 Foci & Astral Projection, Does it work? |
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 Jan 8 2004, 06:23 AM
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#26
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Yeah well, granted you actually have to be an Initiate in order to undertake an Astral Quest (which differs from just visiting the Metaplanes via an Astral Gateway) in the first place.
What new body? Where is it coming from? All this assuming you can just pop into a Metaplane whenever you want. |
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Jan 8 2004, 06:39 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
very valid points my friend however (theirs always a however isnt their) 1. it dosent have to be visiting a metaplane on a whim. you can just go on a really easy guests and keep going on them as long as is needed. 2. id like to introduce you to mirace of cloning my friend. if they can clone an arm that was blown off to replacce the essence that was lost im sure they could clone you a new body for your astral form to inhabbit. if they can bind a soul to a robotic body like they domwith cyber zombies im sure they could do something simmilar in this case |
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Jan 8 2004, 06:46 AM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My initial point was that I wasn't sure whether you can initiate an Astral Quest while already Projecting. It may very well be that an Astral Quest has to be undertaken in a specific manner, as they don't follow the normal Projection rules.
Shadowrun canon is quite specific about what can and cannot be cloned in the Sixth World. IIRC, it isn't possible to clone the brain or spinal column. full body replacement clones are not a part of Shadowrun canon. Assuming it could be done though, how are you going to organize getting the clone made? |
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Jan 8 2004, 06:56 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
ill have to read up on that when i have the books sunday or monday.
how do they justify this? we are almost on the verge of doing this now.
simple :nuyen: and friends. |
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Jan 8 2004, 07:01 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The technology and knowhow was lost in the Crash of '29.
How are you going to organize everything from the Astral? Where is that viable sample coming from that is needed for cloning? |
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Jan 8 2004, 07:21 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
that's pretty stupid of them. we have the technology to clone full bodies now any we still havent figured out how to clone individual body parts. and they are saying that we lost the tech to clone full bodies but we can clone individual arms, legs kidney 's and such. that makes absolutely no sense.
you could use a tissue sample from your freshly dead body things like hair and stuff still carry DNA and dont die as quickly as the rest of you would and give instructions on what to do before you goto the metaplanes. sorry about my slow response im typing on a touch screen comp is in the shop. |
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Jan 8 2004, 07:34 AM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 28-August 03 Member No.: 5,551 |
P. 92, MITS seems to imply this pretty strongly, although in no place does it specifically state that you cannot project to a metaplane while already projecting. I guess this is a "read it as you will" issue.
Actually, IIRC this is a 2ed throwback.
Which, along with other things, strongly implies that cloning is up to par. Granted, clones of magicians are not considered magical themselves (same book, same page), but rather independant entities, so re-posessing one is still out of the picture. You might want to stop by your friendly neighborhood delta clinic and see if they have any cyberzombies, though. An astral form posessing one is in it more or less for "to death do us part", and if the posessor and the zombie are both on good terms with each other, I can see them being a scary combo. |
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Jan 8 2004, 07:43 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
thanks for the info. but that still dosent explain how they cannot clone brains and a spine.
they would have to become an npc after that. a magically active cyberzombie would be extremely scary and almost unstoppable. |
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Jan 8 2004, 07:55 AM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Canon says that you "must project directly to the metaplane". I don't think it relies on any interpretation.
Anyway, I think it'd still be cool for a particularly powerful mage to hop into a metaplane and do something about his death from there. He might hop into the home metaplane of an old ally spirit gone free, contact them there, and charge/ask them to carry out some of his last wishes. He might also go on some super-high level quest to maintain his life somehow. Perhaps he has a particular affinity to this plane and gets to live at the citadel indefinitely, revisiting earth as a projecting mage for an hour once a year or something. I think it's a cool idea if done with style. Reinhabiting a cloned body is pretty cheesy, though. It gets a thumbs-down from me. |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:07 AM
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#35
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It does specifically state somewhere in SR3 that viable, whole clones cannot be created because of the lack of ability to clone the brain (or brain stem...or spinal column...or?). I don't recall exactly where though.
If your former body is still a viable source. This still does nothing towards actually acquiring the money, setting up the procedure, etc, etc. |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:08 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I was sure I remembered something along those lines. :) |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:12 AM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Actually there are examples in novels where people have projected from the astral plane into the metaplanes. Admittantly I am referring to Harley and his chummer in the "Beyond The Pale" novel, but there is nothing in the the Astral Quest section of MitS about having to project directly to a metaplane (at-least not that I can find).
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Jan 8 2004, 08:20 AM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Harly is a special case, as he was a very proficient Nethermancer in the Fourth World. He can move his physical body into the Astral. If I'm not mistaken, he also has an ability similar to the Free Spirit Astral Gateway Power.
