NPC threats, Begging for help Options

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I have something of a dilemma and I was wondering if perhaps I could get some advice. I'm a veteran GM with other systems and I've played Shadowrun enough to know the basics. Recently an important player left a different campaign I was running and people didn't want to continue without him and several of the remaining players requested Shadowrun for the new campaign.

This normally wouldn't be a problem except that some of them have been playing Shadowrun since 2nd edition while I barely caught the tail end of 3rd, and needless to say, when the players have a vastly larger pool of knowledge about a setting then the GM... well, it can pose particular challenges.

The campaign has a relatively large scope in the form an ever more challenging series of seemingly unconnected runs set to the backdrop of a new VITAS-3 outbreak that has Seattle quarantined from the rest of the world and brutally escalating geopolitical tensions. However, to pull this off, I need to invent a seriously thorough range NPC actors, from nuyenless street thugs to a defcon 3 UCAS military alert. I'm cruising along with the unorthodox elements ((though I must lament the 4th ed vehicle building/customization rules in spite of vehicle combats new ease of use)) however, there are certain archetypal threats that I know my players will be expecting and I have no idea what they're typically supposed to be. I don't need stats or anything, just some thematic guidance.

For instance, does anyone know what a "Fast Response Team" is supposed to be? I've seen lots of references to them and I'm told that Lone Star employs them, but I don't know anything about what their purpose, methods or drawbacks might be. Is it a couple of hard core combat monsters that fly in on jetpacks, or is it a team of 20 commando style grunts that rappel out of a chopper? I'm told they are different then SWAT but I don't even know what SWAT in the future entails.

What sort of trouble warrants a visit by the "oh buckets, we're up drek creek now" T-Bird response? They have the fastest speed out of pretty much any of the law enforcement vehicles, so there has to be some reason why they're not always right on top of the runners before anyone else (except maybe the beat cop who was just around the corner) Furthermore, how high can the so called "Low Altitude" vehicles really go? Hovercraft, how high can they hover?

Do gangs have any other tricks besides overwhelming numbers? I know firearms greatly favor the attacker so its a rather surefire strategy, but it would be nice to not need to rely on it.

How commonplace are random magical critters? There doesn't seem to be much information about them. There's certainly no information or rules about having pets (nor skills associated with it). I mean, I can throw in a def corp boss with a barghest on a leash, but I am wondering if there are any critters that are commonly used by security forces.

How do security forces even hope to defend against magical attacks when supposedly only 1% of metahumans are magically active? If only 1 out of 100 security personnel can use magic and I cant throw much more then 10 goons at the players without combat devolving into a dice rolling, slow-paced nightmare, it becomes somewhat difficult to counter a magic heavy group of runners.

P.S.
Any tips on how to sustain a chase, what with all the crash inducing tricks out there such as stop sticks and barrier spells? (shape earth, I'm looking at you...)

I made this avatar but didn't realize I couldn't use it, oh well, I'll share anyway.

[Larme]

I'm not qualified to answer your questions, but I will anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I've always pictured the FRT's primary strategy to involve panther cannons fired out of helicopters or T-Birds. They need superpowered weaponry to drop cybermonsters, but they can't use assault cannons or cluster bombs or anything too imprecise, because they're typically operating in population centers. I think they're pretty much always backed up by air support of the chopper or vectored thrust variety. They probably don't rappel down and try to surround you like SWAT, they're not trying to arrest you, they're trying to explode your head before you do any more damage. If you take shelter in a building, they'd probably try to cover the entrance and then land a team on the roof to flush you out. The FRT, like almost any cops or military, would probably have less cyber than a your near-zobmie samurai, but they'd have lots of training, and the best possible gear, as far as the GM wants to take it. Like I said before, I think of panther cannons as their favorite weapon, but I might expect to see lasers, gauss rifles, and sniper rifles, basically anything that can take out a rampaging cyberpsycho without killing everyone nearby.

Law enforcement probably doesn't respond with a T-bird unless officers try to engage someone and get massacred. If there's a troll who's immune to normal police weaponry, and kills a bunch of cops, then they'll bring out the heavy air support. It would be nice for them to know ahead of time who's a major threat, but the only way they can really tell is by sending in the grunts and seeing if they survive or not. Though I suppose sometimes they'd be able to tell, like when a GMC bulldog, covered in obvious armor, extends an assault cannon turret and starts blowing things up.

As for the maneuverability of LAVs, they're like an advanced version of the Harrier jet. They can move in all directions, they can hover and do vertical take-off and landing by pointing their thrusters in various directions. Size permitting, a skilled LAV pilot could go pretty much anywhere.

Gangs can mess with shadowrunners by doing lots of combat drugs, which can give them such useful traits as high pain tolerance, and extra init passes. Since it's their home turf, they can probably set up booby traps, too. They might have fortified positions as well, letting them set up cross-fires where they have guys firing from windows and such, with lines of sight that deny any cover to the runners. And let's not forget good ol' fashioned molotov cocktails, they can throw these to start fires and herd the runners into the open, or just roast them if they manage to force the runners to take cover in a tight alley.

Remember that one mage with a pager can cover a lot of ground. When an alarm goes off, a mage can show up astrally within a few seconds, and immediately extend counterspelling to the security team, as well as send spirits to engage the team. Also, facilities can be warded, preventing astral infiltration with no mage present. And if the security company is too ghetto to afford a mage, chances are they're in a pretty high background count neighborhood... And they can toss those astral hazing grenades from Arsenal, impeding mages without harming themselves.

