In a now closed thread about a certain intolerant group, some poster said the game designers had much hyped up, amoung others, Japanese xenophobia from the 1980's.

Much as Ihate to admit it, this is NOT just something from the 1980's. It is current now in truly ugly ways and the distaste towards metas is really right on the beam. Last year a shop keeper was in court for failing to serve an African American. His successful defense was "I am not a racist, I just do not like black people."

I could give many more RL examples but this forum is for SR and what I want to say is that this stuff is deeply ingrained in the culture and even the Emperor himself saying "metas are ok" is not going to change that. That's why most of my IC posts here are screamingly racist to fit in that. There could be some great runs set up around the throne or it's advisors to try an 'correct' things. Backers who will support anti-meta polocies would find many devoted followers.

IC: Metas aren't evil but they would be much better off among their own kind instead of having to interact regularly with normal people who would only serve to remind them of their differences.

IC: Seperate but unequal, eh? Would the 60s race segregation in the US south be a good model (one most posters here propably are more familiar with)?

However, 80s Cyberpunk WAS heavily anti-japanese in it's own right (and the entire 80s were very afraid of Japan, especially in the US, but in Europe too). That's what appears hyped up from today's perspective, which views Japan more as the origin of popular parts of youth culture, playing very much down what was, back then, propably played up in a paranoid craze about Japan's economic rise to power.

As a person who lived in Japan, i can say that they are the nicest and most helpful and (i hate saying this word) honorable culture i have ever lived with. The would drop anything to help you and would do it with a smile. I had a friend who missed his train stop and had no money to go home. A family took him in, let him stay the night, and payed for his train ride home. On the other hand they have huge case of Xenophobia there and they prefer to keep Japan Japanese and foreigners and non Japanese are not allowed in many stores and bars. I have been personally rejected from many places. It's not so much of hate but a sense of superiority (which i suppose attracts many people to the culture in the first place). As a Brazilian American i know many Brazilians of Japanese decent. (Brazil has the largest Japanese population outside of Japan). When some of those children of the Japanese migrants decided to move back (being still full blooded Japanese and speaking the language) they were still treated as foreigners and could only get jobs with the other migrants in slaughter houses, canning factories and other such places. I am not advacating any side or opinions, this is what i know as fact from first and second hand experience. But what country doesn't have problems with xenophobia and the like. I mean the US is trying to build a giant wall on the southern border but non on the northern.

PS. i had a cousin come in from Canada.

I actually had the opposite impression -- 80's cyberpunk belies something of an obsession with Japanese culture. Why else would ninjas and samurais be the coolest thing since giant sunglasses?

I think the general feeling in the 80's was that it wasn't a question of if the Japanese would take over the world, it was when. Sure, there were some people who hated Japan for having a boom during the 80's. But IMO, writers like Gibson and the Shadowrun team were simply doing what sci-fi authors do: imagining the future. If we accept the fact that Japan will become the world's dominant economic power, the next step is to write about what the future will be like when they control everything.

One thing I've noticed is that some people believe that portraying the real oddities of Japanese culture is racist -- by pointing to silly things that happen in Japan, we're somehow saying that the Japanese are silly or backwards. Of course, there's a definite double standard there; if you go to some kind of "hillbilly olympics" event and film rural Americans competing in events like doing belly flops into mud, you're not racist, you're a social commentator. Hell, even if you call them "white trash" and imply that their gene pool is a cesspit of incest, you probably won't be called a racist because lots of people will say "it isn't racist if it's true." The fact is, Japanese culture can be pretty weird to a westerner, and talking about the differences between cultures isn't racist, it's just a natural part of human curiosity.

That's seriously being considered? I thought this was just some insane rambling by some Texan backwater hicks the Bushies played up to get their votes?


That sums it up.


It isn't racist if you're white, plain and simple. Check what all the anti-racism people have to say about Simbabwe if you don't believe me.

I rather liked Japan when I visited, and the Japanese were very polite and helpful. Of course, I was in the touristy parts of Tokyo, for the most part. However welcoming they were, however, I still got an impression that I was considered out of place.

As far as SR goes, the cyberpunk trope of a powerful Japan is not a problem for me. It's nice and dystopian, afterall. That's not to say that all Japanese should be played as overt racists or bigots. There will be a spectrum of attitudes, ranging from the I wish they were all dead to I wish they weren't around here to I wish they didn't exist! I would never have an SR sarariman compromise his own honour by an overt gesture of disgust such as spitting at a troll. More likely they'd ignore them and pretend they weren't there.

