Unorthodox PbP game - an experiment, Discussion Thread Options

[Divine Virus]

If I didn't need to spend my most of my qualities limit on getting more money, I would get exceptional attribute and go for response 10. Ah well, I can live with response 9 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, do you think there will be many actual runs in this game, or mostly interaction between runners and npcs and the like?

[Fuchs]

That depends on the NPCs created and played, and the goals of NPCs and PCs alike. I do expect both action and interaction. In the interest of keeping the characters more or less in the same time frame, runs might get a bit more abstracted than usual - with less micro-managing, and more "cut scenes" on runs (including other jobs, such as pirate heists, security jobs, etc.)

[ReverendMo]

Well, created the character and wrote him up on the wiki for all to peruse... Definitely a fan of the karma build, it is a lot more skill friendly! At least, as long as I didn't mess anything up too bad. Rechecked the math a few times, but being at work means distractions are par for the course.

[overchord]

Off-hand I'd say that the facility can serve as a toolkit or such for ground vehicles, but not as a facility for ground vehicles.

That sounds entirely sensible to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Will post char once i get it finished

[Glyph]

I agree that free spirits and AIs are broken if they get their "race" for free, considering that it normally costs either 250 BP or 110 BP - it should be treated like a special quality, instead, the way they do for drakes and the infected.

Charging other metatypes double the BP cost in karma, though, makes them pretty much nonviable as characters. If we adopt this house rule, I'll probably ditch Syren and make a human character.

[Fuchs]

Could you explain that, Glyph? I honestly do not see how basically applying the same cost metaraces cost in BP gen to Karma gen makes them nonviable. I mean, if one rebuilt "elf" through qualities, the 2 exceptional attributes it has over human (assuming agility and edge cancel each other out) alone would cost 80 karma. That's more than the 60 an elf costs by this house rule - and elves are considered to be "overpriced" in BP gen.

[Divine Virus]

Well, it costs more karma for metatypes to upgrade their stats. How many trolls are going to be able to afford to upgrade their body stat? Elves to pump their charisma when they are paying 60+ karma for their metatype?
They get boosted stats, but they pay proportionately more for further increases. That is why metatype normally increases the karma limit they can spend on stats, and get the metatype for free; so they can afford to increase their stats above racial minimum. Perhaps a better solution would simply be to make AIs pay double karma for their attributes, since their only have 4 instead of 8. As for free spirits I don't know- I only got the runners companion recently, and haven't read most of it.

[Glyph]

The exceptional Attribute thing doesn't matter much to me (and I think it's overpriced as a quality). I would rather have 60 points of skills and stuff to start out with, than have 80 points worth of "extra potential". An elf gets a net gain of 15 Karma over a human. But a Charisma of 7 costs 24 points more than a Charisma of 5 for a human. So I'm losing a net 45 points for the privilege of buying higher Attributes at a higher cost.

Maybe it's because I already had her stats down - I would rather start over, than take a finished character and gut 60 points out of it; everything is too solid at that point.

Probably a moot point now. I think I like the SURGED human I'm working on better, so even if we don't adopt that house rule, I'll still likely wind up playing a human. Similar to karmagen Syren in a lot of ways - face, dancer, secondary combat specialty. The SURGE adds a nice extra touch of pathos, though, and makes her a bit more unique.

[Fuchs]

They also start at the minimum attributes for their metaraces. A human gains 6 karma there. For an elf or dwarf, that's 21 karma. For an ork, that's 42 karma - or 2 more than the racial cost after house rules. For a troll that's 84, or a net gain of 4 karma.

Now, the example character (Haywire) I posted was made with BP gen, at a cost of 420 BP (+free contacs). I just recalculated the costs in karma gen, and they add up to 497 (without contacts). I would consider that character a viable character, and it still has 250 karma points left to spend. Enough to turn her into an elf, and hard max both agility and charisma, and have almost 50 karma left - more than enough for say getting skills of 6 in spellcasting and automatics.
(That wouldn't be exactly a wise use of those ressources, but it illustrates what can be done with karma gen.)

[Divine Virus]

I tried to say what he said, but he said it much, much better. BTW, did you know that there is a vehicle mod for anthropods that gives it recoil 3? I didn't until now. My character just got more dangerous.
She will nicely cover firepower. If we are ever running as a team, she can have that covered.

