SIN Poll, No 1s required! Options

[Browncoatone]

If they have real SINs, they have the SINner flaw. If not, the Crash ate it or they purposefully had it erased. Who knows, right?

Honestly, the SINner flaw is a big-time negative if you ever run into the Star or corp security gets your fingerprints/biometrics. Your fingerprints, DNA, blood type, etc. are all available to law enforcement to track you down. Do something wrong, leave a drop of blood (from, say, getting SHOT?) and BOOM, your name and face are all over the APB blotter for every Lone Star drone's facial recognition software or every beat cop's AR display (assuming, of course, that what you were doing is bad enough/important enough to have an APB issued, which most cases of corporate sabotage can/should be in my games).

It doesn't usually come up, but if it does.... Plus you can get in trouble from the police if they ever decide to stop you and match your SIN vs. your actual biometrics. You'll come up twice in the system, one a fake the other the REAL you.

Ok, so two PCs get into a firefight with a local Yakuza/Mafia/Go-Gang and both are hit during the shooting. Along comes the Star to restore order. Forensics starts to run up the type and position of the guns based on the shell casings and stray bullet impacts while the Wizard casts a detect blood spell on the scene looking for some ritual link material. Once the blood is found the biotech boys step in and run a sample through the DNA identification protocol and one pops up as both John Smith and Jack Jones while the other comes up as Jill Jackson. Further investigation will reveal that both Jack Jones and Jill Jackson are fake identities. But all three have an address listed so it's Stars all around. Jill Jackson lives in a low rent apartment on the edge of the Barrens and wasn't home when the local patrol swung by. Jack Jones lives in a condemned building without water, power, sewer or telecomn and John Smith lives in a middle class condo in Tacoma but his neighbors haven't seen him in some time. The Star puts out an APB on John Smith, Jack Jones, and Jill Jackson while the Sorcery division begins a ritual casting on the blood trace.

So where's the big difference? A fake ID is comprised of the same components as a real ID: a photo, a DNA code, a file number, a name, a birthdate- in fact a 'fake' ID can be more real than a 'real' ID if you use it as your primary SIN. That is, if you use your fake ID to rent your housing, buy your food, subscribe to Trideo service, etc, all the vulnerabilities are there regardless if your real name is or not. The only difference I see between a real ID and a fake one is the DNA sample down at the government office and if you need a blood sample to make the ID what difference does that make?

[Cain]

You assume that they'll run the equivalent of a Level 6 DNA scan on just another gangland shooting. Heck, even with extensive DNA testing, you can't get things down to only 3 people! You can get it down to enough for probable cause, within the confines of a city; you cannot identify three people out of the world population.

[Browncoatone]

Perhaps today, but this is 50+ years from now, we'd be fools to think that a Hacker can cut through encryption like butter but DNA identification technology won't advance in five decades.

But that's really a moot point because regardless if the tech boys can make an ID off of the DNA the mage team can use that DNA sample for ritual sorcery to find out exactly who shed that blood and where they're standing.

A properly manufactured Fake ID is as good as the real thing. And in some ways faking an ID in 2050+ is easier than it is now because it's all ones and zeros rather than physical paper/plastic and holograms. Copy your current ID, change the name and number, then start planting background records for it and you're done! Of course that would leave you as vulnerable as using your real ID, but the distinction between fake and real really just comes down to the authority of the issuing party. Jimmy the fish probably isn't the authorized party to see about that new SIN but his work may very well be just as effective as the real thing.

[Cain]

Perhaps today, but this is 50+ years from now, we'd be fools to think that a Hacker can cut through encryption like butter but DNA identification technology won't advance in five decades.

The technology is pretty well established. But assuming we improve to hand-held DNA scanners, there still won't be the need to run a full analysis on every suspect in every shooting. It's also not going to break each and every one of your fake SINs. You'd run a quick scan in the field, enough to narrow down your suspect list; once you've got a suspect in custody, *then* you run the Level 6 scan. So, that first check on the global SIN database is going to present quite a few possible hits.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You did not bother to read my post - a Rating 3 Scanner does not have a chance to detect a Rating 6 Fake.

