SIN Poll, No 1s required! Options

[WeaverMount]

So Fake SINs take a lot of heat. Just wondering what you would or have done about it.

[Muspellsheimr]

My suggestion: Scanners roll Rating x 2 against a Threshold of Fake SIN Rating.

So, a Rating 6 Scanner vs. a Rating 5 Fake: 12 dice vs. Threshold 5.

If the rating of the scanner is at least double that of the SIN, it detects the fake automatically (buys Hits). If the rating of the SIN is greater than twice that of the scanner, it cannot be detected (scanner cannot roll enough Hits).

High security areas & high alert areas each will check a SIN one additional time before okaying it (thus, a secure facility on alert will get 3 chances to detect a fake each time it is checked).



I actually suggest this for all the fake/bypass equipment: Passkeys, Retinal Adjusters, etc all set the Threshold; scanners all roll Rating x 2 to detect it, with additional checks in secure/alert locations.



I forget exactly what it was, but if I remember correctly, a 6 scanner has roughly 25-30% chance per roll to detect a 6 fake SIN, while the stuffer shack will be unable to at all.

Edit: Just calculated the probabilities of a Rating 6 scanner detecting a Rating 6 Fake under this system (assuming the calculator used is accurate):
1 attempt (standard): 17.772245649093632% chance of detection.
2 attempts (secure or alert): 32.38596414406999% chance of detection.
3 attempts (secure & alert): 44.402496689652116% chance of detection.

Seems reasonable to me.

[InfinityzeN]

I think the price is actually fairly right. Creating a SIN is a difficult job requiring a very specialized skill set. That means it is going to cost a fair chunk of change. However, they are far to fragile and so need something to bump them up in strength IMO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

That being said, I don't normally break my players fake SINs unless there is some story driven reason to do so or they get stuck in a spot where it would have little chance to hold up. (Rating 2 fake sin run through a Rating 6 scanner?!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Starmage21]

I think the price is actually fairly right. Creating a SIN is a difficult job requiring a very specialized skill set. That means it is going to cost a fair chunk of change. However, they are far to fragile and so need something to bump them up in strength IMO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

That being said, I don't normally break my players fake SINs unless there is some story driven reason to do so or they get stuck in a spot where it would have little chance to hold up. (Rating 2 fake sin run through a Rating 6 scanner?!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

yeah, I pretty much do the same. Fake SINs dont break unless someone gets really stupid about it. Muspellheimer's house rule is kinda nice though. Might switch to that and see how it plays.

[Cain]

I only make the players roll when it's important. They don't need to roll vs. the rating 2 scanner at the Stuffer Shack, but they do need to roll against the handheld rating 2 scanner a corp cop is carrying.

Additionally, for everyday use, I like to play characters with the SINner flaw. The flaw means you have a legitimate SIN, which cannot be broken or proven false. The fake SINs only come out for shadow stuff: buying weapons and ammo, illegal gear, that sort of thing. Fake SINs also get rotated on a regular basis, and should have no connection to your real identity. Yes, this does mean that a flaw turns into a benefit.

[InfinityzeN]

I only make the players roll when it's important. They don't need to roll vs. the rating 2 scanner at the Stuffer Shack, but they do need to roll against the handheld rating 2 scanner a corp cop is carrying.

Additionally, for everyday use, I like to play characters with the SINner flaw. The flaw means you have a legitimate SIN, which cannot be broken or proven false. The fake SINs only come out for shadow stuff: buying weapons and ammo, illegal gear, that sort of thing. Fake SINs also get rotated on a regular basis, and should have no connection to your real identity. Yes, this does mean that a flaw turns into a benefit.

You aren't the only one to do this. I actually did something like this back in SR3. If I get a chance to play, rather than run, SR4 I'm planning on doing the same thing again.

[Muspellsheimr]

I never quite understood why SINner was a negative quality; yes, it has detriments, but the benefits equal or exceed those (at least how I have always used it).

[TheOOB]

I think their cost is good, but I also use them differently then most. First, I include automatic updates and clearing in the cost of a fake SIN. Even if you don't use it, it will look active, and you can have all the data erased for free as long as it doesn't become a criminal SIN(in which case you would have to pay the cost of the SIN again to have it cleared, or more depending on how bad the crime is).

