-in recorder to store the data he wants to steal?

[hermit]

He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.

[Cain]

I don't have the time to calculate this out myself, but isn't the submersion + Resonance increase costs rather dramatic? Enough so that by the time the otaku gains enough karma to get all those stupidly overpowered echoes, the game is probably over?

I recall that someone-- Frank Trollman?-- gave out a number of 500 karma or so that would be needed for an otaku to surpass a decker. But that was before Unwired, so I don't know how things work out now.

[The Jake]

He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.

I only thought that applied to the datajack... ?

- J.

[Cain]

I only thought that applied to the datajack... ?

No, anything with a device rating can be subscribed to a network and can store unlimited data. Which is why you hear so many jokes about your underwear being wireless.

[The Jake]

No, anything with a device rating can be subscribed to a network and can store unlimited data. Which is why you hear so many jokes about your underwear being wireless.

Can someone please provide a page reference and quote? That is just such nonsense it is just not even funny. Sometimes I really hate it when non-technical people's rudimentary understanding of technology worms its way into fiction. Stuff like this is the stuff that us technical folk have to write out of the rules because of the lack of thought put in. Don't even get me started on encryption...

I do vaguely recall this being stated of datajacks and headware (in lieu of H/w memory) but my rule of thumb is datajacks and chipjacks have unlimited storage but other devices only have enough to store their own code. This would mean players can use datajacks (or commlinks) for downloading data. However I would still house rule that some situations may call for dedicated external storage, however this would be more for a plot device more than anything else. That to me is the more sensible approach (instead of "I'll just download all of Deus' code into my cybereye memory. Cheers").

- J.

[KCKitsune]

He can use any cybernetic implant as a data storage (I recommend an encephalon), since all devices have by default limitless storage space.

WAAAAAAY too expensive Essence wise. A Eye recorder/Ear Recorder only costs .2 Essence and 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and that's if you just get those mods.

[Morrigana]

Can someone please provide a page reference and quote? That is just such nonsense it is just not even funny. Sometimes I really hate it when non-technical people's rudimentary understanding of technology worms its way into fiction. Stuff like this is the stuff that us technical folk have to write out of the rules because of the lack of thought put in. Don't even get me started on encryption...

Major advances in computer storage memory and data compression technologies by 2070 allow vast amounts of information to be stored in relatively minute spaces. Storage memory has become so large and efficient that, for the most part, gamemasters and players can assume that characters have enough storage memory on any particular device to meet their needs, so there is no need to micromanage file sizes and available memory. The gamemaster can, of course, rule in some situations that a particular device is full or does not have the capacity needed to store something new, though this should be reserved for either small devices and/or massively large file collections. The ease and availability of wireless networking, however, means that even in cases like this, the character can quickly transfer the file to any number of remote storage devices.

In short: I could make 50,000,000 copies of Deus and store them in my toothbrush under RAW. I could store the entire Library of Congress in an RFID tag in my socks. If you don't like that, you have to houserule that I can't.

[The Jake]

In short: I could make 50,000,000 copies of Deus and store them in my toothbrush under RAW. I could store the entire Library of Congress in an RFID tag in my socks. If you don't like that, you have to houserule that I can't.

Ahh thankyou kindly.

I do recall reading that now although I had an entirely different interpretation. I interpreted the "remote storage devices" bit to be "appropriate offline storage device". This could be optical chip, commlink, headware memory in a datajack, etc. Not "random RFID chip embedded to my left sock".

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.

[Cain]

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

I think it's pretty clear. Anything with a Device rating has unlimited storage memory. Just about everything has a Device rating. So, you can store near-infinite amounts of data in a RFID tag in your sock, especially since RFID tags have full Matrix attributes.

[Glyph]

YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.

The gamemaster can, of course, rule in some situations that a particular device is full or does not have the capacity needed to store something new, though this should be reserved for either small devices and/or massively large file collections.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Morrigana]

Ahh thankyou kindly.

I do recall reading that now although I had an entirely different interpretation. I interpreted the "remote storage devices" bit to be "appropriate offline storage device". This could be optical chip, commlink, headware memory in a datajack, etc. Not "random RFID chip embedded to my left sock".

I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that would have intended it the same way. Even by RAW, it is highly debatable that is what was stated, let alone intended.

YMMV may vary however. But if a player tried to suggest downloading Deus into his underwear, I'd reach across the table and swat him with the BBB.

- J.

The problem isn't the "remote storage devices" bit, but the "gamemasters and players can assume that characters have enough storage memory on any particular device to meet their needs" bit. Especially the "any particular device" part. Whatever they intended I cannot guess from that; at best, I figure they just wanted to do away with program sizes rather than bother with updating the rules on them. Instead, they've created the absurd situation where a player can legitimately argue that his underwear has enough storage space to carry Deus based upon how the rules are written.

It's one of several areas where an attempt at simplification turned out badly.

Glyph- The part you posted is where they say, "If you don't like it, house rule it." While the ability to make that ruling is RAW, the ruling itself is still a houserule.