You've never lived on on the border, have you?

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsro...t/fence_map.pdf

Last time I checked, they were already building it.

Honestly, the U.S. is no better than Japan when it comes to these things, and in some cases is far worse. Immigrants to Japan can at least accept that the population is likely to be polite to them, even if feeling superior, while those to the U.S. have to accept that not only will the natives feel superior to them, but that some of the natives may try to scare them off, hurt them, or worse. And then there's all of the complaints about "Mexicans stealing our jobs," which is part of what prompted that wall to begin with.

Part of the reason why I think cyberpunk was so successful in the U.S. is a small amount of xenophobia. Americans are, as a societal group, not the most tolerant bunch. And the government does like to sometimes prey on that tendency. All SR did was give another focus to the xenophobia: Metahumans. Then the worst things humans have done to each other, and even attitudes some still display today, can be played out without the game being accused of promoting racism.



You don't even need to go that far. U.S. court cases within the past couple of decades have had the best examples of it scattered throughout. I'd go further, but to be honest, it's a subject that would very likely cause a flamewar. But, the issue of racism within the U.S. is far from over... in part because there are people on both sides who won't let it die.

Japan is probably the only non-european based culture that was able to hold it's own with thecolonial powers and the first non-white nation to be treated as an equal in treaties. They have a reason to be proud of their culture.

That having been said a level of fear seems to have crept in. While the west embraces the melting pot hteory Japan seems to fear that anything new mixed in that cannot be controled is a threat to them. This drive to controlcan be translated into the drive of the AAA corps.

The one thing that seems a creation is the military hardness. From what I read much of Japan is rabidly fearful of the military (except for the right fringe) I guess having a couple of atomic bombs dropped on you will do that to a country.

So, um...did anybody read Corporate Enclaves, and what did they think of our latest take on it?

poor AH, gives reassuring hug. yes I have it, I just haven't had a chance to read it yet. I think we're sharing RL expeirences and what we bring to the game.

DLN is a New Yorker but her parents are Japanese and her grand parents are really cool. DLN herself manages to look gracious and elegant as all get out in a kimono.

There is a fringe that is rabidly afraid. I don't think that is an accurate description of most of the country.

The interesting thing is that the Japanese went from being considered a western military to being the insane fanatics in China and WW2 in about 20 years. It's quite an amazing transformation. Given that it's not a huge leap to see the Japanese becoming much more militarized. It's still a pretty lame concept, but it isn't insane.

My girlfriend was a highschool exchange student a few years ago in Japan. While she loves the culture and plans on going back this summer as a college student, all of her stories are tinged with the fact she was treated as an outsider. Everyone was super polite to her, and most were nice, but she always got the vibe she was an outsider.

So I'll quasy repeat what I said in the other post. Is it really so far out there for Japan to switch back to an Imperialistic power? Japan was a isoliationist society with a strong warrior tradition. They went military mode and did a good job at it until we managed to stomp them. They then turned that same drive towards capitalism, which they excell at. If they right motivators were put in place, would it really be unthinkable for them to switch back the other direction? Especially considering the hostile countries that are relatively nearby, and with the world destabalizing.

Hermit... seriously? The Texans were already going to vote for their govenor. He didn't need to cater to them.

And I think some folks are missing the point. Being xenophobic to outside cultures is a little different than having hundreds of thousands of individuals illegally entering your country and abusing the system set up to protect it's citizens.

I should also like to point out that "xenophobia" and "deporting all metahumans & most non-Japanese to penal/extermination camps" are also markedly different. I could say "I don't trust Finns" or something and be Xenophobic. Saying "All Finns need to be put in concentration camps" is a little different.

It's part of the polite social fiction that uneducated people want to do bad things to black people because they're afraid of them.

Hell, i would claim cyberpunk is very much an American construct...

William Gibson: American born, living in Canada...
Neal Stephenson: American
Bruce Sterling: American

do i need to continue?

still, one could claim that cyberpunk is basically western with microchips.

if so, then can one claim that cyberpunk anime is basically samurai stories with guns?

i think the really big diff between japan and "the west" is this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_(Japanese)

Sure, but it is not such a big leap from "I do not trust all Finns" to "I do not want to serve any in my shop" and from there to 'Since so many people treat them badly, would they not be happier in a special place of their own? A place where they are protected from people who do not like them?"