Actually, I read it and point out your mistake - by you houserule, a scanner 3 has 6 dice and thus can generate 6 hit max, reaching a threshold of 6. It's a chance of 0,14% - exactly the chance of a scanner 6 beating a fake 6 in my houserule. For reference: rolling 100 on a D100 twice in succession is a 0,01% chance.

I also pointed out, a Rating 6 Fake is regarded as "unbreakable"; however, a Rating 6 scanner is also "unbeatable".

Actually, a scanner 6 is never referred to as unbeatable in description, whereas a SIN 6 is described as such.

So an 82% chance to beat the unbeatable is quite fair.

Like I pointed out, an 83% chance of survival is the one you get out of russian roulette. If you consider putting a six-shooter with one chamber loaded against your head after spinning it fair... well, we obviously have a disagreement about probability.

I've seen a character die on a double 100 on a D100, and it makes for a great anecdote - that's about what I consider fitting for a near-perfect fake to be singled out. In fact, with my houserule, it's still more than ten times more likely to happen.

[WeaverMount]

For example, a DNA scanner does not decode your genome. It looks for certain markers, and figures out who you are by matching enough of them. However, to scan all of them would take a massive amount of time, so they just look for a select few. IMG, the higher rating the scanner, the more genetic markers it tests for.

It's pretty reasonable to think that by 2020 US$1000 and 1 hour will let you full on sequence a genome. We already have lab on chip sequencers, the issues with them are engineering and industrial, not theoretical. Then take on 50 years to /that/. Fun with math Here are some good numbers on DNA matching. I'm actually pretty sure that given the state of biotech in 2070 getting million to 1 odds of a match against a data base of around a billion would be pretty do able.

[Muspellsheimr]

Actually, I read it and point out your mistake

You have very blatantly not read my post.

Like I pointed out, an 83% chance of survival is the one you get out of russian roulette. If you consider putting a six-shooter with one chamber loaded against your head after spinning it fair... well, we obviously have a disagreement about probability.

When you are going up against the best verification systems in the world, an 82% chance to beat them is very fucking good.

[Cain]

It's pretty reasonable to think that by 2020 US$1000 and 1 hour will let you full on sequence a genome. We already have lab on chip sequencers, the issues with them are engineering and industrial, not theoretical. Then take on 50 years to /that/. Fun with math Here are some good numbers on DNA matching. I'm actually pretty sure that given the state of biotech in 2070 getting million to 1 odds of a match against a data base of around a billion would be pretty do able.

You're still not going to full-sequence a genome in the field. It's excessive. Even allowing for massively sped-up technology, currently DNA tests don't normally go full-match. They go for a confidence percentage, say 99.9% or higher. Within a city, that's pretty good. But on a global scale?

I can't recall what the Shadowrun world population is, but I believe that we've got 3.5 billion or so people right now. Even given super-fast processing, that's a lot of people to search through. No one is going to run a check against 3.5 billion samples for a perfect match. Instead, they're going to get a list of suspects, and narrow it down from there.

[Browncoatone]

You're still not going to full-sequence a genome in the field. It's excessive. Even allowing for massively sped-up technology, currently DNA tests don't normally go full-match. They go for a confidence percentage, say 99.9% or higher. Within a city, that's pretty good. But on a global scale?

I can't recall what the Shadowrun world population is, but I believe that we've got 3.5 billion or so people right now. Even given super-fast processing, that's a lot of people to search through. No one is going to run a check against 3.5 billion samples for a perfect match. Instead, they're going to get a list of suspects, and narrow it down from there.

Let's take two examples:

Example #1 is Victoria Pratt. Victoria is a physical adept that teaches yoga at the local 24/7 Fitness. She also moonlights as a Shadowrunner specializing in infiltration and surviellance under the moniker 'Sidestep'.

