Japanese culture, let the Xenophiobia run Options

[Daddy's Litt...]

In a now closed thread about a certain intolerant group, some poster said the game designers had much hyped up, amoung others, Japanese xenophobia from the 1980's.

Much as Ihate to admit it, this is NOT just something from the 1980's. It is current now in truly ugly ways and the distaste towards metas is really right on the beam. Last year a shop keeper was in court for failing to serve an African American. His successful defense was "I am not a racist, I just do not like black people."

I could give many more RL examples but this forum is for SR and what I want to say is that this stuff is deeply ingrained in the culture and even the Emperor himself saying "metas are ok" is not going to change that. That's why most of my IC posts here are screamingly racist to fit in that. There could be some great runs set up around the throne or it's advisors to try an 'correct' things. Backers who will support anti-meta polocies would find many devoted followers.

IC: Metas aren't evil but they would be much better off among their own kind instead of having to interact regularly with normal people who would only serve to remind them of their differences.

[hermit]

IC: Seperate but unequal, eh? Would the 60s race segregation in the US south be a good model (one most posters here propably are more familiar with)?

However, 80s Cyberpunk WAS heavily anti-japanese in it's own right (and the entire 80s were very afraid of Japan, especially in the US, but in Europe too). That's what appears hyped up from today's perspective, which views Japan more as the origin of popular parts of youth culture, playing very much down what was, back then, propably played up in a paranoid craze about Japan's economic rise to power.

[Cang]

As a person who lived in Japan, i can say that they are the nicest and most helpful and (i hate saying this word) honorable culture i have ever lived with. The would drop anything to help you and would do it with a smile. I had a friend who missed his train stop and had no money to go home. A family took him in, let him stay the night, and payed for his train ride home. On the other hand they have huge case of Xenophobia there and they prefer to keep Japan Japanese and foreigners and non Japanese are not allowed in many stores and bars. I have been personally rejected from many places. It's not so much of hate but a sense of superiority (which i suppose attracts many people to the culture in the first place). As a Brazilian American i know many Brazilians of Japanese decent. (Brazil has the largest Japanese population outside of Japan). When some of those children of the Japanese migrants decided to move back (being still full blooded Japanese and speaking the language) they were still treated as foreigners and could only get jobs with the other migrants in slaughter houses, canning factories and other such places. I am not advacating any side or opinions, this is what i know as fact from first and second hand experience. But what country doesn't have problems with xenophobia and the like. I mean the US is trying to build a giant wall on the southern border but non on the northern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

PS. i had a cousin come in from Canada. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larme]

I actually had the opposite impression -- 80's cyberpunk belies something of an obsession with Japanese culture. Why else would ninjas and samurais be the coolest thing since giant sunglasses?

I think the general feeling in the 80's was that it wasn't a question of if the Japanese would take over the world, it was when. Sure, there were some people who hated Japan for having a boom during the 80's. But IMO, writers like Gibson and the Shadowrun team were simply doing what sci-fi authors do: imagining the future. If we accept the fact that Japan will become the world's dominant economic power, the next step is to write about what the future will be like when they control everything.

One thing I've noticed is that some people believe that portraying the real oddities of Japanese culture is racist -- by pointing to silly things that happen in Japan, we're somehow saying that the Japanese are silly or backwards. Of course, there's a definite double standard there; if you go to some kind of "hillbilly olympics" event and film rural Americans competing in events like doing belly flops into mud, you're not racist, you're a social commentator. Hell, even if you call them "white trash" and imply that their gene pool is a cesspit of incest, you probably won't be called a racist because lots of people will say "it isn't racist if it's true." The fact is, Japanese culture can be pretty weird to a westerner, and talking about the differences between cultures isn't racist, it's just a natural part of human curiosity.

[hermit]

But what country doesn't have problems with xenophobia and the like. I mean the US is trying to build a giant wall on the southern border but non on the northern.

That's seriously being considered? I thought this was just some insane rambling by some Texan backwater hicks the Bushies played up to get their votes?

I think the general feeling in the 80's was that it wasn't a question of if the Japanese would take over the world, it was when.

That sums it up.

