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Lilt
If I had a sustaining focus that was sustaining an Increase Charisma spell, then astrally projected, what happens?

Do I keep the effect of the spell?
or
Do I lose the effect of the spell?

If I lose the effect of the spell:
Does the effect return once I get back to my meatbod?
or
Does the focus deactivate and I need to cast the spell again?

I think it primarily depends on wether you can take the astral form of any foci (not only weapon foci) with you when you project, it also depends on wether you only cast the spell on your physical body or your astral body. Similar questions could be asked about taking the astral forms of other foci such as Power and Specific Spell foci with you when you project.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Lilt)
I think it primarily depends on wether you can take the astral form of any foci (not only weapon foci) with you when you project, it also depends on wether you only cast the spell on your physical body or your astral body.

Can you Manabolt the body of a projecting mage?

I'd allow (almost) all Foci to be used while projecting. No idea whether that's canon, but it certainly makes sense if you can use Weapon Foci. The only one I'm not sure about is Sustaining Focus + Improved Reflexes, and Improve BOD/QUI/STR (although that won't matter much to the projecter, and I'd allow the effect to return when the projection ends).
toturi
I allow all foci and sustained spells. If not, you'll have to make special exceptions for certain spells like Astral Armour or Astral Barrier.
Fortune
As far as I know, any and all Foci accompany an Astrally Projecting mage. I don't recall canon listing any exceptions to this rule.
hobgoblin
the easyes is to say that achoring or spell sustaing ones stay with the body but the power and weapon ones (atleast the magic in them) go with the mage. this way you avoid a snakepit of exploits.

the other way to look at it is that the physical body and the astral one is connected as any damage done to the astral one will be reflected on the physical one. then you can say that the amgic kinda splits (in lack of a better term) so that if you have a armor spell sustained on the body then you allso have it sustained on the astral form. but then if someone messes with the physical foci (likesay removeing it) expect it to fail in the astral to.

it all boils down to logic, and trying to preserve it...
Lilt
I was basing the assumption that they did not follow on the fact that the ability of mages to take the astral form with him is only mentioned under weapon foci.
hobgoblin
ok now the power foci modifys the magic rating fo the user directly so there isnt mutch of a problem bringing that one along (just describe it as a extra glow on the aura with maybe a very bright spot around where the physical foci was located). the realy icky part starts with the spell sustaining one...

as for why the weapon foci is specialy talked about? it enables the user to trade in his astral combat damage for that of a weapon...
Sphynx
In my games, all foci (and non-area Sustained Spells) go with the Astrally Projecting mage.

Sphynx
sidekick
I wouldn't see why any spell in a sustaining focus wouldn't remain with the mage. It would make spells like Astral Armor nearly pointless if you couldn't (since you would be forced to cast them in the Astral Plane, most likely causing real physical damage). Remember that the astral body and the physical body are still linked magically... hence a focus in contact with one would count as in contact with the other.

Sphynx -- wouldn't sustained spells get dropped, since projecting is an exclusive action?
Sphynx
Was referring to such things as Quickening, Elementals, Allys, Foci etc.... Yes, you couldn't personally sustain a spell while projecting.

Sphynx
Sargrak
I 'd say the mana spells are going with the mage, and all sustaining focuses too. The physicals effects stay with the body.

As for manabolting the body of the astrally projecting mage, that's a good one. I'd say no, since the affected "thing" isn't there.
OurTeam
From the book under Astral Attributes:
QUOTE (SR3 p. 173 @ top left corner)
Modifications to your Mental Attributes from spells, cyberware, and other sources do affect the abilities of your astral form.

The astral forms of your foci and fetishes go with you into astral space. Non-magical gear stays with your physical body.
Since modifications to mental attributes from cyberware affects your astral form, then modifications from spells cast and sustained on the physical plane should do so as well.

