Getting paid for the job, How much are you giving your runners? Options

[InfinityzeN]

First off, I'm going to start this thread by dropping a bomb. My runners as a team pull in $200k to $400k a mission that they take from a Mr. Johnson. Sounds like a hel'la lot doesn't it? After subtracting mission expenses and breaking it down, the players net $30k to $50k each. They run 1 (on the high end) or 2 (on the low end) missions for a Mr J a month. Averages out to about $55k per player per month. Now I know someone is going to say that is crazy talk, but I'll break it all down for you below.

First, the average monthly upkeep for my players is around $30k. That comes out to ~$15k for lifestyle (Home, some safe houses, some 'Lock&Store' places, couple bus station/safety deposit box/PO boxs, and maybe a MILVAN), ~$5k on expendables (Ammo, treating contacts, buying their girl/guy gifts, updating programs, etc etc etc), $5k to the group fund (more on this later), and $5k to retirement (My players actually have retirement planned). Granted, that leaves ~$25k a month, which they use to get new toys, replace fake SIN, cover player driven adventures, etc.

Why do I pay them so much? They are a team of highly skilled freelance covert operatives with a reputation for being completely professional. They have a very select skillset that few can match, are a completely deniable asset, and have no upkeep cost. The last two are big reasons why Corps don't have teams in house. Even now'a'days, if you look at how common contractors are you'll realise that companies would rather go outside to save on the upkeep cost. Plus the runners are actually not that expensive if you consider the value of what they do. The value of what they extract for the Mr J on an extration is often times an order of magnitude or more over the cost of the runners. If your going to net five million on the target, paying $400k to get it isn't a big deal.

On contact runs (this includes things their fixer gets them), my runners don't make nearly as much. Mostly they get gear, favors, and higher contact ratings with only a little cash after expenses. They call these "Maintanance runs". What they get from PC driven runs ranges from negatives to pretty good, but mostly on the low end (in other words, in normally cost them money).

The $30k they are putting to the group fund between them covers their centeral facility (a fully refitted warehouse), their seceretary (yea they actually hired one, she also has quarters at their centeral facility), and the emergency fund, along with a host of other little minor expenses.

My players think any runner out there taking big jobs for a lot less then them is a poser or wanna'be. First mission for a Mr J, when he offered them $50k, the Face laughed and said "Come on guys, lets get out of here. We can make more tonight without getting shot at." and they actually walked out. They did make more money too... stole four nice cars and fenced them one a week. Even with the crappy percentage, they still made double what the Mr J was offering.

So how much do you pay your characters and if it is really low, how do you justify your players actually taking those jobs? Because as skilled as they are, they can just do freelance theft and make good money at far less risk then what seems to be the average pay scale.

[Fuchs]

We don't use detailed money in my campaign, just abstract "wealth". The runners run to keep their lifestyle, and to pay their debts, that's it. New toys and upgrades come after or during runs made for such.

[imperialus]

I'll copy paste an old post of mine that details my thoughts

I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.

If you want an actual number I'd say for a starting team 5-6K per month each. Each time the groups street cred goes up by one double the amount they make.

In planning out a teams advancement here is the formula I would use.

CODE

Street Cred      Pay/month      Karma/Month
                   (x1000)
    0                 5-6            10
    1                10-12           20
    2                20-24           25
    3                40-48           30
    4                80-96           35
    5               160-192          40
    6               320-384          45

How long a team stays at a given street cred "level" is up to you. Street cred of 6 really only belongs to the gods of the shadow scene. These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done. They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors". I can't ever see a campaign of mine reaching that level but it does allow for it.

Most importantly regardless of what "level" you base the campaign at this seems to keep the sams and riggers power level roughly consistent with adepts mages and other karma hogs. If you see one group pulling ahead of the other it is fairly easy to correct it within the framework by offering more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and less Karma or the other way around. It's a guide not hard and fast rules but I've found it useful.

well basically the difference is that street cred is something that I award to players. It works somewhat like edge but refreshes far more rarely. In line with the BBB it consists of their "rep" within the shadow scene and underworld in general. For example someone with a street cred of zero but with a run or two under their belt is still considered a greenhorn by just about everyone. Really only their contacts even know who they are.