[Adarael]

Welcome to the boards, IceKatze! I'll try to answer your question as best I can, though Larme's done a pretty good job already. Let me just say this before I start off, though: even if your players have been playing since 2nd edition and you haven't, you still have the power to surprise them. One of the great advantages of Shadowrun's incredibly rich world is that there's plenty of wiggle room for you to put your own stuff in it, or spin existing content with your own style. That said, let me parrot Larme...

For instance, does anyone know what a "Fast Response Team" is supposed to be? I've seen lots of references to them and I'm told that Lone Star employs them, but I don't know anything about what their purpose, methods or drawbacks might be. Is it a couple of hard core combat monsters that fly in on jetpacks, or is it a team of 20 commando style grunts that rappel out of a chopper? I'm told they are different then SWAT but I don't even know what SWAT in the future entails.

Like Larme said, it's a T-bird or helicopter based attack team that is unafraid to unload assault cannons and other heavy weapons on an area. Lone Star FRTs generally number between 6 and 8 members on the ground, and are dispatched to high threat incidents. They operate a lot like a Rainbow 6 game team: like a SWAT team that kills you rather than arrests you. Think of them as an airborne SWAT team - not a movie style SWAT team that gets gunned down by Bruce Willis, but a real SWAT team, and all the overwhelming firepower that generally represents. An FRT will generally arrive via a T-bird, though in some cases they may arrive via ground-based APC, especially if they may need to bring along some backup troops. Every FRT team has at least one spellcaster, and they're pretty elite. Generally the mage will be at least initiate grade 1, and will often quicken spells on their teammates. Don't be afraid to make the FRT a bunch of thugs that can waste your players if they're not smart: that's what they're for.

What sort of trouble warrants a visit by the "oh buckets, we're up drek creek now" T-Bird response? They have the fastest speed out of pretty much any of the law enforcement vehicles, so there has to be some reason why they're not always right on top of the runners before anyone else (except maybe the beat cop who was just around the corner) Furthermore, how high can the so called "Low Altitude" vehicles really go? Hovercraft, how high can they hover?

Large explosions, running automatic gunfire, protracted gang fights, breaches in high-security locations like AAA zones or corporate facilities. LAVs are too expensive and too expensive to operate to be everywhere at once. Think of them like the LAPD's helicopters - if one's on you, you're pretty much hosed, but there just aren't a lot of them. Don't forget that they can just send out some VTOL drones that get there almost as fast, too - which should be SOP unless you need guns big enough to play Battle of Stalingrad with. As to their max ceiling, I believe they were listed as having a max ceiling of 500 meters in SR2, though at the cost of massively increased fuel consumption. Not that they're exactly 'green' to begin with.

Do gangs have any other tricks besides overwhelming numbers? I know firearms greatly favor the attacker so its a rather surefire strategy, but it would be nice to not need to rely on it.

Here's the thing about gangs taking on runners: think like a gang member. If they know their target is competent, they're gonna draw the runners into their home turf. Not only would they likely get the mechanical bonus from the "Home Turf" merit, but they'll have defenses in place. For example:
1) Hardened sniper positions made from cut up dumpsters and abandoned buildings;
2) Barricades of trashed cars, scrap metal, etc, that can be used to block entrances and exits...
3) Claymores down the alleys that they can't block - claymores the GANG knows about, but not the runners...
4) AR to show where they are, and where the runners are, who's down, what's going on, etc. (To be fair, the runners should have this too.)
5) Hit and run tactics which bait the runners into using heavier weapons than are generally permitted - grenades in a C zone, say. When Lone Star shows up, the gang is already fading into their boltholes, and the runners are left holding the bag.

How commonplace are random magical critters? There doesn't seem to be much information about them. There's certainly no information or rules about having pets (nor skills associated with it). I mean, I can throw in a def corp boss with a barghest on a leash, but I am wondering if there are any critters that are commonly used by security forces.

That's entirely up to you, honestly. In SR2, they were REALLY common, and seemed much more prevalent in the streets than in 3rd or 4th edition. The one constant through editions is what corps generally use for paracritter defenses. Generally Hellhounds, Barghests, and Gargoyles are the 3 most common. Most of these are chipped with ASIST & personafix controls, so that they will always obey their handlers, and are incapable of attacking 'valid' personnel.

How do security forces even hope to defend against magical attacks when supposedly only 1% of metahumans are magically active? If only 1 out of 100 security personnel can use magic and I cant throw much more then 10 goons at the players without combat devolving into a dice rolling, slow-paced nightmare, it becomes somewhat difficult to counter a magic heavy group of runners.

This is a really broad question. In a nutshell, there are a small number of things you can do to protect against magic, but luckily they're the kinds of things you should do anyway.
1) Take cover - vision modifiers affect spellcasting, just like shooting.
2) Use smoke - if a mage can't see it, he can't hit it, unless they're hurling blind-fired lightning bolts.
3) Make the security forces' armor have nonconductivity, chemseal, and fire-retardant mods. That'll take care of most elemental spells.
4) Despite the fact that only 1% of metahumans are magically active, a lot of them are employed in the security sector specifically because it's hard to deal with spellcasters without other ones. Don't be afraid to keep spirits & watchers & wards on hand, because that's exactly what the companies employ mages for. And don't be afraid to have them come down with the grunts and chuck a grenade or two, if the occasion calls for it.