One could even argue that physical spells, not just mana ones, should give you their bonus as they should be just as effective as cyberware. Personally, I don't think I'd allow it, as it just feels wrong.
Herald of Verjigorm
What physical spells would provide any functional benefit in the astral?
OurTeam
I'm thinking of Increase Cybered Intelligence.
Joker9125
heres a few thoughts. If the magical part of the focui goes with the projecting mage it would make sense that the physical portion of it becomes temporarly mundane. Whut happens if the mundane part of the focui was physically removed from the body while the person was projecting? Would you lose the effect of it while projecting? or would is simply be like a mage who lost his body type deal you have so long to find the physical focui or it is destroyed. Also along these lines what happens if a mage dies while projecting? Would the focui also die because they are with him on the astral and unable to return with him to their physical forms or would they simply automatically return to their physical forms?
Lilt
To the first part: by the standard rules if a focus is removed from the character's person then it deactivates. I don't see any problem with continuing that so that if a character's foci is stolen whilst projecting the immediately deactivate thus the astral form vanishes from the astral.

As for the mage dieing, IMHO the foci would simply deactivate. If other weird stuff happened then I think it'd be in the rules.
Zazen
I let people choose which foci to take with them. I've thought quite a bit about it and I find this to be the easiest and most elegant route.
Hasaku
Not to be a nitpicker (even though I am...)

You're so close to getting it right, Joker. A lot of people here say "foci" when they really mean "focus." You, on the other hand, say " focui." At least it's closer than most smile.gif. You see, focus is the singular form. Foci is the plural form. Let's try an exercise.

Bob has a focus. Bob buys another focus. Bob now has two foci.

Thank you. This has been another lesson from the Anal Retentive School for Calling Imaginary Things By Their Proper Names.
Kagetenshi
Ok Hasaku, try this one:

Bob has one virus. Bob gets another virus. What does Bob now have?

On a side note, while I don't like the implications of it most of the time, the idea of the astral forms of foci getting "lost" on the Astral is intriguing... maybe I'll have a special focus that needs its astral form tracked down and restored to be used...

~J
RangerJoe
Actually, in earlier medical parlance, Bob would have two virii. "Virii" has been dropped lately, as it has been found that latin freaks out patients. Something about the kinder, gentler face of modern medicine.

I got my players to say "focus" when they mean "focus" and not "foci" by hitting them with my GM staff (which is not a weapon focus.... yet.... now where am I going to get some orichalicum....). Adding a set of sharp antlers to the staff really sped up their progress.

It would be interesting to have some sort of "astral quest" to bond such a focus, perhaps reducing the karma cost to bond the "lost and found" focus.
Hasaku
Bob has to buy a replacement deck nyahnyah.gif

Oh, and he has two viruses according to dictionary.com, but I prefer "virii". Alas, my mini-beef was not with plural forms specifically; it was with confusing the singular and plural.

On topic: we know that the physical body still "matters" when astrally projecting, as damage manifests both ways. So you're still linked to your physical form. For that reason, I'd say the physical focus needs to be in contact with your physical body, and your astral form carries the focus's astral form, which should at least be shaped like the focus, especially for weapon foci. Take a focus from a mage's limp hands, and he'll know it instantly as its astral form disappears and reappears with its physical form. Treat the focus as you do whenever an active focus loses contact with its user.
Prototype
Damage doesn't go both ways... you can kill a mage's body whilst he's astrally projecting and it'll have no ill effect on his astral form - but he only has Essence hours to get his revenge!
Joker9125
heres an idea if your body has been killed and your running out of time why not just make a quick trip to the metaplanes to buy yourself some more time. since essence loss rules dont apply while on an astral quest.
Fortune
Don't quote me, but I seem to recall something about Astral Quests having to be specifically initiated as such, and not merely a jaunt from the Astral on a whim.

Besides, what are you buying time for? It isn't like you can contact friends or construct a new body from the Metaplanes.
Joker9125
QUOTE (Fortune)
Don't quote me, but I seem to recall something about Astral Quests having to be specifically initiated as such, and not merely a jaunt from the Astral on a whim.