In RL Japan today there is a growing need for non-japanese workers in the health care field. There are qualified nurses in the Philipines and Malaysia willing to learn Japanese, adopt Japanese names etc to blend in but they are still rejected because they are not Japanese. The reasons given by the Japanese shouldn't be heard coming from a so called advanced people. But they see nothing wrong with not wanting 'strangers' because they look different. One woman was quoted as saying she looks at different people and does not know how they think. This is unfortunately typical. My father lost a life long friend because he approved me marrying a white man.

So with that as the RL base, the idea that 2070 Japanese are gonig to accept Oni and the rest in their midst, just because the emperor said so, will be a hard fight.

You're both indoctrinated, just in different ways. What's the problem?

Well, I can say about Finns is this is that for the past 50 years they have been isolated from any kind of influx of culture. Finland went from a rural culture to an urban one in the 1960s. Oulu still empties for Christmas. Finland only had its first wave of immigrants in the 1990s. I was born in Finland, but I don't look Finnish, behave Finnish, and my native language is English. For the rest of my life I will be a foreigner in Finland. Finland has only been a real member of Europe for the past ten years (1995 joining the EU) and an aware country of the world since 1998 (with the advent of widespread internet usage).

Finland is not xenophobic, but there are huge generation divides even between my generation and my those who are five or ten years younger than me. We are going through nationwide culture change as abrupt and immense as in the 1960s.

Well it wasn't too long ago in Japan (A few years ago) when the government wanted to teach "pride in national culture and history" in Japanese schools. The school teachers themselves got together and fought the plan to the bone. They new to well what too much national pride can bring. It's a thin line between a patriot and a bigot, and the Japanese walk very much on it.

As a person not born in the united states i am happy (however this might come out) that i am white because i get alot less problems then some of my cousins who are much darker then i. On the other hand i know if my name was Mr. Tanaka and i spoke perfect Japanese i would still have a hard time as a foreigner in Japan. But then again like Chrysalis said about Finland, Japan has a growing youth culture that rejects the thinking of the older generations. So maybe there is hope for the Japanese fan boy to go to Japan and yell Yatta and Kawaii and not be looked on as strange.... but i doubt it.

The other side of the teachers issue was that some refused to even stand as a sign of respect when the national antheme was played and objected to the national flag being hung in school rooms. That is taking it too far the other way.

That is why I think Japanese militarism in SR is a little over the top. I can understand not wanting to recreate the military state that led to Hiroshima, but too often the Japanese opposition goes way over the other way. Serving military officers on their way to the Japanese version of the Pentagon have to arrive in civilian clothes and then change at work into uniforms to avoid the image of military having a role in government. At the other end of the spectrum there are hard core right wingers who deny Japan was wrong in WW2 and only fought a defensive war. reading their arguments just makes me angry.

Different cultures really ARE different. The "Anglosphere" of the US, UK, Australia, and Canada are generally similar, but there are still significant differences. "The West" has certain shared traditions and culture, but Italy isn't the US isn't France. Japan isn't a western country, it just plays one on TV. It's the most developed non-western country and is economically more powerful and advanced than many western countries, but Japan is as about as different from the West as Saudi Arabia, Kenya or China.

I wouldn't say so.

Some of the greatest gains in American freedom have come from annoying people who refused to play ball! Freedom of speech was advanced by Jehovah's Witnesses whose religion forbade them to salute the flag, and a jackass who wore a jacket with the word "fuck" to court, and other assorted misfits. I think it's fine to refuse to be patriotic, because so-called "patriotism" is usually just empty words and gesture. People on George W. Bush's side will tell you that, as long as you salute the flag and sing the National Anthem, you're a patriot. It doesn't matter if you hate your neighbor for being different, or if you don't believe in the U.S. Constitution and want to make the U.S. into a Christian theocracy. Some pretty piece of brightly colored cloth is more important than the founding principles of the nation, right?

Um, so trying to tie it back into on-topic... I think that those Japanese kids have the right idea, sticking it to the man for the sake of sticking it to the man. Society advances towards justice by increasing freedom, and the freedom to sit or stand, salute or not salute when you please is one of the most basic. As long as someone respects the law and doesn't commit treason, as long as they stay in the country and work to make it a better place, they're just as much patriots as anyone who has a flag out on his lawn -- maybe moreso, if the flag-guy wants to take away his neighbor's freedom.