P.S.
Any tips on how to sustain a chase, what with all the crash inducing tricks out there such as stop sticks and barrier spells? (shape earth, I'm looking at you...)

Astral things (spirits and mages alike), aerial drones, multiple pursuit cars.

[The Jake]

hi hi

I have something of a dilemma and I was wondering if perhaps I could get some advice. I'm a veteran GM with other systems and I've played Shadowrun enough to know the basics. Recently an important player left a different campaign I was running and people didn't want to continue without him and several of the remaining players requested Shadowrun for the new campaign.

This normally wouldn't be a problem except that some of them have been playing Shadowrun since 2nd edition while I barely caught the tail end of 3rd, and needless to say, when the players have a vastly larger pool of knowledge about a setting then the GM... well, it can pose particular challenges.

That is probably the hardest part to contend with.

Rules can be learned, NPCs created, the fundamentals of a world understood.

But when some player has read nearly two decades worth of material, read almost every novel and can completely derail an entire campaign you've built around an elaborate subplot -- well, even if the character doesn't know, it can reall spoil the fun. Especially for other players.

My best advice here would be to ask the really knowledgable players what are the good or key references to read. Let them guide you and try to read as much as you can.

For instance, does anyone know what a "Fast Response Team" is supposed to be? I've seen lots of references to them and I'm told that Lone Star employs them, but I don't know anything about what their purpose, methods or drawbacks might be. Is it a couple of hard core combat monsters that fly in on jetpacks, or is it a team of 20 commando style grunts that rappel out of a chopper? I'm told they are different then SWAT but I don't even know what SWAT in the future entails.

For starters, the security of a neighborhood affects the response times. At the bottom end, there is no security (Z zone - e.g. Barrens) and cops will not enter. Might makes right in these zones. At the top end (A zone - e.g. Downtown) drones monitor the neighborhood looking for people without a SIN broadcasting wirelessly. Those people are picked up by roaming patrol cars and get to a scene rapidly (2-3min).

I forget the exact details on the size/strength of an FRT sorry. The book Lone Star covered this in depth but there's only a handful of 4th ed stuff printed. Andarael's post is pretty spot on.

What sort of trouble warrants a visit by the "oh buckets, we're up drek creek now" T-Bird response? They have the fastest speed out of pretty much any of the law enforcement vehicles, so there has to be some reason why they're not always right on top of the runners before anyone else (except maybe the beat cop who was just around the corner) Furthermore, how high can the so called "Low Altitude" vehicles really go? Hovercraft, how high can they hover?

I presumed they could go to almost any height throughout a city but not high altitude like a fighter jet. I honestly can't recall.

Do gangs have any other tricks besides overwhelming numbers? I know firearms greatly favor the attacker so its a rather surefire strategy, but it would be nice to not need to rely on it.

Depends on the gang. Some are more magically active than others. Wizkid Gangs are made entirely of magicians of some sort. Some border on para-military skills/tactics and VERY well equipped (e.g. Ancients). Some are little more than a group of thugs pulling together for mutual protection.

How commonplace are random magical critters? There doesn't seem to be much information about them. There's certainly no information or rules about having pets (nor skills associated with it). I mean, I can throw in a def corp boss with a barghest on a leash, but I am wondering if there are any critters that are commonly used by security forces.

How do security forces even hope to defend against magical attacks when supposedly only 1% of metahumans are magically active? If only 1 out of 100 security personnel can use magic and I cant throw much more then 10 goons at the players without combat devolving into a dice rolling, slow-paced nightmare, it becomes somewhat difficult to counter a magic heavy group of runners.

Most security personnel ARE trained on how to spot/recognise magic and from a tactical perspective, know to target the mage first.

Not that different to D&D in that regard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

P.S.
Any tips on how to sustain a chase, what with all the crash inducing tricks out there such as stop sticks and barrier spells? (shape earth, I'm looking at you...)

I made this avatar but didn't realize I couldn't use it, oh well, I'll share anyway.

The lack of personalised avatars is most annoying. I have the ideal one for my profile here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) .

[AngelisStorm]

The Fast Responce Team is the fast version of SWAT. While SWAT is gearing up to go kick some ass, Fast Responce has already shown up and killed whoever it is.

There is a huge rivalry between the two. Basically, FRT's are thugs, plain and simple. Lots of big guns, heavy armor, and armored vehicles. They are the big game hunters of Lone Star. SWAT is for finesse, hostage negotiation, times when the media are watching. If you are trapped inside a bank by the Star, it's SWAT. If a APC shows up and guys start firing, it's FRT. FRT is the reason runners don't start stuff in good security zones; SWAT is why runners don't hole up and wait out the Star.

FTR is probably a "squad," so I would call it 8 guys, give or take. SWAT is going to be multiple teams, because as we all know, when SWAT gets called out, they bring the whole gang. (Since FTR uses such overwhelming firepower, and it's always possible another really bad thing could also crop up, they can't send all of the on duty ones out for every incident nessessarily.) Also future SWAT is going to be just like it is today, except with all the cool SR toys.