Besides, what are you buying time for? It isn't like you can contact friends or construct a new body from the Metaplanes.

sorry about quoting you wink.gif

but im ptty sure that you ability to visit the metaplanes has something to do with you're initation grade. i wasnt thinking about having a new body made but t ats a really good idea. just visit a metaplain and dick around until you new body is ready. what is everyone's thoughts on this?
Fortune
QUOTE (Joker9125)
but im ptty sure that you ability to visit the metaplanes has something to do with you're initation grade.

Yeah well, granted you actually have to be an Initiate in order to undertake an Astral Quest (which differs from just visiting the Metaplanes via an Astral Gateway) in the first place.
QUOTE
i wasnt thinking about having a new body made but t ats a really good idea.  just visit a metaplain and dick around until you new body is ready.

What new body? Where is it coming from? All this assuming you can just pop into a Metaplane whenever you want.
Joker9125
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Joker9125 @ Jan 8 2004, 04:58 PM)
but im ptty sure that you ability to visit the metaplanes has something to do with you're initation grade.

Yeah well, granted you actually have to be an Initiate in order to undertake an Astral Quest (which differs from just visiting the Metaplanes via an Astral Gateway) in the first place.
QUOTE
i wasnt thinking about having a new body made but t ats a really good idea.  just visit a metaplain and dick around until you new body is ready.

What new body? Where is it coming from? All this assuming you can just pop into a Metaplane whenever you want.

very valid points my friend however (theirs always a however isnt their)

1. it dosent have to be visiting a metaplane on a whim. you can just go on a really easy guests and keep going on them as long as is needed.

2. id like to introduce you to mirace of cloning my friend. if they can clone an arm that was blown off to replacce the essence that was lost im sure they could clone you a new body for your astral form to inhabbit. if they can bind a soul to a robotic body like they domwith cyber zombies im sure they could do something simmilar in this case
Fortune
QUOTE (Joker9125 @ Jan 8 2004, 05:39 PM)
it dosent have to be visiting a metaplane on a whim.  you can just go on a really easy guests and keep going on them as long as is needed.

My initial point was that I wasn't sure whether you can initiate an Astral Quest while already Projecting. It may very well be that an Astral Quest has to be undertaken in a specific manner, as they don't follow the normal Projection rules.
QUOTE
id like to introduce you to mirace of cloning my friend.  if they can clone an arm that was blown off to replacce the essence that was lost im sure they could clone you a new body for your astral form to inhabbit.  if they can bind a soul to a robotic body like they domwith cyber zombies im sure they could do something  simmilar in this case

Shadowrun canon is quite specific about what can and cannot be cloned in the Sixth World. IIRC, it isn't possible to clone the brain or spinal column. full body replacement clones are not a part of Shadowrun canon.

Assuming it could be done though, how are you going to organize getting the clone made?
Joker9125
QUOTE
My initial point was that I wasn't sure whether you can initiate an Astral Quest while already Projecting. It may very well be that an Astral Quest has to be undertaken in a specific manner, as they don't follow the normal Projection rules.


ill have to read up on that when i have the books sunday or monday.

QUOTE
Shadowrun canon is quite specific about what can and cannot be cloned in the Sixth World. IIRC, it isn't possible to clone the brain or spinal column. full body replacement clones are not a part of Shadowrun canon.


how do they justify this? we are almost on the verge of doing this now.

QUOTE
Assuming it could be done though, how are you going to organize getting the clone made?


simple

nuyen.gif and friends.
Fortune
QUOTE (Joker9125)
how do they justify this? we are almost on the verge of doing this now.


The technology and knowhow was lost in the Crash of '29.
QUOTE
simple...nuyen and friends.

