Using battle maps? How many of you do it? Options

[Mercurian]

For those of you who use grid or hex maps, how do you work out the movement? My group pretty much sticks with the old fashioned 'mind's eye' map. We never could find a satisfactory method to work out the movement between the disparate IPs of the team using the rules put forth in the book.

[Aiolos Turin]

For those of you who use grid or hex maps, how do you work out the movement? My group pretty much sticks with the old fashioned 'mind's eye' map. We never could find a satisfactory method to work out the movement between the disparate IPs of the team using the rules put forth in the book.

I am just now trying out a new style for movement.

Thanks to a lot of gaming aids (primarily WorldWorksGame's streets) and probably a lot of tweaking (adding 1" grid to everything) I'm going to attempt a 1-3 meters per 1" grid.

Houserules, I cut in half the meters you can walk and run. I tended it in real life, and in 3 seconds (1 comabt turn) I can only walk/run HALF the meters the rules state. I am in good health and a bit quicker than most, but even speed walking I cant walk 10 meters (32' 9") in 3 seconds. Unless my feet/meter conversion is totally off, my human feet incredibly small, or my timing (seconds by mouth) inaccurate...
So effectively the human walk is 5 meter/turn and run is 12 meter/turn.

I am still working for a system, but once I find a stable system I will have exact measurements for each one. The Street 1" grid works for any outdoor urban environments. For large-scale scenes I have a very big map sectioned in 3"x3" two-block neighborhoods. I have yet to do generic inside floorplans, so the movement in those is still anarchy. If each 1" grid is 1 meter, and on average I use two or three 7"x7" tiles, then each person can walk 5 squares or run 12. Ideally I will hope to use no more than 9 tiles (3x3) which would be approximately 21" x 21" which is enough room to be more or less than even a sprinting troll (17 meters+sprint) can run from one end to the other. With 3d cardstock terrain and houses, cover and LoS is very very easy to handle. Also I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so everything is to exact scale, give or take the terrain and buildings (which can be any size...as there is no standard size for a redmond barrens apartment building). This means that I print to scale my cardstock figures using an exact meter/feet height measurement system and print at approximate 30% plus or minus size.

I will upload some pics of wth im talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Aiolos Turin]

Here are some pics of what I want to try and use. Faster setup than you'd think. 9 tiles, grab a few houses plop. Grab a handful of terrain things and place, and fin. Done.

I cant seem to put them as pictures, it just says [img] [/img] so heres the links I guess?

Cast of Characters
View of all of it
Characters and Map


Some props and cover
Closeup of Cover, Barrels, burnout Car
Verticle View of all 3x3

Stinky's Pizza
Stinky's Pizza and a few houses.
Two characters
Some more characters

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

How many of you use battle maps, and/or how common is it among Shadowrun players? I've played 3.5 dnd and many times we wouldn't use a map and it made it more fun to visualise more than use a map. When I've played 4th edition DND, I hasn't felt the same to me, almost as if I'm just playing a weird chess game with magic and swords.

I'm just wondering if anyone doesn't use maps, and how it works for you?

I used a grid for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition D&D, I found it really helped for battles, and the group liked the sudden tactical interactions of gridded combat, it saved me time having to describe everything and increased my tactical ability since I was able to concentrate on the fight. I know this doesn't work for some groups, but I've always felt D&D was a tactical exercise as much as a immersive world-building game, so the grid really helped.

That being said, Shadworun tends to have alot more stuff and alot larger ranges to deal with. I couldn't use a grid nearly as easily, and tactics became as much about the huge variety of things my enemies might be carrying, as well as changing terrain, reinforcements, covering, traps, etc etc etc. All of which I noticed mattered alot more in Shadworun. The group found it more helpful to get exact ranges on target and a description of their cover, than me trying to draw it out. It was more immersive and simultaneously tactical, especially after the first player fired a grenade on the target on the landing missed, and I just completed the arc meaning the grenade smacked into the middle of the street (don't ask). So for Shadworun, Mutants and Masterminds and similarly large scaled games, I don't use grides. For D&D, Cthulhutech, and games that have a strong tactical streak, I use grids.

[Beetle]

I tend to make area maps in Illustrator and give them out to my players for handouts. They have grids on them for approximate scale if they need to know basic distances and sizes of places. This works great for figuring out roughly where small groups of people are in relation to one another.(I use mini d6's to represent different squads on my gm version.) Since I have things already on a rough grid I can whip up a battlemat quickly if I need to for tactical purposes.

I do agree with Cain, battle mats can be a pain in the ass when it comes to movement and where everyone is during a combat turn with multiple IP's. So I only go down to the battlemat if necessary, like areas that would provide lots of cover.

[raggedhalo]

For those of you who use grid or hex maps, how do you work out the movement?

Divide your normal movement rate by the number of IPs. You decide at the beginning of each IP whether you're standing still, walking or running.

[Mercurian]

Divide your normal movement rate by the number of IPs. You decide at the beginning of each IP whether you're standing still, walking or running.