Example #2 is Tharg. Born in an abandoned warehouse, Tharg is a former gangbanger from Redmond. A Shadowrunner, Tharg specializes in Gang and Ork relations. Other than that he mostly just hurts people.

Both Victoria and Tharg purchase Fake IDs from the local Yakuza and both maintain middle class lifestyles in Tacoma. However...

Victoria leases her apartment under her 'real' name. She buys her groceries under her 'real' name. She subscribes to Penthouse Magazine under her 'real' name.

Tharg leases his apartment under the name "John Smith". He buys his groceries and subscribes to the Violence Channel under the name "John Smith".

If people with hostile intent discover Victoria's real identity she's in real trouble. They know her address, where she buys her food and what kind of blonde she likes.

If people with hostile intent discover Tharg's fake identity he's in real trouble. They know his address, where he buys his food, and what kind of TV he watches.

In either case, it's not the authenticity of the identification that matters but rather how you use it that determines your vulnerability.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You have very blatantly not read my post.

No, I just tend to disagree about what probabilities can be ignored. SR4 declares automatic failure only if you have less dice than threshold.

When you are going up against the best verification systems in the world, an 82% chance to beat them is very fucking good.

No, it's not. You'll realize as soon as you put the six-shooter against you head.

[ornot]

Just as one would not choose to play russian roulette, a runner should not choose to undergo a rating 6 security check with their fake SIN.

I like Mudspellheimer's thresholds for success/failure.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Just as one would not choose to play russian roulette, a runner should not choose to undergo a rating 6 security check with their fake SIN.

Neither rules are exclusive for fake SIN, and runners are the ones most likely to get past security systems that way.
Of course, when it comes to SIN verification, it's usually neither by choice, nor avoidable.

But hey - even if the '2xRating vs. Rating Threshold' houserule is statistically not as solid as the descriptions would suggest, it is still way better than RAW.
I'll prefer the 'Rating vs. Rating Threshold' houserule though, thank you.

[Kev]

Ok, so two PCs get into a firefight with a local Yakuza/Mafia/Go-Gang and both are hit during the shooting. Along comes the Star to restore order. Forensics starts to run up the type and position of the guns based on the shell casings and stray bullet impacts while the Wizard casts a detect blood spell on the scene looking for some ritual link material. Once the blood is found the biotech boys step in and run a sample through the DNA identification protocol and one pops up as both John Smith and Jack Jones while the other comes up as Jill Jackson. Further investigation will reveal that both Jack Jones and Jill Jackson are fake identities. But all three have an address listed so it's Stars all around. Jill Jackson lives in a low rent apartment on the edge of the Barrens and wasn't home when the local patrol swung by. Jack Jones lives in a condemned building without water, power, sewer or telecomn and John Smith lives in a middle class condo in Tacoma but his neighbors haven't seen him in some time. The Star puts out an APB on John Smith, Jack Jones, and Jill Jackson while the Sorcery division begins a ritual casting on the blood trace.

So where's the big difference? A fake ID is comprised of the same components as a real ID: a photo, a DNA code, a file number, a name, a birthdate- in fact a 'fake' ID can be more real than a 'real' ID if you use it as your primary SIN. That is, if you use your fake ID to rent your housing, buy your food, subscribe to Trideo service, etc, all the vulnerabilities are there regardless if your real name is or not. The only difference I see between a real ID and a fake one is the DNA sample down at the government office and if you need a blood sample to make the ID what difference does that make?

You know, I think I goofed when talking earlier. I actually don't think your REAL biometrics would be linked to a FAKE SIN. If you were SINless, had a fake SIN, got shot, and the cops checked your blood sample for DNA, you wouldn't come up at all in the system (unless previously arrested). If you had a real SIN, your blood would match with your REAL SIN and Lone Star would knock on your REAL door and wonder where you REALLY were that night when a there was a vicious shoot-out near Bellevue.