How are you going to organize everything from the Astral? Where is that viable sample coming from that is needed for cloning?
Joker9125
QUOTE
The technology and knowhow was lost in the Crash of '29.


that's pretty stupid of them. we have the technology to clone full bodies now any we still havent figured out how to clone individual body parts. and they are saying that we lost the tech to clone full bodies but we can clone individual arms, legs kidney 's and such. that makes absolutely no sense.

QUOTE
How are you going to organize everything from the Astral? Where is that viable sample coming from that is needed for cloning?


you could use a tissue sample from your freshly dead body things like hair and stuff still carry DNA and dont die as quickly as the rest of you would and give instructions on what to do before you goto the metaplanes.

sorry about my slow response im typing on a touch screen comp is in the shop.
Anymage
QUOTE (Fortune)
My initial point was that I wasn't sure whether you can initiate an Astral Quest while already Projecting. It may very well be that an Astral Quest has to be undertaken in a specific manner, as they don't follow the normal Projection rules.


P. 92, MITS seems to imply this pretty strongly, although in no place does it specifically state that you cannot project to a metaplane while already projecting. I guess this is a "read it as you will" issue.

QUOTE (Fortune)
Shadowrun canon is quite specific about what can and cannot be cloned in the Sixth World. IIRC, it isn't possible to clone the brain or spinal column. full body replacement clones are not a part of Shadowrun canon.


Actually, IIRC this is a 2ed throwback.
QUOTE (M&M @ P. 140)
Parts cannot be grown individually - an entire cloned body must be grown, which can then be harvested.  Clones of this sort are barely considered metahumans and are usually little more than animals or slabs of living flesh...

Which, along with other things, strongly implies that cloning is up to par.

Granted, clones of magicians are not considered magical themselves (same book, same page), but rather independant entities, so re-posessing one is still out of the picture.

You might want to stop by your friendly neighborhood delta clinic and see if they have any cyberzombies, though. An astral form posessing one is in it more or less for "to death do us part", and if the posessor and the zombie are both on good terms with each other, I can see them being a scary combo.
Joker9125
thanks for the info. but that still dosent explain how they cannot clone brains and a spine.

QUOTE
You might want to stop by your friendly neighborhood delta clinic and see if they have any cyberzombies, though. An astral form posessing one is in it more or less for "to death do us part", and if the posessor and the zombie are both on good terms with each other, I can see them being a scary combo.


they would have to become an npc after that. a magically active cyberzombie would be extremely scary and almost unstoppable.
Zazen
Canon says that you "must project directly to the metaplane". I don't think it relies on any interpretation.


Anyway, I think it'd still be cool for a particularly powerful mage to hop into a metaplane and do something about his death from there. He might hop into the home metaplane of an old ally spirit gone free, contact them there, and charge/ask them to carry out some of his last wishes.

He might also go on some super-high level quest to maintain his life somehow. Perhaps he has a particular affinity to this plane and gets to live at the citadel indefinitely, revisiting earth as a projecting mage for an hour once a year or something.

I think it's a cool idea if done with style. Reinhabiting a cloned body is pretty cheesy, though. It gets a thumbs-down from me.
Fortune
QUOTE (Anymage)
QUOTE (Fortune)
Shadowrun canon is quite specific about what can and cannot be cloned in the Sixth World. IIRC, it isn't possible to clone the brain or spinal column. full body replacement clones are not a part of Shadowrun canon.


Actually, IIRC this is a 2ed throwback.
QUOTE (M&M @ P. 140)
Parts cannot be grown individually - an entire cloned body must be grown, which can then be harvested.  Clones of this sort are barely considered metahumans and are usually little more than animals or slabs of living flesh...

Which, along with other things, strongly implies that cloning is up to par.

It does specifically state somewhere in SR3 that viable, whole clones cannot be created because of the lack of ability to clone the brain (or brain stem...or spinal column...or?). I don't recall exactly where though.
QUOTE (Joker9125)
you could use a tissue sample from your freshly dead body things like hair and stuff still carry DNA and dont die as  quickly as the rest of you would and give instructions on what to do before  you goto the metaplanes.