Stereotypically, I think FTR are going to be the more cybered of the two. For some strange reason, SR4 seems to think professionals like Swat and FTR don't have alot of cyber (look at the Swat augmentation bundle in Augmentation). I don't follow that terribly closely, because cyber is way cheaper alot of the time to attain the same effect (a year of training, or Muscle Replacement and Reaction Enhancers). I still play them way below the "cyber monster" line though. Swat in my opinion is going to be alot more training, and less cyber, just because of what they do. FTR are gun thugs, so I cyber them out as so. (I use hardly any bio, just cause it is alot more expensive.)

My 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[toturi]

Large explosions, running automatic gunfire, protracted gang fights, breaches in high-security locations like AAA zones Here's the thing about gangs taking on runners: think like a gang member. If they know their target is competent, they're gonna draw the runners into their home turf. Not only would they likely get the mechanical bonus from the "Home Turf" merit, but they'll have defenses in place. For example:
1) Hardened sniper positions made from cut up dumpsters and abandoned buildings;
2) Barricades of trashed cars, scrap metal, etc, that can be used to block entrances and exits...
3) Claymores down the alleys that they can't block - claymores the GANG knows about, but not the runners...
4) AR to show where they are, and where the runners are, who's down, what's going on, etc. (To be fair, the runners should have this too.)
5) Hit and run tactics which bait the runners into using heavier weapons than are generally permitted - grenades in a C zone, say. When Lone Star shows up, the gang is already fading into their boltholes, and the runners are left holding the bag.

Don't forget however that a normal RAW ganger has only Logic and Intuition 2. While they can get mechanical benefits from the "Home Ground" quality, tactics above require at least one of the gangers to be smart enough to think of it and the rest to be marginally smart enough to carry it out and none of them, RAW, has the skill set to carry it out, hence they will be defaulting. One dice to think up a basic tactic (1 Threshold) isn't much, is it?

[kzt]

Wow, that background is going to be hard. If you have a choice I'd set it somewhere that hasn't ever been detailed before SR4. There is lots of Seattle stuff to deal with.

Tbirds, at least in SR3, had a really severe fuel problem. Essentially you are holding a IFV up with a couple of jet engines, so it sucks down the fuel. That's all abstracted in SR4, but it's an excuse.

If you are part of a large organization and you are under attack by magic, you call HQ and one or more mages show up astrally, at warp speed, along with their spirits. There are a LOT of magicians who work for LS or KE in the Seattle area. They can, if need be, each spend a few seconds to summon a force 3 spirit and tell it to find and report to Lt Smith and support him in combat.

Plus spirits on long term bindings can, and will, do things like create wards to defend the area they are protecting and to protect themselves.

I'd make things like FRTs as effective as you need. In my opinion in they should always be a serious threat, no matter what the PCs have, the kind of threat that makes the PCs realize that being there when they show up is likely to have an unfortunate outcome. LS doesn't commit them without a good reason. If LS is committing heavy firepower they are not going to do it half-heartedly. So they get covered by magical guard, concealment on the vehicles and troops to get on site and close without PCs noticing ("make your perception at -8"), Movement power on the vehicles and troops, several spirits to deal with issues, Astral cover, including manaballs dropped from the astral on the PCs if anyone is astrally peeking, etc. Remember only suckers fight fair and they are not suckers. They fight heavily armed sociopaths for a living, have done it for a while and are probably pretty good at it.

[toturi]

I'd make things like FRTs as effective as you need. In my opinion in they should always be a serious threat, no matter what the PCs have, the kind of threat that makes the PCs realize that being there when they show up is likely to have an unfortunate outcome. LS doesn't commit them without a good reason. If LS is committing heavy firepower they are not going to do it half-heartedly. So they get covered by magical guard, concealment on the vehicles and troops to get on site and close without PCs noticing ("make your perception at -8"), Movement power on the vehicles and troops, several spirits to deal with issues, Astral cover, including manaballs dropped from the astral on the PCs if anyone is astrally peeking, etc. Remember only suckers fight fair and they are not suckers. They fight heavily armed sociopaths for a living, have done it for a while and are probably pretty good at it.

If you have Ghost Cartels, I'd say that the FBI ERT unit would be a good example of what the upper limits of a Professional Rating 5 Grunts would be. What I like about this edition is that there isn't a sliding scale of how powerful opposition should be (cough *CR* cough). Instead unless the NPC is a unique individual, generally, the threat posed by the opposition is static. A FRT now is going to look like an FRT 100 karma down the road.

[Larme]

Oh hey, I misread your question about LAVs, but Adarael got it. For hovercraft, they don't hover high at all, they drift along the ground/water on an air cushion, it's almost like sliding around, they don't fly by any stretch of the imagination. Now, it wouldn't be too hard to put booster rockets on them that could let them jump over stuff, or elevate for short periods, but I don't know of any SR hovercraft that have that.

[Dumori]

Some hover craft can go airborne by employing aerodynamics and wings though they are apparently very unstable in prolonged flight. Though could be used to make jumps and glide over obsicals with skill and design perfection though that would likely lead to a low end T-bird.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Thanks so much for all the help, it has really taken the edge off my worries. As Adarael suggested, I do hope that I will be able to surprise them, but the point of all this is that I am also hoping from time to time that I can give them a warm, fuzzy, I dare say nostalgic feeling as well. (while their characters are busy getting pummeled)

I'm willing to take it as far as it needs to go. I'm using a continually escalating "response level," which is basically a combination with their reputation score, the security level of the area and how much mayhem they are causing. The purpose isn't to kill them, but to remind them to put the Shadow back in Shadowrun. If all goes well, I'll never even have to use it because the veterans know the ropes, but then again I have one player who "likes to blow stuff up!" Knowing that FRTs are elite specialists who shoot first ask questions later should help me keep the setting consistent, previously I might have been convinced that they were just the same old goons in a faster ride. I only have the core rulebook and some of the extras lent to me like arsenal and street magic, I might be able to track someone down who has Lone Star though they moved across the country (its the same guy who left my last campaign).