I also don't require rolls to detect the SIN as fake for normal uses, I just have a table that says what you can get away with in most areas. Note that just having the required rating lets you accomplish the task, but you'll get inconsistencies and get questions asked a bit unless you have at least one over the required rating.

1 - Ride a Bus, Shop at Stuffer Shack, sleep at coffin motel, Walk Downtown, anything else where they check if you have a SIN, not if it's valid.
2 - Pass a basic backround check, shop at good stores, sleep at normal motel, own property(Mid lifestyle)
3 - Pass good backround check, shop at upscale stores, sleep at hotel
4 - Pass government backround check, shop at exclusive stores, high lifestyle, sleep at high class hotels.
5 - Pass extensive backround check, have luxury lifestyle.
6- A real SIN for all intents and purposes.

When someone actually does get suspicious and check a SIN, they do an opposed forgery+device test(or device if they don't have the forgery skill). Getting the SINs rating in successes will reveal some kind of inconsistency(enough to question the person further). Actually proving the SIN is false requires twice the rating in hits.

[Heath Robinson]

I am massively in favour of streamlining the rules by reducing the number of opposed rolls. Using the SIN Rating as a threshold for a test using Detector Rating x2 sounds good to me.

[ornot]

I don't break my players SINs unless they do something stupid. I was even nice enough that when they got dragged to a copshop for being extremely suspicious they didn't lose the SIN. The sam decided to take the mage's shoes for a walk while he was doing astral recon. He couldn't come up with an adequate reason for the border guards for why he was riding his motorcycle with a comatose body zip-tied to his arse. However, I didn't want to derail the adventure any further, so they just lost a few hours potential legwork, and got laughed at by the other players.

I'm inclined to make having a SIN the norm, and have being SINless the -ve trait, since having a SIN is typically more useful than not. Everyone has a fake SIN anyway for running, or suspicious purchases. I've not applied this rule, since it doesn't impact all that much on my game, but if everyone starts taking SINner, I might.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

My housrule is:

Any (passive) fake presents a threshold of rating to any verification system, ony the latter rolls its rating dice against said threshold.

That makes a) aquiring copied keycards more intresting than a just slotting the maglock passkey b) fake SINs are able to uphold lifestyles as described in RC and c) the number of rolls is reduced, as any verification system with a lesser rating than the fake will automatically accept it. (automatic failure on test).

PS: Using double rating dice for verification systems just drags on the basic problem that max rating fakes are described as near-perfect, but fail too often in game reality - whereas weak fakes remain completly useless - as well as there still is need to roll for best fake against average verification system.

[Fuchs]

Very good rule, Rotbart.

[Blade]

A few things to consider:

* A rating 1 or 2 SIN verifier is quite likely to glitch or critical glitch. Even a rating 3 SIN verifier is quite prone to glitching. Because of this, people are likely to consider them as buggy. And even if it wasn't the case, the person using it will be more likely to let you try again instead of flagging your SIN as incorrect right away, just look at how people today will react if your credit card doesn't work. As long as you don't look or act suspicious, they'll probably ask you to try again until the SIN is checked.

* The manager of the Stuffer Shack doesn't care if his client's SIN is valid. He just wants to know if the money is.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

A rating 1 or 2 SIN verifier is quite likely to glitch or critical glitch. Even a rating 3 SIN verifier is quite prone to glitching.

So is a fake SIN 3 by RAW... which, until errata, was the max for chargen.

Honestly, the whole idea that a completly passive thing like a SIN/biometric copy needs to roll any dice at all is beyond me.

[Warlordtheft]

I only make the players roll when it's important. They don't need to roll vs. the rating 2 scanner at the Stuffer Shack, but they do need to roll against the handheld rating 2 scanner a corp cop is carrying.

Additionally, for everyday use, I like to play characters with the SINner flaw. The flaw means you have a legitimate SIN, which cannot be broken or proven false. The fake SINs only come out for shadow stuff: buying weapons and ammo, illegal gear, that sort of thing. Fake SINs also get rotated on a regular basis, and should have no connection to your real identity. Yes, this does mean that a flaw turns into a benefit.