[Fuchs]

Considering surge: If picking neagive metagenic qualities, please pick something that can't be easily fixed with cyber- or bioware if the character wanted to. I simply don't see how feathers, or extravagant eyes, or mood hair, or scales, or scent glands would not be fixed by simple and cheap surgery. I know the rules say they can't be bought off if unwanted, but I can't really think of any explanation that would make that possible without breaking immersion.

As a matter of fact, I'd rather treat surged as a metarace, costing 10 to 30 karma, and offering 20 to 60 karma in free metagenic qualities, dropping the "mandatory negative qualities" (could still be picked for flavor), and add some "freak factor" that's mostly applying to astral observers, who see from the aura that the character is surged (unless masked).

But, to take an example, having a character with unwanted extravagant eyes that can't be replaced by cybereyes, or unwanted mood hair that can't be dyed, cut, or replaced by fiberoptic hair just rubs me the wrong way.

[Glyph]

Whether they could potentially be "fixed" or not, unusual hair, skin, etc. is a big part of SURGE, that it makes the character look kind of unusual and unique. But if you want to treat it as the equivalent of a metatype, that's fine too. Won't make a functional difference, since the hair/eyes/skin is not something I plan to have her change - she's past the "I'm a freak" part and into the "This is who I am" thing, and it's also something I plan to keep even if it's "optional". The only SURGE negative quality outside of the SURGE limits, her bioluminescense, is one that couldn't be fixed easily with 'ware.

[Fuchs]

That works fine, Glyph.

Also, when you make your characters, please think about how relatively powerful NPCs should be in comparision. Going from this baseline:

Well, I would call a "runners average" 10 dice for their favoured firearm (smartlink2 + agility 4 +skill 4)
A more normal average I would call 5 dice (agility 3, firarms 1, lasersight 1)
I think in general, most skills tap out around 15 dice. 15 is the best. Except for adepts, of course, and TMs with anything computer related, and firearm skills. So I would rank it like this
Poor: 3 dice
Average: 5 dice
Professional: 8 dice
Skilled Professional 10 dice
Elite 12 dice
Master 15 dice.
Again, for computers, firearms, and anything an adept does, this baseline is skewed.

A big appeal for me is the interaction between PCs and NPCs, the "waves" people make, so to speak, the consequences their actions have. If GM for a face that can charm the pants off everyone else on the island, then I want to play that out, see how far the character goes, what powerbase he builds and how, not enforce some "you still are shadowrunner scum no matter your skills and talents" limit. The advantage in not having an enforced team structure for a game is that both the street rat struggling to survive and the gang lord making a bid for control of the city have their place, since they are not expected to be equal runners in the same team.
But before I send the corporate extraction teams paid by Horizon's music division to grab the second coming of Elvis I'd like to be sure that the player too considers his musician to be world class, and worth such attention - and not just a talented but not exceptional street musician.

[Fuchs]

Or, to say it a bit differently: When you formulate your characters goals, also think about why those goals were not yet reached. If the character is a pornomancer wanting to marry rich, why didn't he/she succeed yet? Is it because the character has some inherent bad luck, has much too high expectations, or is that sort of charisma and skill normal among the target demographic? If your character dreams of his own ship and would do anything for that, and has enough skills at arm to take over the ship he's currently on, why doesn't he? Loyality to the current captain? Code of honor? Or do ohers have the same skills at arm?

It's important to know where the character stands in the world. How many equally powerful/skilled, how many more powerful/skilled are in the quarter, city, island?

[Divine Virus]

can we figure out what we are going to do about the AI racial karma cost? Cause I can't even start until we have that sorted.
Personally I am in favour of only doubling karma cost for attributes.

[Fuchs]

In my pen and paper group, we have the following character generation rules: Everyone makes the character they want, without any consideration of points and starting limits, but everyone has veto power to make sure the end results are ok with everyone.

Frankly, given the unorthodox set up, I think it would be best to simply drop all character generation limits and systems and let you all just write up the characters you want, according to what system, if any, you want, then post them, and then we can see what adjustments if any need to be done (like in case two characters are supposed to be in the same "power class" yet their stats do not reflect this).

So, here it is, for everyone: Just write up your character. Give him, her or it what you think your concept needs. And then spend some time figuring out how powerful relative to the world and Jamaica your character should be.

[Divine Virus]

Sounds good to me.