If your former body is still a viable source. This still does nothing towards actually acquiring the money, setting up the procedure, etc, etc.
Fortune
QUOTE (Zazen)
Canon says that you "must project directly to the metaplane". I don't think it relies on any interpretation.

I was sure I remembered something along those lines. smile.gif
Lilt
Actually there are examples in novels where people have projected from the astral plane into the metaplanes. Admittantly I am referring to Harley and his chummer in the "Beyond The Pale" novel, but there is nothing in the the Astral Quest section of MitS about having to project directly to a metaplane (at-least not that I can find).
Fortune
Harly is a special case, as he was a very proficient Nethermancer in the Fourth World. He can move his physical body into the Astral. If I'm not mistaken, he also has an ability similar to the Free Spirit Astral Gateway Power.

Zazen's quote above pretty much covers the limitation on Astral Quests.
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
Harly is a special case, as he was a very proficient Nethermancer in the Fourth World. He can move his physical body into the Astral. If I'm not mistaken, he also has an ability similar to the Free Spirit Astral Gateway Power.

Zazen's quote above pretty much covers the limitation on Astral Quests.

OK, then I suppose that dual natured PCs cannot project into the metaplanes since they are always on the astral and you cannot go through the astral into the metaplanes.
Joker9125
QUOTE
It does specifically state somewhere in SR3 that viable, whole clones cannot be created because of the lack of ability to clone the brain (or brain stem...or spinal column...or?). I don't recall exactly where though.


what is their reason for not being able to? it makes no sense at all. DNA contains the blueprint for all parts of the body and it dosent matter where the DNA came from weather it be from your skin kidney eye ect its all the same DNA.

QUOTE
If your former body is still a viable source. This still does nothing towards actually acquiring the money, setting up the procedure, etc, etc.


it wouldn't be hard to set up simply tell a trusted friend to set it up. and how much would this cost anyway?
Zazen
QUOTE (toturi)
OK, then I suppose that dual natured PCs cannot project into the metaplanes since they are always on the astral and you cannot go through the astral into the metaplanes.

A dual-natured creature is not projecting. When they project, they must go directly to the metaplane.
Artemis
The cloning issue made me consider something else.

What about a mage or shaman initiate with the metamagic power of Possession? What if their body was destroyed and they took over another astrally projecting/perceiving body? Would their essence continue to burn off or would they be able to live and grow indefinitely through this method of ‘Body Hopping’?
snowRaven
My take:

1) You can only project to the metaplanes if you are in your body (either astrally perceiving or not).

2) I would allow an astral mage to seek out a spirit with astral gateway power to bring the mage to the spirit's home metaplane, however. (non-canon, but not explicitöy forbidden anywhere I believe)

3) Harlequin was not a Nethermancer - he was a Swordmaster/Wizard. He was also probably a Lightbearer, however, and Lighbearers of the 15th level can also bodily enter astral space, and even take other people with them(!).

4) Harlequin performed a ritual of some sort to bring others on the astral quest in Harlequin's Back - it required a site of power, I believe. Dragons can do that too, it seems, but with less effort. (See SoTF).

5) Maybe there's a metamagical technique unknown to the world at large that allows you to project to a metaplane from the astral?

6) Since it apparently is stated that full body cloning is viable and the body becomes a separate entity (mentally, at least - wonder if you can use ritual sorcery on a clone to locate it's original copy? If so, then what about identical twins or other in vitrio 'clones'?) my thoughts are as follows: The body is not considered magically active (they can't copy those magical genes apparently) and can therefore not be possessed. Hence, the magician has no way of entering his 'clone' and so even cybermancy can't make him stay there. It could however, make him bound to someone elses body if they already had the rituals performed on them. But for this to work the dying mage must both have the metamagical technique of Possession, and an Essence high enough to find a cyberzombie or have someone prepare one for him before he dies.
Fortune
QUOTE (Joker9125)
it wouldn't be hard to set up simply tell a trusted friend to set it up. and how much would this cost anyway?