The big draw back being that if you don't take the right precautions, someone can easily track you down. At the very least find out all they need to know about the legal you.

[Browncoatone]

I don't get how many of the archetypes we've seen over the years can possibly be SINless. For example the Bounty Hunter, the Private Detective, the Rocker, and the Former- well the Former Just-About-Anything.

Now I get that someone with a SIN that doesn't want one could have it trashed by a decker and become SINless (though I wonder if there aren't government agencies that keep records offline and track the progress of such individuals) but how does one make a living as a Private Detective without a SIN, at the very least a fake one?

It seems to me that there would be a large percentage of the Shadowrunner population, like the before mentioned PI and Bounty Hunter, that actually have real SINs, and real names, that do moonlighting work in the shadows sort of 'part-time'. Maybe it's for the money, maybe it's for the adventure, maybe it's just their own personal crusade against furbies.

After all, just because you have a SIN doesn't mean you necessarily have a 9 to 5 job, two kids and a house payment. You rent a place under your real name, and don't bring your work home. You set up a small corporation to filter your funds through and hire yourself as a consultant, or maybe a slot in marketing or advertising and don't take anyone to your work. It doesn't sound that difficult.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I don't get how many of the archetypes we've seen over the years can possibly be SINless. For example the Bounty Hunter, the Private Detective, the Rocker, and the Former- well the Former Just-About-Anything.

The crash ate it.

[InfinityzeN]

The crash ate it.

Only so many times you can use that before it gets redundent. Personally, I like when they have a SIN and try to keep the shadow scene from messing with their real life. It also makes it easier for them to retire from the game (running the shadows that is).

[Muspellsheimr]

Slight revision to my house-rule (I never got a chance to actually use it, so details tend to vary at the moment).


Verification systems roll Rating x 2 against a threshold of bypass equipment Rating (in this case, SIN verification vs. threshold of Fake SIN).

If the rating of the verification system is at least twice that of the Fake, it detects it automatically (this prevents a Rating 1 being able to potentially bypass the best security in the world).

If the rating of the Fake is at least twice that of the verification system, it cannot be detected (technically, being twice the rating, the system has a [small] chance to detect it, but that is ignored)


If a location is classified as "highly secure" or is on active alert, it will roll twice each time a Fake is checked, keeping the better result. If a location is classified as "highly secure" and is on active alert, it will roll three times each time a Fake is checked, keeping the best result.

If a location is classified as "unsecured", it will roll twice each time a Fake is checked, keeping the worse result.


In general, public locations will only verify that you have a SIN, not check if it's authentic.



Breakdown of probability a Fake will be detected (rounded to the second decimal)
Format:
Scanner Rating - Chance of being detected
Scanner Rating - Chance of being detected (Secure or Alert)
Scanner Rating - Chance of being detected (Secure & Alert)

Rating 6 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 17.77%
6 - 32.39%
6 - 44.40%
5 - 07.66%
5 - 14.73%
5 - 21.26%
4 - 01.97%
4 - 03.89%
4 - 05.78%
3 - 00.00%
3 - 00.00%
3 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%

Rating 5 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 36.85%
6 - 60.12%
6 - 74.81%
5 - 21.31%
5 - 38.08%
5 - 51.28%
4 - 08.79%
4 - 16.82%
4 - 24.13%
3 - 01.78%
3 - 03.54%
3 - 05.26%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%

Rating 4 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 60.69%
6 - 84.55%
6 - 93.93%
5 - 44.07%
5 - 68.72%
5 - 82.51%
4 - 25.87%
4 - 45.04%
4 - 59.26%
3 - 10.01%
3 - 19.03%
3 - 27.13%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
2 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%

Rating 3 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
5 - 70.09%
5 - 91.05%
5 - 97.32%
4 - 53.18%
4 - 78.08%
4 - 89.74%
3 - 31.96%
3 - 53.71%
3 - 68.50%
2 - 11.11%
2 - 20.99%
2 - 29.77%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%

Rating 2 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
3 - 64.88%
3 - 87.67%
3 - 95.67%
2 - 40.74%
2 - 64.88%
2 - 79.19%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%
1 - 00.00%

Rating 1 Fake

[ Spoiler ]

6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
6 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
5 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
4 - 100.00%
3 - 100.00%
3 - 100.00%
3 - 100.00%
2 - 100.00%
2 - 100.00%
2 - 100.00%
1 - 55.56%
1 - 80.25%
1 - 91.22%

Note: While a Rating 6 Fake "cannot be broken", a Rating 6 Scanner "cannot be fooled".