[Fuchs]

As an explanation for this decision: The game is unorthodox, and much more freeform than the usual "Team gets on run" game. So, I need to get people to break the usual habits of trying to get the most out of the system, and get used to set their own course - and limits. Or the game will break apart very quickly because there are not many limits in game.

And I was not kidding about the extraction team. If your character is a world class musician then I need some good reasons why he's playing in a dinky nightclub for tips and not constantly hounded by fans, managers and corp reps. I have no problem accomodating Elvis Mark II (or Bob Marley III) living on Jamaica, his villa being a tourist attraction, creating a small mob whereever he visits, and having to disguise himself to get out of the cameras for some privacy, and to indulge in his adrenalin addiction as a pirate, for example. I have no trouble handling "Don Juan Reborn" flirting, seducing and plotting his way to the top, aiming first for control of Kingston, then Jamaica, and then further.

But I don't really want to adjust the whole world so a DP of 15 becomes the new average just so someone can play an "average runner" with superhuman stats.

[Divine Virus]

Here is what I want to do with the Inquilline Protocol. I want to look for Sadie Rose (see background a few pages ago). I want to be able to pursue her whereabouts ruthlessly (but not stupidly), and I want to take any means necessary. This means that the Iquilline protocol might be doing some hireling if her skill set can't cover what it needs to do.
As for what it can do...
The Inquilline protocol, even with only a 750 point build, is just about world class for firepower. It can fire two FN P93s with high velocity mods on full auto and still get a decent positive dice pool (I think around 6 dice?). When fully armoured its body shrugs off all attacks that do less then 16P damage.
Because it is an AI, it has some hacking skills, and because it mimics humans, it has some social skills.
But really this just means that it needs to hold back, least red flags start going up everywhere.
Bottum line is, though, if the Inquilline Protocol needs to steal hardcopy data from a corperate enclave, it will. If it needs to infilrate the mob and rise in its ranks, it will. If it needs to become the head of the Jamaican under, the Inquilline protocol will do so, or die trying.
Of course, this puts a burden on the GMs to come up with some good story for what happened to Sadie Rose. They don't need to decide now. You all could just give the Inquilline Protocol a large and broad clue that will take forever to fully follow up on, or that requires some great feat to pull off, like the above examples.

[Fuchs]

I already have ideas about Sadie's fate, so that's not a problem. IP is also an A.I., and therefore there's more leeway due to its alien thinking when confronted with the question "Why wouldn't it simply do X?"

Built in limits for IP are also maintenance requirements, and the resulting dependencies.

[Divine Virus]

Oh GOD yes. Especially because it is my home node.

Basic maintenance cost is 2000 a week, plus an additional amount for the wear and tear that comes from it being my homenode. I think an Otomo has a device rating of 3, yes? Actually, that isn't so bad. I think that only puts me at about 10k a month.
Of course, it costs my thousands of nuyen to repair each box of damage.
If the Otomo does not have a device rating, then I am dealing with almost 100k nuyen in repairs each month...
Which means that IP would have to be pulling some serious crime and be a prime running just to keep up with the bills. Which she might be capible of if I built her a little stronger/more versicle then I originally intended.

[Fuchs]

I was not that much thinking about the nuyen costs, but more about the needs to get spare parts, maybe even help, to maintain the frame. That means developping ties, contacts and channels.

[Divine Virus]

Yes it does. Do you want me to be a fresh arrival in Kingstown? A fresh of the plane, no local contacts type thing?

[Fuchs]

That's entirely up to you.

[Glyph]

My opinion of skill vs. being on top of the world is that simply having mad skillz doesn't automatically make you successful. Conversely, there are also plenty of dimwits who become corporate VIPs, lip-synching barbie dolls who become pop idols, etc. Success takes a certain mindset, clear goals, or sometimes a measure of luck. Which can include being born in the right population demographic or moving in the right circles.

So I think there will be world class target shooters who are plunking tin cans or shooting raccoons out in the bayou, Hemmingway-level writers who fritter away their talent writing anime slash fanfics, and so on.

That said, I do agree that there should be reasons for a character capable of incredible feats to not be as successful as it seems they should be. In the SURGEling's case, it's a mix of being SINless and facing prejudice, as well as some personality traits. That's not to say that her circumstances couldn't change - going from dancing in a sleazy club as a new arrival to Jamaica, to headlining a burlesque show in an exclusive nightclub for the rich and jaded. Or becoming some kind of power player in the underworld with her face abilities. Like the Inquilline Protocol, I think she will work best as a recent arrival.