As part of my gradually escalating response level, there should be lighter drones on the scene before the LAV arrives to mete out justice with an iron fist. I found the Kull (p. 120 arsenal) to be particularly fun because of its high speed and its dual airdrop pods are just dying to be modded into airburst grenade dispensers.

As for fuel and operational costs, those are kind of streamlined out of existence in SR4. The 1 slot upgrade "extra fuel tanks" increases a vehicles operation time by a flat 6 hours!

I totally forgot about combat drugs actually, they never really came up in any of the games I played in. I think I'll have to stay away from biker gangs unless I can figure out a way for them to survive being in line of sight of a mage with shape earth and physical barrier. Molotov cocktails are a good idea, or perhaps even molotov cocktails with grenades inside the bottle. I have always found grenades difficult to use because they're too easy to throw back, but if they're on fire that makes it difficult to throw back.

Having never been in a gang myself, most of my exposure has been (sadly) Hollywood. As you may have noticed, gangs in film typically walk right up to together and posture in the other's face before shooting breaks out and they hold their guns sideways for some reason. Although now that I think about it, the ambush scene in Clear and Present Danger might be more in line with what runners should expect from gangs.

I didn't realize vision modifiers worked against spellcasting, chalk that one up to gross oversight on my part I guess. I just hope the players don't complain too much when I inform them they need to be rolling fewer dice.

I've been giving my goon squads elemental support and so far that's effectively kept the players from going into the astral plane at least. However, considering how quickly they dispatched the toxic spirit I sent at them, they might soon realize their fears unfounded and I'll have to step things up a notch.

One thing that has eluded me is how obvious spell casting is. If there's necessarily lots of glowing and moving about, then it should be pretty easy for anyone to notice.

and can completely derail an entire campaign you've built around an elaborate subplot

My campaign has already been derailed once because one person decided randomly that everyone should take a vacation in California Free State rather then completing the mission. (he likes to blow things up!) But I like to think I'm flexible enough to deal with it. Every action has consequences after all.

[kzt]

One thing that has eluded me is how obvious spell casting is. If there's necessarily lots of glowing and moving about, then it should be pretty easy for anyone to notice.

The rules say it's pretty noticeable, if you can see or otherwise perceive the mage, but the fluff tends to ignore that. The rules are on 168 and essentially say that a blind normal will notice a force 6 or larger spell (you need zero success to spot it). If you want it to be noticeable be prepared to ignore various fluff pieces that suggest otherwise.

[toturi]

Having never been in a gang myself, most of my exposure has been (sadly) Hollywood. As you may have noticed, gangs in film typically walk right up to together and posture in the other's face before shooting breaks out and they hold their guns sideways for some reason. Although now that I think about it, the ambush scene in Clear and Present Danger might be more in line with what runners should expect from gangs.

The ambushers in Clear and Present Danger were members of a drug cartel and guess what those fictional cartel members would probably have grown up to be by 2070? If you answered Aztechnology, you'd be correct.

[Adarael]

Don't forget however that a normal RAW ganger has only Logic and Intuition 2. While they can get mechanical benefits from the "Home Ground" quality, tactics above require at least one of the gangers to be smart enough to think of it and the rest to be marginally smart enough to carry it out and none of them, RAW, has the skill set to carry it out, hence they will be defaulting. One dice to think up a basic tactic (1 Threshold) isn't much, is it?

Logic 2 and Intuition 2 is what the standard stock RL ganger has as well, but the gang leader & lieutenants will be the one telling them to do this shit, and they'll be smarter, more cunning, and tougher - which is why they're in leadership positions.

Also, I know you're the canon guy, but come on, Toturi. Not all of us are as hidebound as you, and there are gangers with significantly more heft to them than 2 int, 2 logic, and no skill.

[toturi]

Logic 2 and Intuition 2 is what the standard stock RL ganger has as well, but the gang leader & lieutenants will be the one telling them to do this shit, and they'll be smarter, more cunning, and tougher - which is why they're in leadership positions.

Also, I know you're the canon guy, but come on, Toturi. Not all of us are as hidebound as you, and there are gangers with significantly more heft to them than 2 int, 2 logic, and no skill.

Correct. The leaders and lieutanants are the ones that are telling them to do this and guess what? Roll appropriate knowledge skill to think up the tactics and then roll leadership skill please. And the stock ganger lieutanant has maybe 2 dice to roll for the Knowledge skill check? So 2 dice looking for 1 success (something basic, nothing difficult). Sure, maybe.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I'm sure that gangers can afford to specialize their knowledge skills to fit their home turf, that ought to help them get an edge when they're where they're supposed to be. You could even have a brute squad that specializes in attacking neighboring gangs instead and who probably have a higher mortality rate.

[toturi]

hi hi

I'm sure that gangers can afford to specialize their knowledge skills to fit their home turf, that ought to help them get an edge when they're where they're supposed to be. You could even have a brute squad that specializes in attacking neighboring gangs instead and who probably have a higher mortality rate.