Street cred is awarded based on performance, or at least perceived performance by a team. Everyone on the team has the same street cred and it can go up or down (even into negative numbers) based on how their runs go.

the scale basically looks like this

-3 Pariah. You've committed a screw up that is truly aw inspiring. People know you, but they also know that powerful people will pay good cash for your head on a plate. Leaving the country seems like a good idea.
-2 Write-Off. You've screwed up big time. Even your fixer is unlikely to return your calls. People with means to do so want you dead. Chances are skipping town is your best bet
-1 Fuckup. Johnsons are reluctant to work with you, jobs are going to suck and generally be few and far between. Damage control is an order.
0 No rep, You're either a relative unknown just starting out or you've done something to tick some people off. Nothing that can't be fixed but you'd probably want to get on that before things get worse.
1 Streetsmart. Johnson's and fixers are starting to take notice. You've at least proved that you won't completely fuck up jobs.
2 ShadowPunk. It's starting to look like there is something to you. You're a regular team in your fixers stable and he knows you can be trusted to be discreet and efficient. The smaller streetgangs know that it's not worth their time or broken bones to screw with you.
3 ShadowRunner. You're a pro. The jobs come fast and furious and you likely spend most of your time working for favorite Johnson's. You're pretty well known locally and for the most part well liked.
4 Veteran. By now the Johnson's are competing with each other to hire you. You can't exactly write your own paycheque but you're defiantly moving into a sellers market. Everyone but the major crime syndicates knows you're not someone to be trifled with. You probably have dirt on or favors owed from some fairly important figures though not likely anyone with much influence beyond the metroplex area.
5 Prime Runner. You're top of the heap now. Probably one of the best runners in Seattle. Some people are even starting to wonder why you haven't retired. Yakuza Oyuban and Mafia dons (not to mention some important corporate figures) are in your pocket.
6 ShadowGod. Fastjack, Hatchetman, Captain Chaos, You. Pretty much that simple.

Now as for how it works mechanically things are a bit fuzzier. First of all you can at any time add your street cred to provide a bonus to a die roll just like edge. It only applies to social tests with appropriate underworld figures. You can also lower the groups street cred permanently (or at least until you earn it back) to pull in favors with underworld figures and do stuff like get something that is otherwise beyond your reach, make some evidence or witnesses "disappear", ect. What exactly you can get from this depends on your street cred level. With a street cred of two you might be able to get a tricked out van with armour, a turbocharged engine ect. A street cred of five might net you a T-bird. Pulling in these favors lowers your rep though, if it doesn't happen often your cred usually bounces right back, but if you're calling in favors left right and center people start to look at you as a mooch.

It's more art than science but it works for me.

[Ice Hammer]

To me, its just up to the gamemaster's discretion how much they want to pay the runners. I allow for the runners to be able to negotiate for more. And i usually start the runners off as new runners and they have to build up their reputations and their credibility to be able to say to the Johnson that they would be worth more than other runners. But some prefer to start the runners when they are already professionals. Starting as professionals with higher skills and reputation will certainly demand higher pay. But 55k a month, plus a 30k a month lifestyle seems way too high. that's over 600K a year per runner. At some point the Johnsons will balk at paying so much for a run, and will start looking at another runner team that they can pay for less but still get the same professional results.

[InfinityzeN]

And if I was in your game and not getting the money I wanted for jobs, I'd just steal cars or such. Easier, safer, more money. Heh, why run the shadows if it is not worth it?

Seriously, I think people need to look at what actual highly skilled contractors are making today. If they are doing a job that his dangerous (contractors in Iraq for example), their making anywhere from $200k to $400k a year. And most of those guys are nowhere near as limited in choices to hire as proven, highly skilled, professional Shadowrunners. You don't hire top of the line talent for a little whack job. You hire them for the tough stuff or the stuff that has to be done right (because even though it might not be as tough, it is worth a lot of money if done right).