This risks going off topic. Please keep it focused on SR, but it was not kids, but teachers who refused. I was raised to be polite, I may not sing along with or feel respect for "O'Canada" at a sporting event, but I stand out of repsect for the people to whom it is important.

One thing SR has not touched on, but I wonder if it should not, is racism from the Japanese corps in advancement. People often talk in RL about how much wealth is ammassed in the US with a population of 'only' 300 million, but Japan has the 2nd largest economy with a population of only around 120 million. This means an even greater degree of wealth amassed in an even smaller area. You saw the outburst of that in the 1980's and 90's when Japan started buying trophy sites, like Rockefeller ter and pissing people off.

The more pronounced Japanese racism of the 2050s wasn't necessarily a slight or even slow change. Fear drives these attitudes. Think about what was happening at the birth of the Sixth World, and how their underlying racism would have bubbled to the surface.

And compare the racism that existed in the US, and how it very quickly evolved into sending Native Americans to internment camps.

I think two demons in the awakening is that of social difference and genetic disorders. Japan still considers children born with birth defects or genetic disorders to be dangers to society. A parallel similar to the United States until the 1990s.

It is a different type than racism.

-Chrysalis

You know what's really cool? I'm half Japanese so whatever I say on the topic inherently cannot be "ZOMG RACIST"ed.

You're an outsider, and fully part of neither society. And can be thought racist by every group.

I think that the far right turn in Japan in the SR timeline can happen (in any country). Just look at Venezuela, it feels like overnight they became one of the main advocate of the Far Left. Look at Somalia with its military coup that is supported by much of the people. Look at many moderate Islamic countries who get taken over by fundamentalists. Public opinion and identity can sway very quickly. I can see in the turmoil of the sixth world giving many opportunities for characteristic figures to raise themselves above the rest with a clear view of things. Instead of saying, "hey lets take our time to understand this new thing that is happened to our country" its easier to follow "This invasion of our values and way of life is bad, we need to remove it before its too late". I think Japan in SR is way less crazy then the Tirs, Atzland, or North America looking more like a motzaball soup of countries.

I just wanted to let you know, Chrysalis, that I picked Finland totally at random. I only know one Finn, she and I are on quite good terms. It was hardly because I have any real feelings about the nation myself.

You numba wun raciss!!! (cookie if you get the reference)

Seriously though, Japan is a culture where basically everyone not only has the same color skin, they similar color hair and eyes, AND it's a culture that demands conformity. I can't even imagine the kind of effect that has on a person's mind, since it's so far outside my own experience as a native born American. Of course, I know that there's a lot more variation in the Japanese population than the untrained foreigner can spot. But even so, when everyone you know looks alike ethnically, and everyone is under similar pressures to fit in, it would be easy to get into a xenophobic mentality. It's harder for Americans (at least outside of small rural communities) to hate "others," because there's almost no way to define who's a real American. They literally come in all shapes and sizes, from all corners of the world... So what I'm trying to say is that, with its relatively extreme lack of diversity, I can start to understand why Japan might not be very good at welcoming outsiders. And considering their high population, and the fact that space is at a high premium, I don't think we can expect any influx of immigrants to shake things up.

Another interesting thing that I heard about on the radio this morning was about how normal social rules apparently don't apply to old widows in Japan. So most people follow very strict rules to be nice and courteous to the gaijin. But old ladies can totally stare and glare and mutter about how you should go back where you came from, and it's ok because the rules don't apply to them

Larme,
It's not just widows. Old ladies in Japan are allowed to be mean because Japan has (had?) a rigid social structure and the only person that an elderly women is lower than (or equal to, I'm no social anthropologist but knowing a little about how the Japanese treat women makes me suspect it's not equal) on that structure is her husband. Everyone else puts up with whatever they do because elders are to be respected.

One of the things that keeps the married ladies from acting like the widows is that they think they would be held responsible for their impact on the social standing of their husband. You know the groupthink effect where something is seen as far more important than it is by a group because everyone thinks the other people actually care? Works for Honour, too. Old widows know exactly how much they care about honour and face, and are far more likely to trade some for satisfaction because of it.

But old ladies in Japan can still be fearsome. Only more so in 2070 when they might be throwing spirits and fireballs around.


NB: These women generally control a number of major aspects of the household that their husband has to live in. It's not like they don't have methods of manipulating their partners to get what they want.