As the GM you can alter the game world to fit your vision of it. I am simply pointing out what is written and what the gangers are capable of if you use them as written.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I catch your meaning, but even as it is written the gangers can use extended tests to think up plans. This is a good example of emergent gameplay mechanics, because it further adds flavor in roleplaying how the gangers react when their well laid plans start to break down.

[Larme]

My instinct would be to say that the gang or other opposition don't have to roll to devise clever security measures. After all, shadowrunners can't come up with a brilliant plan just by rolling a knowledge skill -- the players must come up with a plan, knowledge skills are only going to give hints. If you know about security procedures, you'll know what kind of communications devices the guards use, or what they do when they spot an intruder. But you have to connect the dots yourself and turn that into a workable strategy. There is no consolidated "come up with a plan" skill, so no roll can take care of that without the players doing any actual thinking.

So too, there's no "defend home turf against shadowrunner incursion" skill. A roll of tactical knowskills might improve a gang's security measures, but it's not like they need a roll for the basic stuff. Putting snipers on the roof, setting up booby trapped barrels of gasoline, and sniffing Nitro aren't the results of rolls, they're such obvious things that success is automatic.

I was even gonna say that there should be no rolls. After all, challenging opposition is what makes the game fun, if the enemies don't fight back then it's not really a game, it's group masturbation. But then I got to thinking what would happen if they got a critical glitch. It would be like "so you get to the gang lair, and because they started arguing over what security measures to take, they're in a big brawl with each other, half of them are dead, the rest of them ignore you, you get the macguffin and leave." Though that would remove most of the game, it sure would be funny. A skilled GM would describe the gang's antics, and the whole table would laugh their asses off. Sometimes that's just as good as a challenging combat scenario, and it would definitely be more memorable... People would tell their grandkids about the time their shadowrun team went to retrieve a stolen briefcase, and the gang who stole the briefcase had all killed each other while arguing over where to hide it.

But I say, if you have a plot idea, just go with it. Don't roll the dice to decide whether the story actually happens or whether it fails miserably. The game is not GM vs. players, it doesn't require dice as a neutral arbiter. The GM's job is to create fun, and as long as the players have fun, the GM can roll or not roll as much as he wants. If someone's in a situation where the GM must do everything by the book, it's probably because it's a bad GM or a bad set of players -- when the players only want to "win" shadowrun, and/or when the GM only wants to kill the players arbitrarily, then dice become necessary, because they're the only way to ensure some level of balance between the two adverse parties.

[toturi]

My instinct would be to say that the gang or other opposition don't have to roll to devise clever security measures. After all, shadowrunners can't come up with a brilliant plan just by rolling a knowledge skill -- the players must come up with a plan, knowledge skills are only going to give hints. If you know about security procedures, you'll know what kind of communications devices the guards use, or what they do when they spot an intruder. But you have to connect the dots yourself and turn that into a workable strategy. There is no consolidated "come up with a plan" skill, so no roll can take care of that without the players doing any actual thinking.

So too, there's no "defend home turf against shadowrunner incursion" skill. A roll of tactical knowskills might improve a gang's security measures, but it's not like they need a roll for the basic stuff. Putting snipers on the roof, setting up booby trapped barrels of gasoline, and sniffing Nitro aren't the results of rolls, they're such obvious things that success is automatic.

While by canon/RAW, there is no consolidated "come up with a plan" skill, Knowledge skills are open ended skills, so there may be one. If they come up a plan that has holes in it, I ask for related Knowledge skill rolls. If they are successful, I point out the hole, the PC knows that there is a hole in the plan. If they are really successful, I give them a suggestion on how to plug that hole, the PC is skilled enough to know the solution to that problem. If rolling Knowledge skills provides you with the dots as you say, then rolling really well gives you so many dots they connect themselves. The PCs can come up with a brilliant plan just by rolling a/a few knowledge skill/s.

When I run a game I make sure that no one gets to leverage OOC knowledge/skills into an in-game advantage. Similarly as a GM, I try not to do the same. If my NPCs do not have the right skills, then I don't. If you want to allow a RL tactical genius to play a Logic 1, Intuition 1 idiot savant and you think that is fun and fair, then sure. For me, your PC's stats reflect what you can do. As a player, you can decide on what to do with your limited set of options. You can even come up with brilliant plans with your Logic 1, Intuition 1 PC, just do not ask me why everyone else is getting RP karma when you are not. Or why no one is getting RP karma this session if the group benefitted from your "brilliant" plan. I would rather help the PCs along with Knowledge skill rolls or other skill rolls to plan a successful run, than to allow someone blatantly ignore their character stats. Or do you allow someone playing a Uncouth Cha 1 with no social skills PC "roleplay" successfully persuading the Johnson into giving them a bonus? I'm sure some people find that fun. Not rolling the dice is, to me, just another way of describing railroading.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

What do you do when a player comes up with a horrible plan and rolls really well for it? Does that plan suddenly become a good idea and you have to change the scenario so that it wont get them all horribly maimed? That actually sounds like a fun thought experiment for a GM, but I can also see it going wildly out of control.