I would allow players to spend Edge to reduce the number of rolls a scanner is allowed to make by 1, with multiple Edge expenditures allowed (if it would reduce the number of rolls to 0, instead treat the system as "unsecured" - roll twice & keep the worse).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

So with your system, it's still better to play russion roulette than to bet on the probability that the best fake money can buy will get you by?

[InfinityzeN]

So with your system, it's still better to play russion roulette than to bet on the probability that the best fake money can buy will get you by?

Where do you get this idea? With a rating 6 fake SIN (the best money can buy), rating 3 and below scanners have a 0% chance of detecting you, while a rating 4 scanner has less than a 6% chance of detecting it under the highest situations.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Where do you get this idea? With a rating 6 fake SIN (the best money can buy), rating 3 and below scanners have a 0% chance of detecting you

Actually, reaching a threshold is enough, so rating 3 has a chance. And I was referring to the fact that a rating 6 fake will fail about 18% of the time against a rating 6 system... you know, the kind of system you usually need to defeat when going for the best.

In which case, the russian 17% chance sounds still better.

[Muspellsheimr]

You did not bother to read my post - a Rating 3 Scanner does not have a chance to detect a Rating 6 Fake.

& as I also pointed out, a Rating 6 Fake is regarded as "unbreakable"; however, a Rating 6 scanner is also "unbeatable". So an 82% chance to beat the unbeatable is quite fair. Even in the most extreme circumstances, the odds are still in your favor by over 10%

[Kev]

I don't get how many of the archetypes we've seen over the years can possibly be SINless. For example the Bounty Hunter, the Private Detective, the Rocker, and the Former- well the Former Just-About-Anything.

Now I get that someone with a SIN that doesn't want one could have it trashed by a decker and become SINless (though I wonder if there aren't government agencies that keep records offline and track the progress of such individuals) but how does one make a living as a Private Detective without a SIN, at the very least a fake one?

It seems to me that there would be a large percentage of the Shadowrunner population, like the before mentioned PI and Bounty Hunter, that actually have real SINs, and real names, that do moonlighting work in the shadows sort of 'part-time'. Maybe it's for the money, maybe it's for the adventure, maybe it's just their own personal crusade against furbies.

After all, just because you have a SIN doesn't mean you necessarily have a 9 to 5 job, two kids and a house payment. You rent a place under your real name, and don't bring your work home. You set up a small corporation to filter your funds through and hire yourself as a consultant, or maybe a slot in marketing or advertising and don't take anyone to your work. It doesn't sound that difficult.

If they have real SINs, they have the SINner flaw. If not, the Crash ate it or they purposefully had it erased. Who knows, right?

Honestly, the SINner flaw is a big-time negative if you ever run into the Star or corp security gets your fingerprints/biometrics. Your fingerprints, DNA, blood type, etc. are all available to law enforcement to track you down. Do something wrong, leave a drop of blood (from, say, getting SHOT?) and BOOM, your name and face are all over the APB blotter for every Lone Star drone's facial recognition software or every beat cop's AR display (assuming, of course, that what you were doing is bad enough/important enough to have an APB issued, which most cases of corporate sabotage can/should be in my games).

It doesn't usually come up, but if it does.... Plus you can get in trouble from the police if they ever decide to stop you and match your SIN vs. your actual biometrics. You'll come up twice in the system, one a fake the other the REAL you.

[Cain]

A high-rating SIN should have biometrics that closely match your own, otherwise it's useless.

With billions of people in a global SIN registry, it's not hard to imagine that someone else would share characteristics similar to your own, enough to confuse a SIN scanner. It's only under a deep scan that really specific information would come up.

For example, a DNA scanner does not decode your genome. It looks for certain markers, and figures out who you are by matching enough of them. However, to scan all of them would take a massive amount of time, so they just look for a select few. IMG, the higher rating the scanner, the more genetic markers it tests for.