As for the homogeneity; culture, too. Japan has been cut off from most other cultures for long periods and most of the definitive images of foreigners are of invaders instead of trading partners. The Dutch traders don't get much in the way of mention, unfortunately.

A lot of Japanese people are not exposed to foreigners in a positive light, either. It creates a perpetuating cycle where foreigners don't stay around to get known because the Japanese don't have good impressions of them, and the Japanese don't get exposed to foreigners. Not to mention that quite a few of the foreigners that are interested in living in Japan are interested on false impressions, or are nerds of the worst variety. Some of the rest are just US troops stationed in Japanese borders and they're rowdy and feel alienated. Bad things happen because of that and it gives foreigners a bad rep.

I always treat sayings as observations more than commandments, so "the nail that sticks out gets hammered in" sounds like an observation that the amount of tolerance in Japan is low and the observation serves to make the listener aware of this fact. The knowledge implies the benefits of not sticking out. It's a choice that is made the listener, though. A culture only happens because everyone chooses to make it that way.

Ehh, making Japan a bunch of racists who send metahumans to an island prison is about as plausible as Americans rounding up the Indians and sending them to death camps (which is to say, not at all, but acceptable within the context of a setting that is too dumb to be taken that seriously). But they went too damn far with everything in how they portrayed the Japanese (they have a youth culture that is challenging lots of things today, and you also have to factor in the globalizing factors of a worldwide matrix and the near-collapse of nation states, and how they would make a closed society far less likely). Not just Yomi Island, but all of the other things - banning escrima in the Phillipines, saying how carrying a katana and wakizashi will get you in trouble if a Japanese company man sees you... they are just bland, stereotypical bad guys.

Damn it, Japan should be a cool place to shadowrun in, with tattooed yakuza guys, company men with katanas, ninjas hopping across rooftops, cutting edge tech - instead, much like the Tir, they made it into this ugly, nasty place that no runner would ever want to go to.

I'd disagree with that. The US learned in the 1940's how terrible this was when it locked up Japanese-Americans. the idea of them doing it again to indians, especially after we didn't do it to arabs after 9/11 shows we've grown. Japan never went through that and I could easily see them justifiying, if not Yomi, special areas for metas to be protected from those who don't understand them. This is how the Nazi first justified the ghettos for jews. Special places to be safe from Germans. not so. as others have pointed out here, the radical changes in the world would make the Japanese more cautious. They are already, RL, one of the most connected oscieties but still hold themselves different.
uh dude check history. most martial arts evolved because conquorers banned combat training by the people they conquored. Most 'martial arts weapons' are altered farming tools. The traditional 'highland games' of scottland are developed from ways of maintianing conditioning after hte English banned weapons.

Wait, what do you mean "not at all?" As I read the beginning of the sentence, I was like "oh, irony." Because it is definitely an ironic sentence. We DID round up the Indians and send them to camps -- they weren't so much death camps, but we did make them go on death-marches to get there. And then later we rolled in and kidnapped their children and sent them to our own schools. And then, with the Japanese? Yeah, we did it again. Again, not death camps, but they were pretty awful and plenty of people died there. It's simply naive to imagine that it couldn't happen again.

If global circumstances changed enough, it's perfectly plausible to suppose another forced relocation of Native Americans in the U.S. And if fascist elements regained control of Japan, it's 100% plausible to imagine them rounding up metas. That shouldn't be taken as an idea about the race -- just because the U.S., Japan, and Germany all did bad things in WWII does not mean that it was due to Americans, Japanese, or Germans being racist across the board. These things were acts of the government, with the support of some but not all of its citizens. That's the fun thing about governments -- in democracies, only 51% of the population has to agree, and it starts to happen. And with dictatorships, all they really need is the support of a strong army.

And let's not forget about the effects of propaganda. If the government drowns out all other voices, it's easy to imagine that most people could be converted to thinking the same way -- if there's no other trusted voice telling them that metahumans are ok, especially if they've never met metahumans, it would be easy for the government to manipulate the populace. Race-based propaganda plays off of innate xenophobia that almost everyone has -- in a culture like Japan's where much of the xenophobia is still close to the surface, the events of Shadowrun are entirely plausible, and I don't think it's racist to say so.

Also, I'm sad that nobody got my reference

Hmmm... Actually, the NeoTokyo described in Corp Enclaves is much more like that cool place to run in. Besides, there's nothing stopping any given GM from running Japan and the Japanese exactly how they like them.