[Larme]

While by canon/RAW, there is no consolidated "come up with a plan" skill, Knowledge skills are open ended skills, so there may be one. If they come up a plan that has holes in it, I ask for related Knowledge skill rolls. If they are successful, I point out the hole, the PC knows that there is a hole in the plan. If they are really successful, I give them a suggestion on how to plug that hole, the PC is skilled enough to know the solution to that problem. If rolling Knowledge skills provides you with the dots as you say, then rolling really well gives you so many dots they connect themselves. The PCs can come up with a brilliant plan just by rolling a/a few knowledge skill/s.

I pretty much agree here. Knowskills can give you information, including things like "your character knows that your plan is retarded because you're an idiot IRL." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But they're not going to be able to just roll, and have the GM tell them their plan. That kinda gets rid of the roleplaying aspect of the game.

When I run a game I make sure that no one gets to leverage OOC knowledge/skills into an in-game advantage. Similarly as a GM, I try not to do the same. If my NPCs do not have the right skills, then I don't. If you want to allow a RL tactical genius to play a Logic 1, Intuition 1 idiot savant and you think that is fun and fair, then sure. For me, your PC's stats reflect what you can do. As a player, you can decide on what to do with your limited set of options. You can even come up with brilliant plans with your Logic 1, Intuition 1 PC, just do not ask me why everyone else is getting RP karma when you are not. Or why no one is getting RP karma this session if the group benefitted from your "brilliant" plan. I would rather help the PCs along with Knowledge skill rolls or other skill rolls to plan a successful run, than to allow someone blatantly ignore their character stats. Or do you allow someone playing a Uncouth Cha 1 with no social skills PC "roleplay" successfully persuading the Johnson into giving them a bonus? I'm sure some people find that fun. Not rolling the dice is, to me, just another way of describing railroading.

One man's railroading is another's story which is fun and exciting. IMO, games that proceed only according to the random whims of the dice fail at even the most basic elements of storytelling, they tend not to have beginnings, middles, or ends, they are just like playing an MMO where you grind the mobs for exp and lewtz. Remember that railroads are a form of transportation, they move the game forward. And just because the GM has some predetermined ideas for what will happen, railroads don't have to be single-track, a good GM will allow the players a good deal of control over the plot. Like everything, bad GM = bad game, good GM = good game, regardless of if you want to throw out disparaging terms like "railroad." The problem though is that bad players think that challenges for their characters are GM cheating, because to them the goal is to grind for exp and lewtz and "win" Shadowrun without much risk. If you've got those kind of players, your game is boned anyway, you can railroad or not but you're probably not going to have a good game.

I'm not one of those douchebags who says "roleplay don't rollplay," because that's just code for "I'm a big dumbass who thinks that dice should not be involved in a dice-based system." Dice are necessary, and dice are important. And I agree, you can't roleplay an NPC into doing what you want without rolls, but nor can you say "I roll etiquette on him," you have to come up with some facsimile of what your character says when you make that roll. If your character says "paddy wackle ding-dong!" and rolls etiquette, nothing's going to happen... Both dice and roleplaying are required elements of the game, you can't drop one any more than you can drop the other.

But the GM's place in the system is special. The GM has one job, and it isn't to be a slave to the dice. The GM's job is to create a fun game. If that means the GM has to cheat a couple dice rolls, then great. As long as it's more fun that way. If the game is more fun, your tossing out the word "railroad" is just meaningless. It doesn't matter if the GM rolls or not, it only matters if everyone leaves the game session wanting to come back and do it again. Crappy players might quit the game if the GM doesn't roll everything, based on a misguided idea of the game being a contest between them and the GM. If they want to compete with someone whose only goal is to give them a fun time, and hold that person to set-in-stone rules which can hinder, rather than help everyone's fun, then good riddance to them. Any game of Shadowrun would be better off without such a person.

[kzt]

hi hi

What do you do when a player comes up with a horrible plan and rolls really well for it? Does that plan suddenly become a good idea and you have to change the scenario so that it wont get them all horribly maimed? That actually sounds like a fun thought experiment for a GM, but I can also see it going wildly out of control.

I'd say he realizes that it's going to get them all killed.

[AllTheNothing]

hi hi

I have something of a dilemma and I was wondering if perhaps I could get some advice. I'm a veteran GM with other systems and I've played Shadowrun enough to know the basics. Recently an important player left a different campaign I was running and people didn't want to continue without him and several of the remaining players requested Shadowrun for the new campaign.

This normally wouldn't be a problem except that some of them have been playing Shadowrun since 2nd edition while I barely caught the tail end of 3rd, and needless to say, when the players have a vastly larger pool of knowledge about a setting then the GM... well, it can pose particular challenges.

The campaign has a relatively large scope in the form an ever more challenging series of seemingly unconnected runs set to the backdrop of a new VITAS-3 outbreak that has Seattle quarantined from the rest of the world and brutally escalating geopolitical tensions. However, to pull this off, I need to invent a seriously thorough range NPC actors, from nuyenless street thugs to a defcon 3 UCAS military alert. I'm cruising along with the unorthodox elements ((though I must lament the 4th ed vehicle building/customization rules in spite of vehicle combats new ease of use)) however, there are certain archetypal threats that I know my players will be expecting and I have no idea what they're typically supposed to be. I don't need stats or anything, just some thematic guidance.

I see you like to start with simple things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

For instance, does anyone know what a "Fast Response Team" is supposed to be? I've seen lots of references to them and I'm told that Lone Star employs them, but I don't know anything about what their purpose, methods or drawbacks might be. Is it a couple of hard core combat monsters that fly in on jetpacks, or is it a team of 20 commando style grunts that rappel out of a chopper? I'm told they are different then SWAT but I don't even know what SWAT in the future entails.