A professional Shadowrunner is not some streetpunk. He (or she) is a highly skilled, dependable, covert asset that will get the demanding jobs done with finesse and as little noise as possible. Unless you want it done loud that is...

[Browncoatone]

Depends on the job of course. Taking on the local mob for a couple of small business owners, maybe they can't pony up the big bucks and you have sort of an A-Team mission. Making a run for a Megacorp or government, well that can add up fast can't it?

I figure that most Shadowrunners (gunbunnies excluded*) are people with in demand skills that could settle into a low (or at least lower) threat position with an organization rather than be freelance but continue to run freelance for the better money and freedom. Think about how rare quality mages or hackers are and how many Organized Crime Syndicates or Megacorporations would love to have them on the payroll.

That in mind, I first assume that the team will generally try one shadowrun per week. I figure about every other run will be a burn, or a failure, pay below average, or one that they should be smart enough to walk away from. Then you got to figure expenses like ammo, bribes, new ids, repairs, safe houses, medical services, etc. So if we figure two good successful runs a month, and that the price of doing business is half of their income, then a run should yield an average of 5K for "middle class" runners, 10K for "high class" runners and 100K+ for your opulent lifestyle runners. If your runner is maintaining a "low class" lifestyle as his primary lifestyle then he's really not a Shadowrunner, he's more like a desperate individual looking for anything he can get to get by.

*One thing you can count on is there will always be new, young, hot females at the club and new, young, thugs with guns to replace the cannon fodder that just bled to death in the street. Skilled labor is harder to come by.

[Ice Hammer]

In my way of thinking, Johnsons, for the most part, are going to look for two things: whether or not a runner team can get the job done that meets their needs and expectations, and two, whether or not it is good for their bottom line. And for me, there are other teams out there that have very similar skill sets to those of the player characters'. And because of this competition, it is plausible that if the characters charge too much, than the Johnsons are free to walk away from the table as well.

[InfinityzeN]

Depends on the job of course. Taking on the local mob for a couple of small business owners, maybe they can't pony up the big bucks and you have sort of an A-Team mission. Making a run for a Megacorp or government, well that can add up fast can't it?

I commented on this in my first post. My guys run jobs that net them little or no money that they get through their fixer and contacts. When I say a run for Mr J, I don't mean just anyone out to hire Shadowrunners. I mean a job from a professional Mr. Johnson who handles contracting assets to take care of special jobs for his Corp/Gov/Special Interest Group/etc.

Most of the stuff that comes through their fixers not related to paying back a favor or getting a piece of tech, is A-Team or Robin Hood style runs. My guys have done lots of Robin Hood runs, since it builds up their rep and makes life easier for them. Of course, there have been a couple of times that they got called rather then the Star getting called because of it, but when they respond to calls like that and take care of the locals around them it leads to a lot of good will and protection. That's actually worth almost as much as money in my eyes.

In my way of thinking, Johnsons, for the most part, are going to look for two things: whether or not a runner team can get the job done that meets their needs and expectations, and two, whether or not it is good for their bottom line. And for me, there are other teams out there that have very similar skill sets to those of the player characters'. And because of this competition, it is plausible that if the characters charge too much, than the Johnsons are free to walk away from the table as well.

Of course. It shouldn't just be runners who walk away from a deal. Sometimes the Johnson just can't pony up enough for what the runners want for the Job.

[InfinityzeN]

One last comment and then I'm calling it a night. Think hard on this now. How did that Sammy/Rigger/Hacker making 10~20k a month before cost of living (which eats at least half of that) earn enough money to get $250k worth of cyber and weapons that he has at the beginning of the game? If he saved every penny not going into his Lifestyle, he would have enough money to get all that in 2 to 4 years (Actually a little more time then that, but I rounded down for ease of posting).

Sure you can say he stole a lot of his gear, but what about the cyber or bio?

I'm going to bed... hope someone comes up with a good generally usable answer to that and can still support their really low monthly pay rate.

[The Jake]

I don't use a real table although to balance nuyen to karma, its probably a good idea.

I don't like using a measure of say, street rep 6 = godlike because at the end of the day there is always someone better (at least there should be) - plus its an arbitrary number.