For me, from a 1980s US cultural perspective, it doesn't really *matter* what the metaplot says about Japan. The crux of Japan should always be HONAAA, high quality imported goods, and depressed United Auto Workers union members. And, of course, a katana doing STR + 3 M damage whereas a regular sword is just STR M. Asian things will always be better because of HONAA and this also suggests a protracted subtle decline in the positive qualities of all things in the West, which is part of the cyberpunk mythos. However, your player characters can't just go and move to Japan or anything, because it's too inscruitable and in fact they would explode upon leasing or purchasing a place of residence over there. Them's just the 80s.

80s orientalism plays an analagous cultural role to irrational woodland hippieism in the 70s.

I disagreed, internet has diffused too recently to affect a generation that has already reached maturity and has consolidated a certain mind asset, I'm not saying that adult aren't able to change their minds, but lets face it, it's when we are adolescent that we shape our idea of how we relate to the world and other people, after that changes are much slower to come (unless something happens that changes our life in very short time forcing us to adapt); another factor is the linguistical barriers that divide them from the rest of the world, I can't tell much by personal experience (actualy I can't tell ANYTHING by personal experience) but as far as I know Japaneses (in general) have been slow to learn english (we Italians too, but in our case it's not because we reject the culture that differs from ours, it's more pure ignorance) so much of the content they were exposed to was in (from and for) japanese, this means that they have been isolated in that reguard too (no much of japanise-speanking gaijin around I think). However there is a new generation that is growing that has a widely different view of the world, they have acces to internet, with it acces to varied point of view, in particular our point of view, in time they will learn to understand how we think and how we express our feelings, they will also learn that contact with cultures different from your own doesn't mean that you must change the way you live and will face the fact that the only society that doesn't evolve is a dead society, changes are unavoidable.
Maybe I've talked too much about things that I've no experience of, maybe I offended someone with my rambling, but I've just said what I think being sincere with myself, if I've insulted anyone I apologize, if he/she cares to correct me I will be realy thankfull.

I have, but that was a different wall.


The Germans did that too. Savagery and fanaticism are covered up by civilisation, but not erased. Same about death/internment/concentration camps. Given the right circumstances (like an al quadea-esque terrorist organisation rampant and homegrown, like SAIM, that the governemnt can't get a hold on).


I was more thinking at a national level. But meh ... that's a batshit crazy plan no matter how you look at it. Won't really do any good either, unless you set up another wall and put a mine field, automated sentries and a watch tower every 500 meters between them. And even such a fortification (which is hideously expensive to maintain) isn't nearly perfect. Even if you add in loads of drones. Ask Israel, South Korea, or think of what became of East Germany.

Jeez.


Sheet. But that happens in America too. My folks there have disinherited one of their daughters for marrying a black man.


Uhm, no. There're too many similarities in how the economy and the political systems work to say that. Japan is neither a thinly veiled theocracy, a fascist one-party rule disguised as communism, or kleptocracy and tribalism. While I agree that there's lots and lots that sets Japan apart from the West, you can't really say that either.


It has. There was loads of stuff on that in the old corp book by Findley, the trilogy of power novels, and generally early SR stuff. It was quetly dropped to adapt SR's japan to today's popcultural image, though, especially in the late FanPro period where Chris "Manga Fanbunny" Lonsing was calling the shots.


It also feels extremly weird for a westerner. I never realised how much I take different hair and eye colours for granted until I was in Asia for a longer period of time. Well, at least, they don't stare at you like you're the bloody Yeti in Japan. They may well think that in less tourist frequented parts of the place, but they're too polite to outright stare.


I agree, save for the part where the US would never do that. Arab terrorists are essentially a foreign problem. What if it'd be a domestic problem? Guantanamo would be filled with US citizens then. That's what'd have happened. The SAIM was an al-queda-esque organisation that grew and operated in the US entirely. It cannot be compared to a bunch of Saudi brats.


Escrima developed because the Americans banned weapons very much like the Japanese did in SR back when they tried themselves at colonizing the Phillipines.


Please, don't forget the German things, with any weapon dulicated with a German name (usually the HK (fancy cool-ish name)) and one stat raised or one perk added. Then again, you guys were spared the bulk of this crap.

Also, driving a GM car, I can positively confirm that american cars blow big time. I'll never, ever buy anything with GM parts in it again.