This is pretty much what I was thinking but I'm a little confused about working the map in when it comes to characters with different IPs.

Scenario:
Sammy the Samurai has 3 IPs
Mickey Meathead only has 1P
Both have the same movement.

Mickey uses his one IP to shoot and move. Does that mean, when a map is in play, that he shot on the first IP and still moving across the map on each of Sammy's additional IPs?

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I find that some kind of visual representation helps people get an idea of where they are and what kind of neat things their character could do unless they possess an exceptional spatial awareness at which point maps can sometimes hinder their creativity on battlefield tactics. Still, its not too hard to let some people ignore the map and simply explain to the GM what they want their character to do, then let the GM handle the positioning on the map for everyone else.

Even if you don't even have miniatures or markers that you move around, often a plain, non-grid map will prevent people from getting turned around and lost in the "My character stepped on what? I thought we were over here, when did that happen?" kind of way.

[Speed Wraith]

Since my game is very action-oriented we have no choice but to use a map of some sort during combat. In the past (ie 1e and 2e SR games) it would depend on the exact situation - if it were a major scene where combat was possible or even likely we would use something, if it was a minor run-in that wouldn't last long or wasn't all that important to the story then we'd go without. We've been using a grid battle mat with dry-erase markers and those tiles from D&D. I would prefer using hexes for the movement (which can be a royal pain), but hate partial hexes and walls that don't confrom, etc.

My group and I would like to use a mat and minis, but we can never find any good Shadowrun minis. We're not fans of the metal ones we've seen, and Star Wars minis kinda don't feel right.

Oddly enough, I usually use Storm Troopers for goons/corp sec types...my PCs have chosen minis from a variety of sources, our teenie-bopper technomancer's player ripped Jubilee from off the base of a Hero Clix mini for instance.

[Mercurian]

Personally, I would prefer to keep maps out of my SR games. I feel they detract from the immersion and turn the game into a table top tactical game rather than roleplaying game. The rest of the group, however, is hooked on the battle map play after an extended campaign of D&D.

[InfinityzeN]

I use a dry-erase board or paper to draw out a rough layout to help my players visualise better. Don't use the map for actual combat though.

[eidolon]

I use a dry-erase board or paper to draw out a rough layout to help my players visualise better. Don't use the map for actual combat though.

Ditto. I don't place too much emphasis on "movement" other than its effects on ranged combat, etc. If I think a combat would benefit from a visual, I'll sketch one out, but a lot of the time I just describe what's around. If a player wants to seek cover, I let them add to the scene if it makes sense, like "I take cover behind a nearby stack of shipping crates" on a shipping platform and so on.

[Shamrock]

I have to use a map when I GM. I'm too scatterbrained otherwise... I keep notes (either on my cellphone notepad for easy view during a session or on a sheet of paper tucked away with my rulebooks), as well as using maps. For some time, I used a hex grid, although now, I may forgo that entirely. Someone mentioned GamesWorkshop earlier, and it's kind of funny because after reading over the rules and movement rates and checking out maps, I saw that there was typically a scale available for meters somewhere on the map. So I figured, why not use the movement style from Warhammer 40k? A simple ruler and a specification of meters in inches or centimeters would work perfectly, as well as allow freedom of movement in 360 degrees instead of being constrained to an 8 directional grid.

I have yet to try this, but I will be doing so in the near future.

But anyway, back to the original point. Maps are a necessity, during combat at least. Simply because with a lot of enemies and numerous things going on at once, it's a good idea to take one big load of everyone's mind by giving them a visual representation instead of insisting they keep it all in their head.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

It also kind of depends on the scenario. If you are in a research facility with clearly distinct rooms, you can say something like, "I fall back to the room with that crazy tube thing." However, some locations can be extra confusing.

I went on one run where a gun fight broke out in the middle of a parking ramp. It was full of hilarious dialogue such as

"I move back three cars."

"Take 8S stun from the neurostun."

"No, I meant back away from package, towards the entrance."

or:

"I take cover behind the door."

"So you got out of the car?"

"No, the car door."

"So you're still in the car?"

"No, I'm outside the car but with the door between me and the guard."

"But if you're outside the car, then you've got a guard right next to you."

"No, I'm on the passenger's side, not the drivers side."

[Warlordtheft]

I use mapped out battles sparingly. A: my gun fights are like the ok corral, in 10 seconds the gunfight is over. B: 9 times out of 10 describing the scene works. and C: It is a pain in the drekhole to set up.

That being said I have used quickly drawn maps to show everyone where they are in relation to things.
Sprawl Sites, DMZ and at one point I had some dungeon works stuff that had magnets in it to keep the walls in place. It looked neat, but without miniature funiture it was missing some thing.

Resources that are former SR products with pregened maps:

Sprawl Sites (a book, so you'll need a copier)
Sprawl Maps
DMZ

Non SR maps that may work:
Dungeon works had put out a SCI Fi version of its master maze
Varios dungeon tiles and programs (to numerous to list, but it wil not help the ambiance unless it is a sewer or cave the runners are actually in.)
Any Architecht design program.