Hell, even if you call the "white trash" and imply that their gene pool is a cesspit of incest, you probably won't be called a racist because lots of people will say "it isn't racist if it's true."

It isn't racist if you're white, plain and simple. Check what all the anti-racism people have to say about Simbabwe if you don't believe me.

[ornot]

I rather liked Japan when I visited, and the Japanese were very polite and helpful. Of course, I was in the touristy parts of Tokyo, for the most part. However welcoming they were, however, I still got an impression that I was considered out of place.

As far as SR goes, the cyberpunk trope of a powerful Japan is not a problem for me. It's nice and dystopian, afterall. That's not to say that all Japanese should be played as overt racists or bigots. There will be a spectrum of attitudes, ranging from the I wish they were all dead to I wish they weren't around here to I wish they didn't exist! I would never have an SR sarariman compromise his own honour by an overt gesture of disgust such as spitting at a troll. More likely they'd ignore them and pretend they weren't there.

[kzt]

That's seriously being considered? I thought this was just some insane rambling by some Texan backwater hicks the Bushies played up to get their votes?

You've never lived on on the border, have you?

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsro...t/fence_map.pdf

[Morrigana]

That's seriously being considered? I thought this was just some insane rambling by some Texan backwater hicks the Bushies played up to get their votes?

Last time I checked, they were already building it.

Honestly, the U.S. is no better than Japan when it comes to these things, and in some cases is far worse. Immigrants to Japan can at least accept that the population is likely to be polite to them, even if feeling superior, while those to the U.S. have to accept that not only will the natives feel superior to them, but that some of the natives may try to scare them off, hurt them, or worse. And then there's all of the complaints about "Mexicans stealing our jobs," which is part of what prompted that wall to begin with.

Part of the reason why I think cyberpunk was so successful in the U.S. is a small amount of xenophobia. Americans are, as a societal group, not the most tolerant bunch. And the government does like to sometimes prey on that tendency. All SR did was give another focus to the xenophobia: Metahumans. Then the worst things humans have done to each other, and even attitudes some still display today, can be played out without the game being accused of promoting racism.

It isn't racist if you're white, plain and simple. Check what all the anti-racism people have to say about Simbabwe if you don't believe me.

You don't even need to go that far. U.S. court cases within the past couple of decades have had the best examples of it scattered throughout. I'd go further, but to be honest, it's a subject that would very likely cause a flamewar. But, the issue of racism within the U.S. is far from over... in part because there are people on both sides who won't let it die.

[Snow_Fox]

Japan is probably the only non-european based culture that was able to hold it's own with thecolonial powers and the first non-white nation to be treated as an equal in treaties. They have a reason to be proud of their culture.

That having been said a level of fear seems to have crept in. While the west embraces the melting pot hteory Japan seems to fear that anything new mixed in that cannot be controled is a threat to them. This drive to controlcan be translated into the drive of the AAA corps.

The one thing that seems a creation is the military hardness. From what I read much of Japan is rabidly fearful of the military (except for the right fringe) I guess having a couple of atomic bombs dropped on you will do that to a country.

[Ancient History]

So, um...did anybody read Corporate Enclaves, and what did they think of our latest take on it?

[Snow_Fox]

poor AH, gives reassuring hug. yes I have it, I just haven't had a chance to read it yet. I think we're sharing RL expeirences and what we bring to the game.

DLN is a New Yorker but her parents are Japanese and her grand parents are really cool. DLN herself manages to look gracious and elegant as all get out in a kimono.

[kzt]

The one thing that seems a creation is the military hardness. From what I read much of Japan is rabidly fearful of the military (except for the right fringe) I guess having a couple of atomic bombs dropped on you will do that to a country.

There is a fringe that is rabidly afraid. I don't think that is an accurate description of most of the country.

The interesting thing is that the Japanese went from being considered a western military to being the insane fanatics in China and WW2 in about 20 years. It's quite an amazing transformation. Given that it's not a huge leap to see the Japanese becoming much more militarized. It's still a pretty lame concept, but it isn't insane.