It only gets WORSE if you have a criminal SIN, 'cause then they don't even ask you. They just kick in your door, throw some flashbangs and gas, and haul you downtown.

What raises the question is this; does a higher-rated fake SIN more closely match you? For instance, I could see if a level 1 fake SIN says that your elf female's name is HECTOR MARTINEZ from PCC. Prints wouldn't match, bloodtype wouldn't match, etc. Now for a rating 6, maybe it's YOUR picture... but do you think it's really YOUR fingerprints/biometrics? That way if you get stopped by cops and they print you, you come up under that fake SIN? 'Cause then, if you had a real SIN, you'd come up twice.

Hmmm... questions, questions....

[Warlordtheft]

You're still not going to full-sequence a genome in the field. It's excessive. Even allowing for massively sped-up technology, currently DNA tests don't normally go full-match. They go for a confidence percentage, say 99.9% or higher. Within a city, that's pretty good. But on a global scale?

I can't recall what the Shadowrun world population is, but I believe that we've got 3.5 billion or so people right now. Even given super-fast processing, that's a lot of people to search through. No one is going to run a check against 3.5 billion samples for a perfect match. Instead, they're going to get a list of suspects, and narrow it down from there.

You are also assuming DNA is still relevant in criminal investigations. The sterilize spell destroys any DNA evidence that may exist at the crime scene. People can have their genes mucked with (leonization does that, as does other purposeful genetech manipulation). Also, out of that 3.5 billion, how many actually have SINs? 50%? 75%? Lower? The other factor is that SINs may be registered but where is the data stored. It is not like Aztechnology is going to share its SIN information with Lonestar.

[Cain]

What raises the question is this; does a higher-rated fake SIN more closely match you? For instance, I could see if a level 1 fake SIN says that your elf female's name is HECTOR MARTINEZ from PCC. Prints wouldn't match, bloodtype wouldn't match, etc. Now for a rating 6, maybe it's YOUR picture... but do you think it's really YOUR fingerprints/biometrics? That way if you get stopped by cops and they print you, you come up under that fake SIN? 'Cause then, if you had a real SIN, you'd come up twice.

If you're running against 3.5 billion samples, you're going to get more than one match per category anyway. But honestly, who's going to check all those? They're going to go for the first match they find, they're not going to run 3.5 billion checks at the Stuffer Shack. You won't come up twice, the system will stop at the first "you" it finds.

The other factor is that SINs may be registered but where is the data stored. It is not like Aztechnology is going to share its SIN information with Lonestar.

As a matter of fact, Aztechnology is compelled to share its SIN information with Lone Star; IIRC the Corporate Court maintains the Global SIN registry.

But you're right that where it's stored makes a huge difference. Light only travels so fast, so even with huge processing speeds, you're going to have a physical limit. You can only transfer data so quickly, depending on how far it goes. If the data is halfway around the world, it'd take 175,000,000 seconds to run a full search, or 2,916,666 seconds, or 48,611 hours! And that assumes zero turnaround time at either end; no time to actually process the data. It also assumes that the data is a single photon; in practice, it'd be much higher.

[WeaverMount]

But you're right that where it's stored makes a huge difference. Light only travels so fast, so even with huge processing speeds, you're going to have a physical limit. You can only transfer data so quickly, depending on how far it goes.

true

If the data is halfway around the world, it'd take 175,000,000 seconds to run a full search, or 2,916,666 seconds, or 48,611 hours! And that assumes zero turnaround time at either end; no time to actually process the data. It also assumes that the data is a single photon; in practice, it'd be much higher.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
I have no clue where you got these numbers, or why the existence of Google doesn't make you realize there is something wrong with your thinking.

[estradling]

But you're right that where it's stored makes a huge difference. Light only travels so fast, so even with huge processing speeds, you're going to have a physical limit. You can only transfer data so quickly, depending on how far it goes. If the data is halfway around the world, it'd take 175,000,000 seconds to run a full search, or 2,916,666 seconds, or 48,611 hours! And that assumes zero turnaround time at either end; no time to actually process the data. It also assumes that the data is a single photon; in practice, it'd be much higher.