[Cain]

This is pretty much what I was thinking but I'm a little confused about working the map in when it comes to characters with different IPs.

Scenario:
Sammy the Samurai has 3 IPs
Mickey Meathead only has 1P
Both have the same movement.

Mickey uses his one IP to shoot and move. Does that mean, when a map is in play, that he shot on the first IP and still moving across the map on each of Sammy's additional IPs?

Your movement rate is divided by the number of IP's you have. So, Mickey would shoot and travel his full movement on his action. Sammy would only cover 1/3 of the same distance each IP. So, the slower guy actually sprints a lot further.

A sketched-out overview of the battlefield isn't a bad idea. But trying to get things down to tactical movements in Shadowrun is destined for tears. The system simply cannot handle detailed battle-mapping.

[raggedhalo]

This is pretty much what I was thinking but I'm a little confused about working the map in when it comes to characters with different IPs.

Scenario:
Sammy the Samurai has 3 IPs
Mickey Meathead only has 1P
Both have the same movement.

Mickey uses his one IP to shoot and move. Does that mean, when a map is in play, that he shot on the first IP and still moving across the map on each of Sammy's additional IPs?

Naw. The way I run it (to make life easier), Mickey goes through his entire movement in that first IP, whereas Sammy spreads it across each of his three. If you don't mind the bookkeeping (and make sure that Mickey declares his whole movement in his IP and can't change his mind) then you could move him (Normal rate/IPs in turn) per IP, sure.

Movement-wise, the real advantage to multiple IPs is that you can make multiple Running Tests and go ridiculously fast.

I make sure that my players move and then act or act and then move in one IP, rather than allowing move-act-move, which I think makes it way too powerful.

[Mercurian]

Thanks for the input. I think I'll just stick with those suggested methods and tell my more tactical-minded players to deal with it, hehe.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

If you need to sell the idea of not using a battle map to tactically minded players, just tell them that now they can control their character in three dimensions instead of just two.

[Speed Wraith]

I don't get the confusion on movement and mapping...you follow the rules in the book. It is hardest on the GM since he has multiple characters to deal with, but that's why I take notes on my laptop or scratch paper when it becomes a problem. Yes, the rules as written make it seem weird, but that's because we look at combat in terms of turns rather than as a seamless combat like our characters "experience".

[Cain]

I don't get the confusion on movement and mapping...you follow the rules in the book. It is hardest on the GM since he has multiple characters to deal with, but that's why I take notes on my laptop or scratch paper when it becomes a problem. Yes, the rules as written make it seem weird, but that's because we look at combat in terms of turns rather than as a seamless combat like our characters "experience".

The problem is that movement is spread out amongst the IP's. So, each figure is in constant motion, with the exact distance based on the number of IPs he has. Also, it gives some wonky results, in that slower characters can close faster than quicker ones, giving them better shots. You can fix this by having each character move on each "tick", but then dividing out the distances becomes a headache, and Shadowrun isn't meant to be a tick-based system in any case.

[Speed Wraith]

Hmm...I never thought about it, but the "closing faster" part makes sense. Strangely, no one has yet to make an issue of it at our table, probably in part because we don't want to over-do house rules and partly because it just doesn't make that much of a difference when a goon gets a decent shot and then waits in the open to die the rest of the time. Sorta balances itself out really, since just about everyone that is important tends to have multiple IPs, even the spell flingers.

[Cain]

The goon with one IP doesn't just get the better shot, though. He also has first crack at the best cover, best chance of escaping into a vehicle, gets the the MacGuffin first, and so on and so forth. You also have to add "stacking" rules, which aren't necessary in an abstract system.

Shadowrun is not meant to be an exact system. It's made to be abstract, to use approximations and to assume a few different things rather than exactly portioning it out with a tape measure. Trying to take things to the tactical miniature level is going to be an exercise in futility, since the system simply isn't designed for it.

[Zombayz]

My group uses maps, but it's more of being able to where the party is in comparison with the enemy/objectives.

[GrinderTheTroll]

How many of you use battle maps, and/or how common is it among Shadowrun players? I've played 3.5 dnd and many times we wouldn't use a map and it made it more fun to visualise more than use a map. When I've played 4th edition DND, I hasn't felt the same to me, almost as if I'm just playing a weird chess game with magic and swords.

I'm just wondering if anyone doesn't use maps, and how it works for you?

SR lets players get all sorts of data, maps and readouts on things I don't always have handy. I work with geography types (google maps) or large scale strategic maps until the need for specific data (astral mappers or hacker types) comes along, then when needed I'll draw out the detail (sometimes on the fly) from maps i've created or stuff from books/prior runs.

For combat, we always use the grid maps (25mm:1m) and use figures, hot-wheel, etc. for player/NPC placement. Vehicle chase scenes and other abstract encounters, we'll use a map to help keep relative distances (1sq = 100m, 10m, etc.). My map is large enough to handle most situations, else we evaluate changing scale or moving to strategic maps (opponents flee/die) and resume.

Since this is all 2D, it can get tricky representing 3D events but 3D has its own set of problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)