It doesn't have a cost in canon because it isn't doable in canon.

As to telling a trusted friend, that'd mean you have to set it up beforehand. He isn't going to be able to access your money, so he'll have to pay for it himself.


I'm not going to argue about the cloning. I'm only answering about what I remember from canon.
toturi
QUOTE (Artemis)
The cloning issue made me consider something else.

What about a mage or shaman initiate with the metamagic power of Possession? What if their body was destroyed and they took over another astrally projecting/perceiving body? Would their essence continue to burn off or would they be able to live and grow indefinitely through this method of ‘Body Hopping’?

Hey, the 2 or more magicians could even share the same body... Talk about split personalities
Fortune
QUOTE (snowRaven)
Harlequin was not a Nethermancer - he was a Swordmaster/Wizard. He was also probably a Lightbearer, however, and Lighbearers of the 15th level can also bodily enter astral space, and even take other people with them(!).

If you say so, but I have heard differently. There is no probably about Harly being a Lightbearer though. That's a definite.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Artemis)
What about a mage or shaman initiate with the metamagic power of Possession? What if their body was destroyed and they took over another astrally projecting/perceiving body? Would their essence continue to burn off or would they be able to live and grow indefinitely through this method of ‘Body Hopping’?

I read through the chapter on Possession, and since you can stay in another body for your Initiate Grade hours, I'd say 'yes' - your Initiate Grade can certainly be higher than your Essence, and there is nothing whatsoever in the Possession chapter that uses Essence as a limit.

So, it seems that according to canon you could use Possession to prolong your life if your physical body is killed.
Artemis
Facinating... making a deal with someone to share your body, or having to give it over by force. Theoretically if they controlled the body for their Initiate grade in hours, jumped out and then back in —or spent time renewing their ability to possess— then they could recover lost essence once they are comfortably back on the saddle again.

That would take some GM approval and open mindedness. But would also take a very willing friend or follower to allow it to be done.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jan 8 2004, 08:16 PM)
Harlequin was not a Nethermancer - he was a Swordmaster/Wizard. He was also probably a Lightbearer, however, and Lighbearers of the 15th level can also bodily enter astral space, and even take other people with them(!).

If you say so, but I have heard differently. There is no probably about Harly being a Lightbearer though. That's a definite.

Not sure which you have heard differently about, but here goes...

The Blood Wood, pg.63: "Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court is Caimbueul, a swordmaster and wizard adept."

Of course, he may have had the time to study the Nethermancer discipline too... but I've never seen proof of that anywhere (going to check AH's site and see what I can find on the matter though)

ED Companion pg.113: "The Astral Shift ability allows a Lightbearer's entire being - physical, mental, and spiritual - to enter the astral soace and reemerge into the physical world at a new location. [...] A Lightbearer may take any other Lightbearer or Oathtaker characters who are touching him into astral space with him."
Lilt
QUOTE (snowRaven)
4) Harlequin performed a ritual of some sort to bring others on the astral quest in Harlequin's Back - it required a site of power, I believe. Dragons can do that too, it seems, but with less effort. (See SoTF).

Not quite my take. The ritual described was extremely similar to the ritual he had used previously to take the dragonheart wholly onto the astral plane, and was also performed on burnout which allowed him to be transferred also. I'm not saying that the same ritual wasn't used to take the group to the metaplanes but the fact that there was a ritual involved dosen't mean that a ritual is needed to access the metaplanes from the astral plane.

I repeat that I couldn't find a mention of the "must project directly into the metaplanes" in the brief flick through the astral quest section in MitS i did earlier. I'll have another look when I get back as it does sound familiar but I don't know from where.
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