[AngelisStorm]

My girlfriend was a highschool exchange student a few years ago in Japan. While she loves the culture and plans on going back this summer as a college student, all of her stories are tinged with the fact she was treated as an outsider. Everyone was super polite to her, and most were nice, but she always got the vibe she was an outsider.

So I'll quasy repeat what I said in the other post. Is it really so far out there for Japan to switch back to an Imperialistic power? Japan was a isoliationist society with a strong warrior tradition. They went military mode and did a good job at it until we managed to stomp them. They then turned that same drive towards capitalism, which they excell at. If they right motivators were put in place, would it really be unthinkable for them to switch back the other direction? Especially considering the hostile countries that are relatively nearby, and with the world destabalizing.

Hermit... seriously? The Texans were already going to vote for their govenor. He didn't need to cater to them.

And I think some folks are missing the point. Being xenophobic to outside cultures is a little different than having hundreds of thousands of individuals illegally entering your country and abusing the system set up to protect it's citizens.

[Adarael]

I should also like to point out that "xenophobia" and "deporting all metahumans & most non-Japanese to penal/extermination camps" are also markedly different. I could say "I don't trust Finns" or something and be Xenophobic. Saying "All Finns need to be put in concentration camps" is a little different.

[Heath Robinson]

I should also like to point out that "xenophobia" and "deporting all metahumans & most non-Japanese to penal/extermination camps" are also markedly different. I could say "I don't trust Finns" or something and be Xenophobic. Saying "All Finns need to be put in concentration camps" is a little different.

It's part of the polite social fiction that uneducated people want to do bad things to black people because they're afraid of them.

[hobgoblin]

Part of the reason why I think cyberpunk was so successful in the U.S.

Hell, i would claim cyberpunk is very much an American construct...

William Gibson: American born, living in Canada...
Neal Stephenson: American
Bruce Sterling: American

do i need to continue?

still, one could claim that cyberpunk is basically western with microchips.

if so, then can one claim that cyberpunk anime is basically samurai stories with guns?

i think the really big diff between japan and "the west" is this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_(Japanese)

[Daddy's Litt...]

I should also like to point out that "xenophobia" and "deporting all metahumans & most non-Japanese to penal/extermination camps" are also markedly different. I could say "I don't trust Finns" or something and be Xenophobic. Saying "All Finns need to be put in concentration camps" is a little different.

Sure, but it is not such a big leap from "I do not trust all Finns" to "I do not want to serve any in my shop" and from there to 'Since so many people treat them badly, would they not be happier in a special place of their own? A place where they are protected from people who do not like them?"

In RL Japan today there is a growing need for non-japanese workers in the health care field. There are qualified nurses in the Philipines and Malaysia willing to learn Japanese, adopt Japanese names etc to blend in but they are still rejected because they are not Japanese. The reasons given by the Japanese shouldn't be heard coming from a so called advanced people. But they see nothing wrong with not wanting 'strangers' because they look different. One woman was quoted as saying she looks at different people and does not know how they think. This is unfortunately typical. My father lost a life long friend because he approved me marrying a white man.

So with that as the RL base, the idea that 2070 Japanese are gonig to accept Oni and the rest in their midst, just because the emperor said so, will be a hard fight.

[Yoan]

The reasons given by the Japanese should be inheard of coming from a so called advanced people. But they see nothing wrong with not wanting 'strangers' because they look differnet.

You're both indoctrinated, just in different ways. What's the problem?

[Chrysalis]

I should also like to point out that "xenophobia" and "deporting all metahumans & most non-Japanese to penal/extermination camps" are also markedly different. I could say "I don't trust Finns" or something and be Xenophobic. Saying "All Finns need to be put in concentration camps" is a little different.

Well, I can say about Finns is this is that for the past 50 years they have been isolated from any kind of influx of culture. Finland went from a rural culture to an urban one in the 1960s. Oulu still empties for Christmas. Finland only had its first wave of immigrants in the 1990s. I was born in Finland, but I don't look Finnish, behave Finnish, and my native language is English. For the rest of my life I will be a foreigner in Finland. Finland has only been a real member of Europe for the past ten years (1995 joining the EU) and an aware country of the world since 1998 (with the advent of widespread internet usage).