The U.S. has done extremely nasty things throughout its history, but I still found rounding up Indians and putting them into death camps was implausible as presented. Yeah, we did terrible things to the Indians before, practically genocide, but does that mean we'd do the same thing again? That's like saying, because we used to have slavery, it would be plausible to imagine a dark future where we enslaved all of the non-white people again.

But the whole issue for me isn't plausibility, but playability. They have made a few positive steps since then, but the initial presentations of Japan and Tir Tairngire basically took what could have been two awesome settings to run in, and went too hog-wild slopping on the dark distopia, resulting in two paranoid, racist police states that runners had absolutely no desire to go to.

Well ... yes. And yes, it would (or any other, maybe more fashinable outcast part of society). Also, the end of slvery idn't quite mean the end of making them third-class citizens, or did it? Not to say it's US-specific, though. Could happen in France too, or whereever.


I personally found this far more interesting than the generic runner-friendly run-down barrens locations with plenty of gangs with funky names and absurdly complex tags the setting is turning into. Running a game in an environemnt where "we shoot everybody dead and then kill all cops too" isn't an answer to any problem and only sneakiness gets you somewhere can actually be a nice change too. YMMV.

silent majority, anyone? the majority may not like the ideas floating around, but they cant build up the will to stick their neck out to say so...

...And wouldn't it? You're not making the argument here, you're telling us that it's too implausible based on its implausibility We should be careful not to assume too much about the advancement of society, and its ability to turn back the clock on itself. After all, Germany was full of Jews because Germany originally wanted them. They were an enterprising people who boosted local economies and were good for the country. The Germans were willing to tolerate some people being different from them if that meant having a more thriving merchant economy. But then, what do you know, a radical element gains control of the German government and achieves a stranglehold on power -- those with the moral compass to know it's wrong are largely afraid to speak up, because the spies for the secret police are everywhere. The clock gets turned back, past the renaissance, and back to the good ol' Inquisition days, all in a few years. If we kid ourselves that something similar couldn't happen here, we're just asking to have it happen again.

Indeed. With between 50 to 70 percent of the population dead after the 30 years war, many German nations of that time were desperate for populace. Prussia accepted literally anyone welcomingly back then. They even sent out envoys to woo Turks to join them, built an islamic cemetry and a mosque in Berlin - to no avail, though. A real shame how Hitler tossed 200 years of tolerance out of the window like he did.


They were also REALLY pissed off about how France treated them after the Great War. They wanted French blood, and many were willing to pay any price for that. Also, many people in the beginning really underestimated Hitler and took him for an easily manipulated buffoon, not realising it was them who were led by the nose all the time.

Maybe you did. I've never seen a group of PCs ever go to the Tir. We pissed off GMs several times, but it's just STUPID to go there. There are always other ways to make money that don't have a >75% chance of getting you killed. There are reasons why Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR had very limited organized crime. Informer nets, all enveloping surveillance, ruthless police and a judiciary that fully supports them can go a really long way towards making a place a really shitty place to do illegal business.

God bless the United Canadian American States! Where all the cops and judges are either corrupt, and you get off with a bribe, or honorable, and you get off on a technicality! Whee!

You are aware that the Vory go back to Stalin's times, right? The real-world Vory?

And as for Nazi Germany ... well, the local mobsters mostly made up the Stormtroopers. If you can't beat them, become one of them, and all.


It makes a great setting for a run besides "we run in, shoot everybody, steal the MacGuffin and run out for the police chase", one that requires a bit more subtlety and relying on social stuff. But if that's not your cup of tea, that's okay. Just, it would be mine.

As for what we did (yes, groups go to the Tir, at least in my circle of players): Someone on the team had to have local contacts or alternatively, they have local help that's at least semi-reliable. Hits had to be prepared a little more carefully than usualthe legwork phase generally was more time-consuming, and PC had to be selected slightly carefully so they won't stand out too much (so no maximally cybered troll combat monsters with an anti-elf attitude). Worked fairly well then, though. You gotta like a more spy games approach to the setting, of course, if you're in for more cinematic action, this really isn't your kinda thing. It'd be nice if the setting would stop to try and enforce any play style, though.

and there is probably some real life yakuza hiding in the japanese politics.

and is there not a persistent rumor that the kennedys where in deep with the mafia?

They are not hiding. that's the freaky part. They have public offices. A year or so ago it was public news when a new chief was elected to the Yaks. That as opposed to the mafia in the west that won't even admit their existance.