My PCs atm, while highly skilled, have a low rep and they know they need to prove themselves. So they're at the bottom of the totem pole.

A job that nets them 2k better be a short, low risk, 2 hr job.
Batting average is around 10-15k each (at 6 players on average per session, that's 90k to the group).
10% goes to the party fund.
10% of the magician's salary goes to the initiatory group (one hermetic, one shaman, one mystic adept).

As you can see, that doesn't leave a huge amount.

Even in campaigns where the PCs have been the equivalent of Argent, Fastjack, Michael Sutherland, etc, they going rate was around 50k per player.

If I'm playing, I like to act as a Face, so I will negotiate on a variety of factors - duration of the job, travel required, risk factor, potential reprisals, cost of equipment and materials, etc. Think Ronin when DeNiro drastically drives up the price for the job when Diedre ('Ms. Johnson') refuses to disclose the contents of the case they're stealing.

- J.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I'm starting out at around 60-70k per run with a group of 5 runners. It'll probably increase as time goes on though and they get more fame, but a lot of their wealth is liable to come from secondary acquisitions. Also, if a job comes through a fixer, said fixer gets a cut too.

As for stealing cars and fencing them as a better source of income: this is the territory of gangs and petty thugs. If your runners want to go off and join a gang, they'd probably have pretty good job security too. If they don't, they're liable to be encroaching on someone's turf. After paying protection money, the profits from stealing cars might not be so good anymore.

Starting resources: There's a neigh infinite number of explanations for a character's starting wealth. Perhaps it is the total sum of their life savings prior to their life in the shadows, 18-30 years worth sometimes. It could represent an inheritance from a wealthy relative. Perhaps the character was experimented on by corp doctors who were trying to see how much they could squeeze out of someone's essence. Perhaps the character saved a street doc's life and got horribly maimed in the process.

(Although, I did once GM an unorthadox campaign where the player characters were magicians that specialized in manufacturing orichalcum. It was a light hearted campaign that was designed more as a "what if?" scenario then anything else. They were able to hire some help around the shop and rake in millions every month.)

[The Jake]

I'd love to play a street level campaign with a troll face/gangster (ala Tony Montana) and build up a drug empire...

Sigh. The things we GMs lament never being able to play.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.

[toturi]

In my way of thinking, Johnsons, for the most part, are going to look for two things: whether or not a runner team can get the job done that meets their needs and expectations, and two, whether or not it is good for their bottom line. And for me, there are other teams out there that have very similar skill sets to those of the player characters'. And because of this competition, it is plausible that if the characters charge too much, than the Johnsons are free to walk away from the table as well.

It is a balance between what the Johnson can come up with and what the runners' want and a balance between demand and supply. There is a demand for skilled labor and while there is competition, generally the Johnson does not want to advertise unless he wants the whole sprawl to know he is hiring and this cuts down the number of teams he can afford to interview before there is a leak and the more time he spends looking for a team, there might be less time for the team to get the job done and thus driving up the price. Also the Johnson should know that unless there a lot less jobs than there are runners, those other teams are likely to be on another run as well and are not available.

As for stealing cars and fencing them as a better source of income: this is the territory of gangs and petty thugs. If your runners want to go off and join a gang, they'd probably have pretty good job security too. If they don't, they're liable to be encroaching on someone's turf. After paying protection money, the profits from stealing cars might not be so good anymore.

Given the skill sets of most PC runners, it could be more plausible that the runners become the gang or they are the ones getting the protection money. Between collecting protection and profit from stealing cars, maybe the runners do not need to run any more.

[The Jake]

Unless PCs are stealing Eurocar Westwinds, GMC Banshees or milspec vehicles, I have a hard time believing vehicles will net a cool 5k+ and enable them to coast their way to retirement every time.

- J.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Runners may have the skills to do gang related things, but there are already gangs in existence who are somewhat territorial about other people cutting into their business. Sure, you could probably run a campaign where the players rise to power within a gang or syndicate, but I wouldn't take it for granted. It isn't like you can say "I don't have to run cause stealing cars is easier." if you try to make a living stealing cars, then you have to worry about gang/organized crime intrigues and power plays.