Uhmm that implies that your local DNA scanner is pulling all 3.5 billion (est) records one at a time from around the world and making the comparison. Instead of the much more effective idea of sending your sample(s) information to the record data base and having the database run through them and send the results back to you

[Cain]

I have no clue where you got these numbers, or why the existence of Google doesn't make you realize there is something wrong with your thinking.

Speed of light is ~186,000 miles per second. Earth is ~25,000 miles around. Rest is just math.

[WeaverMount]

Speed of light is ~186,000 miles per second. Earth is ~25,000 miles around. Rest is just math.

Please tell us what math lets you take those values wind up with that 48,611 hours figure you quoted. Google searches billions of entries in it's database. And you can't ping a google cache in the 42.55 milliseconds your numbers imply

[Tiger Eyes]

If you're running against 3.5 billion samples, you're going to get more than one match per category anyway. But honestly, who's going to check all those? They're going to go for the first match they find, they're not going to run 3.5 billion checks at the Stuffer Shack. You won't come up twice, the system will stop at the first "you" it finds.

As a matter of fact, Aztechnology is compelled to share its SIN information with Lone Star; IIRC the Corporate Court maintains the Global SIN registry.

Technically, Aztechnology is required to share SIN information with the Global SIN registry, not with Lone Star. There's a few points here. First, the SIN is a System Identification Number, which is simply an identifier which contains imbedded data. While most corporations and countries-but certainly not all-will require some level of biometric data to be linked to a SIN in their own files and databases, they do not necessarily share that data with the Global SIN Registry (GSR). I would bet that none of the megas or AAs put their citizen's biometric data up on the GSR, and that very few nations do so.

From Feral Cities:

To participate in the GSR, more than 90 percent of your citizens must be issued SINs, which have to contain at least name, birthdate, birthplace, gender, and metatype. (You may be surprised to find out that the GSR does not require a biometric sample attached to a nation’s SIN.)

So, let's say Lone Star has some DNA samples left at a crime scene. They run them through the UCAS SIN registry, which since they are a contracted security provider they can do. No hits? They can attempt to run it through the GSR, but it's very unlikely that registry will have any biometrics on it. And Lone Star isn't going to get anywhere if it requests any Mega share their citizen's biometric data with them. The best they can hope for is if it's high profile enough, the corp in question might search their own records and root out the offender... but probably they'll just quietly delete the record and pretend they never heard of the person.

[Kev]

Technically, Aztechnology is required to share SIN information with the Global SIN registry, not with Lone Star. There's a few points here. First, the SIN is a System Identification Number, which is simply an identifier which contains imbedded data. While most corporations and countries-but certainly not all-will require some level of biometric data to be linked to a SIN in their own files and databases, they do not necessarily share that data with the Global SIN Registry (GSR). I would bet that none of the megas or AAs put their citizen's biometric data up on the GSR, and that very few nations do so.

From Feral Cities:


So, let's say Lone Star has some DNA samples left at a crime scene. They run them through the UCAS SIN registry, which since they are a contracted security provider they can do. No hits? They can attempt to run it through the GSR, but it's very unlikely that registry will have any biometrics on it. And Lone Star isn't going to get anywhere if it requests any Mega share their citizen's biometric data with them. The best they can hope for is if it's high profile enough, the corp in question might search their own records and root out the offender... but probably they'll just quietly delete the record and pretend they never heard of the person.

Well damn, I haven't picked up Feral Cities, so I missed out on that gem! That would seal the deal, then in my eyes. The only way my situation would come up is if you had a criminal SIN, which probably has your biometrics on file (much like a police database now, only more global).

So, in that case... I can't really see too much of a downside of having an authentic SIN. I mean, so long as you're not stupid enough to sit there and buy a crate of ammunition with the thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)