Finland is not xenophobic, but there are huge generation divides even between my generation and my those who are five or ten years younger than me. We are going through nationwide culture change as abrupt and immense as in the 1960s.

[Cang]

Well it wasn't too long ago in Japan (A few years ago) when the government wanted to teach "pride in national culture and history" in Japanese schools. The school teachers themselves got together and fought the plan to the bone. They new to well what too much national pride can bring. It's a thin line between a patriot and a bigot, and the Japanese walk very much on it.

As a person not born in the united states i am happy (however this might come out) that i am white because i get alot less problems then some of my cousins who are much darker then i. On the other hand i know if my name was Mr. Tanaka and i spoke perfect Japanese i would still have a hard time as a foreigner in Japan. But then again like Chrysalis said about Finland, Japan has a growing youth culture that rejects the thinking of the older generations. So maybe there is hope for the Japanese fan boy to go to Japan and yell Yatta and Kawaii and not be looked on as strange.... but i doubt it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Daddy's Litt...]

The other side of the teachers issue was that some refused to even stand as a sign of respect when the national antheme was played and objected to the national flag being hung in school rooms. That is taking it too far the other way.

That is why I think Japanese militarism in SR is a little over the top. I can understand not wanting to recreate the military state that led to Hiroshima, but too often the Japanese opposition goes way over the other way. Serving military officers on their way to the Japanese version of the Pentagon have to arrive in civilian clothes and then change at work into uniforms to avoid the image of military having a role in government. At the other end of the spectrum there are hard core right wingers who deny Japan was wrong in WW2 and only fought a defensive war. reading their arguments just makes me angry.

[kzt]

Different cultures really ARE different. The "Anglosphere" of the US, UK, Australia, and Canada are generally similar, but there are still significant differences. "The West" has certain shared traditions and culture, but Italy isn't the US isn't France. Japan isn't a western country, it just plays one on TV. It's the most developed non-western country and is economically more powerful and advanced than many western countries, but Japan is as about as different from the West as Saudi Arabia, Kenya or China.

[Heath Robinson]

The other side of the teachers issue was that some refused to even stand as a sign of respect when the national antheme was played and objected to the national flag being hung in school rooms. That is taking it too far the other way.

I wouldn't say so.

[Larme]

Some of the greatest gains in American freedom have come from annoying people who refused to play ball! Freedom of speech was advanced by Jehovah's Witnesses whose religion forbade them to salute the flag, and a jackass who wore a jacket with the word "fuck" to court, and other assorted misfits. I think it's fine to refuse to be patriotic, because so-called "patriotism" is usually just empty words and gesture. People on George W. Bush's side will tell you that, as long as you salute the flag and sing the National Anthem, you're a patriot. It doesn't matter if you hate your neighbor for being different, or if you don't believe in the U.S. Constitution and want to make the U.S. into a Christian theocracy. Some pretty piece of brightly colored cloth is more important than the founding principles of the nation, right?

Um, so trying to tie it back into on-topic... I think that those Japanese kids have the right idea, sticking it to the man for the sake of sticking it to the man. Society advances towards justice by increasing freedom, and the freedom to sit or stand, salute or not salute when you please is one of the most basic. As long as someone respects the law and doesn't commit treason, as long as they stay in the country and work to make it a better place, they're just as much patriots as anyone who has a flag out on his lawn -- maybe moreso, if the flag-guy wants to take away his neighbor's freedom.

[Daddy's Litt...]

This risks going off topic. Please keep it focused on SR, but it was not kids, but teachers who refused. I was raised to be polite, I may not sing along with or feel respect for "O'Canada" at a sporting event, but I stand out of repsect for the people to whom it is important.

One thing SR has not touched on, but I wonder if it should not, is racism from the Japanese corps in advancement. People often talk in RL about how much wealth is ammassed in the US with a population of 'only' 300 million, but Japan has the 2nd largest economy with a population of only around 120 million. This means an even greater degree of wealth amassed in an even smaller area. You saw the outburst of that in the 1980's and 90's when Japan started buying trophy sites, like Rockefeller ter and pissing people off.