Fast Response Teams are SWAT-like security squads that corps deploy in case of emegency, they are equiped with SWAT or milspec armor and have access to almost any type of weapon in order to deal with the intruders, they also have access to almost any vehicle the corp can provide. When in duty they spend their time keeping themselves ready for an incoming emegrency (light physical exercises to keep themselves warm, inspecting gear, etc.); when said emergency arrives it's not them but regular security that deal with it in a first phase, security asses the type of opposition that runners pose and evalutate if they can be dealt with immediatly or if FRTs must be involved (in which case the security will try to pin the runners and to evaquate all the unnecessary personel from the area, to reduce collateral damage), when FRTs are called for the aproximative treath level posed by runners has been already determined, they already have the building plans on their AR overlays, as well the position of the intruders and any relevant information, and expert systems are analizing the the situation to provide the most likely evolution of the events and suggest optimal approches to the fight. When they arrive to the location of the fight they already know all that there is to be known. The team will be divided in two squads, one support squad and a contact squad; the support squad will be composed by hackers, riggers, snipers and possibly mages (basicaly everyone who doesn't need to be there physicaly), the contact squad will be composed of combat specialists (most likely samurais and adepts), one demolition specialist (to defuse bombs) and at least one combat mage. Tactics employed will change depending on the context in which the fight takes place, in general the contact squad will try to force the intruders into zones where they are under line of fire from multiple directions and will try to put out of combat the most treathening opponent as soon as possible; against intruders that use non lethal meaning of combat (Stick&Shock, DMSO/narcoject capsule rounds, etc.) FRTs might use similar approches, such as using full auto granades lounchers loaded with freezfoam splash granades (to reduce property damage). The important thing to remember is that FRTs show up only if the corp has decided that the runners pose a treath high enough to warrant it, and they aren't going to pull any punch, if forced to do it they will put milspech gear to use.

What sort of trouble warrants a visit by the "oh buckets, we're up drek creek now" T-Bird response? They have the fastest speed out of pretty much any of the law enforcement vehicles, so there has to be some reason why they're not always right on top of the runners before anyone else (except maybe the beat cop who was just around the corner) Furthermore, how high can the so called "Low Altitude" vehicles really go? Hovercraft, how high can they hover?

Ok lets begin with wing, wings are made in a way that when they fend the air two things happen: a zone of higher pressure comes to form under the wing and one of lower above it; this pressure differential produces an ascendent force that opposes the weight of the craft. Greater the wing and the speed greater the force, but also greater the friction with the air and greater the spae required for movement. Now the ground effect is basicaly the air below the wing that gets "trapped" betwen the wing and the ground generating a higher than normal pressure, and though a greater ascendent force.
A T-bird is basicaly a supersonic hovertank that uses a combination of vector trusted propulsion and ground effect to keep itself aloft (think a Sea Harrier, just much bulkier and with shorter wings), due to its speed and inerent instability it's dangerous to pilot making it unfitted to be used in urban settings, however it's large huls, the ability of fitting it with armament and armor, the tendence of flying under the radars and it speed makes exceptionaly usefull for smuggling and military applications

Do gangs have any other tricks besides overwhelming numbers? I know firearms greatly favor the attacker so its a rather surefire strategy, but it would be nice to not need to rely on it.

There has been a thread about it that had some realy good stuff in it it was called "Grunt Survival Guide" or something like that, find it and you'll have a gold mine of informations and tips.

How commonplace are random magical critters? There doesn't seem to be much information about them. There's certainly no information or rules about having pets (nor skills associated with it). I mean, I can throw in a def corp boss with a barghest on a leash, but I am wondering if there are any critters that are commonly used by security forces.

Your choise, however there are corps that specialize in breeding them (for example Mitsuhama's subsidiary Parashield) so they should be relatively common in delicate areas.

How do security forces even hope to defend against magical attacks when supposedly only 1% of metahumans are magically active? If only 1 out of 100 security personnel can use magic and I cant throw much more then 10 goons at the players without combat devolving into a dice rolling, slow-paced nightmare, it becomes somewhat difficult to counter a magic heavy group of runners.

Corps go relatively out of their way to aquire magical talent, to the point that an awakened is likely either a wage-mage or a shadow-mage; your players won't have to worry of not finding awakened security as long as they don't run against some nameless microcorp.

P.S.
Any tips on how to sustain a chase, what with all the crash inducing tricks out there such as stop sticks and barrier spells? (shape earth, I'm looking at you...)

Have a wage-mage summon a force 6 air spirit if they get too far.

I made this avatar but didn't realize I couldn't use it, oh well, I'll share anyway.

Nice work.

[AllTheNothing]

hi hi

What do you do when a player comes up with a horrible plan and rolls really well for it? Does that plan suddenly become a good idea and you have to change the scenario so that it wont get them all horribly maimed? That actually sounds like a fun thought experiment for a GM, but I can also see it going wildly out of control.

I'd say he realizes that it's going to get them all killed.

I agreed with KTZ, roll are to determine how well you perform an action not if this action is appropriate, if you go into a corp secret research facility dressed in glowing arange and carrying a stereo that puts out music at 10'000 db you are not going to find a rave party there no matter how well you rolled.