Zazen's quote above pretty much covers the limitation on Astral Quests. |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:33 AM
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#39
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
OK, then I suppose that dual natured PCs cannot project into the metaplanes since they are always on the astral and you cannot go through the astral into the metaplanes. |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:40 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
what is their reason for not being able to? it makes no sense at all. DNA contains the blueprint for all parts of the body and it dosent matter where the DNA came from weather it be from your skin kidney eye ect its all the same DNA.
it wouldn't be hard to set up simply tell a trusted friend to set it up. and how much would this cost anyway? |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:51 AM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
A dual-natured creature is not projecting. When they project, they must go directly to the metaplane. |
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| Guest_Artemis_* |
Jan 8 2004, 09:11 AM
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#42
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Guests |
The cloning issue made me consider something else.
What about a mage or shaman initiate with the metamagic power of Possession? What if their body was destroyed and they took over another astrally projecting/perceiving body? Would their essence continue to burn off or would they be able to live and grow indefinitely through this method of ‘Body Hopping’? |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:16 AM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
My take:
1) You can only project to the metaplanes if you are in your body (either astrally perceiving or not). 2) I would allow an astral mage to seek out a spirit with astral gateway power to bring the mage to the spirit's home metaplane, however. (non-canon, but not explicitöy forbidden anywhere I believe) 3) Harlequin was not a Nethermancer - he was a Swordmaster/Wizard. He was also probably a Lightbearer, however, and Lighbearers of the 15th level can also bodily enter astral space, and even take other people with them(!). 4) Harlequin performed a ritual of some sort to bring others on the astral quest in Harlequin's Back - it required a site of power, I believe. Dragons can do that too, it seems, but with less effort. (See SoTF). 5) Maybe there's a metamagical technique unknown to the world at large that allows you to project to a metaplane from the astral? 6) Since it apparently is stated that full body cloning is viable and the body becomes a separate entity (mentally, at least - wonder if you can use ritual sorcery on a clone to locate it's original copy? If so, then what about identical twins or other in vitrio 'clones'?) my thoughts are as follows: The body is not considered magically active (they can't copy those magical genes apparently) and can therefore not be possessed. Hence, the magician has no way of entering his 'clone' and so even cybermancy can't make him stay there. It could however, make him bound to someone elses body if they already had the rituals performed on them. But for this to work the dying mage must both have the metamagical technique of Possession, and an Essence high enough to find a cyberzombie or have someone prepare one for him before he dies. |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:18 AM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It doesn't have a cost in canon because it isn't doable in canon. As to telling a trusted friend, that'd mean you have to set it up beforehand. He isn't going to be able to access your money, so he'll have to pay for it himself. I'm not going to argue about the cloning. I'm only answering about what I remember from canon. |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:19 AM
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#45
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Hey, the 2 or more magicians could even share the same body... Talk about split personalities |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:22 AM
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#46
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you say so, but I have heard differently. There is no probably about Harly being a Lightbearer though. That's a definite. |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:25 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I read through the chapter on Possession, and since you can stay in another body for your Initiate Grade hours, I'd say 'yes' - your Initiate Grade can certainly be higher than your Essence, and there is nothing whatsoever in the Possession chapter that uses Essence as a limit. So, it seems that according to canon you could use Possession to prolong your life if your physical body is killed. |
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| Guest_Artemis_* |
Jan 8 2004, 09:35 AM
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#48
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Guests |
Facinating... making a deal with someone to share your body, or having to give it over by force. Theoretically if they controlled the body for their Initiate grade in hours, jumped out and then back in —or spent time renewing their ability to possess— then they could recover lost essence once they are comfortably back on the saddle again.
That would take some GM approval and open mindedness. But would also take a very willing friend or follower to allow it to be done. |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:35 AM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Not sure which you have heard differently about, but here goes... The Blood Wood, pg.63: "Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court is Caimbueul, a swordmaster and wizard adept." Of course, he may have had the time to study the Nethermancer discipline too... but I've never seen proof of that anywhere (going to check AH's site and see what I can find on the matter though) ED Companion pg.113: "The Astral Shift ability allows a Lightbearer's entire being - physical, mental, and spiritual - to enter the astral soace and reemerge into the physical world at a new location. [...] A Lightbearer may take any other Lightbearer or Oathtaker characters who are touching him into astral space with him." |
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Jan 8 2004, 11:08 AM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Not quite my take. The ritual described was extremely similar to the ritual he had used previously to take the dragonheart wholly onto the astral plane, and was also performed on burnout which allowed him to be transferred also. I'm not saying that the same ritual wasn't used to take the group to the metaplanes but the fact that there was a ritual involved dosen't mean that a ritual is needed to access the metaplanes from the astral plane. I repeat that I couldn't find a mention of the "must project directly into the metaplanes" in the brief flick through the astral quest section in MitS i did earlier. I'll have another look when I get back as it does sound familiar but I don't know from where. |
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