[The Jake]

Street level or not, there is always going to be opposition. If I decide to break into I'm just saying an MCT corporate research facility reknown for using lethal measures, then I have to ask - if I'm being paid 10k why would I risk my hoop when I can make 5k boosting cars for much less risk?

The pay has to be commensurate for the job and the level of risk. I just believe 5k for boosting cars is way too much. 500Y is much more reasonable. Suddenly 10k to break into a research facility sounds awesome.

- J.

[Octopiii]

Unless PCs are stealing Eurocar Westwinds, GMC Banshees or milspec vehicles, I have a hard time believing vehicles will net a cool 5k+ and enable them to coast their way to retirement every time.

- J.

Why shouldn't they steal only valuable vehicles? They've got thousands and thousands of nuyen worth of equipment implanted in them, as well as access to magic and other uncommon skills. They could steal a GMC Bulldog and still make almost 2k if we assume a 5% rate of recompense, and I would imagine that it would be about as drama free as can be. Hell, if they want to get just a little more daring, for the effort it takes for a "bust into Corp A, steal files/extract employee/sabotage production" run, they could steal just one GMC Banshee which would net them 117500 nuyen.

Considering the skills and equipment PCs have, it's ludicrous to suggest that they should be 'happy' getting paid a pittance when they could use those same skills to freelance their way into real payment.

[Muspellsheimr]

Jake, you are in the mindset of the Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned; there is absolutely not always someone better. While I agree that, generally speaking, there is always someone more powerful (AAA Corporations, for example), it is entirely possible for the players to literally be the best in the world at what they do - I have personally played such characters.

Katze, a team of runners is likely capable of annihilating nearly any gang, & posing a threat to many syndicates. It is not difficult to steal a pair of Eurocar's a month; if the pay from runs cannot compete, something is wrong.


On the subject of the original post, ~2,500 Nuyen, after expenses, per point of Karma earned. Higher level games should earn both more Nuyen & Karma, lower powered games less, but to keep Awakened & Mundane balanced, this is the guideline to be used. Please note, this does not all have to be in the form of payment for the runs. Generally, it is unprofessional & often stupid to loot everything during a run, there are some times doing so is quite viable.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

We're rapidly entering the realm of opinion at this point. It is my opinion that stories about invincible warrior heroes are better left to Exalted or Scion: God. What has typically drawn me to the Shadowrun setting has been its gritty, on the edge nature, such that it doesn't matter who you are, you're always one mistake away from the grave.

That being said, the way the rules are set up makes stealing cars for a living not such a good idea. Lets look at the street costs table:

• Item stolen -20% (yes, it is stolen)
• Item used - 20% (unless you're stealing off the lot)
• Market flooded - 10% (there's only so many buyers to go around, and you're not the only one stealing cars)
• Price war between rival dealers -10% (eventually the flooded markets will cause a price war, if not gang war)

After a little while, it might not be as profitable anymore to steal cars, but given the ¥5000 a month pay for full time employment it still looks good. Still, lets look at another aspect of getting into the territory of organized crime, the reprisal.

In all our play-testing in Shadowrun 4th edition, I have never seen a character that has been able to survive around Reaction + Edge goons with automatic weapons. Say the mob catches word of this newcomer on the street who's been flooding the market and lowering their profit margins. They tell their thugs to keep an eye out and they ask the cop down at the DMV whom they've payed off to help them out. Once they've identified the runners MO, they set him up with a bait car and blast him away with multiple focus full auto bursts. Or perhaps they've rigged the bait car with explosives too.

Even if the character survives the encounter, they're going to have to watch their back real carefully. Perhaps they'll find out who the gang boss is and go take him out, but if ending organized crime was that easy, Lone Star would have done that years ago.

Still, bigger jobs require bigger payouts, but if a runner ever makes close to 1 million ¥, its very hard to justify not retiring.

[Muspellsheimr]

One of my characters, at 400 BP, can easily survive 6 Suppressive Fire goons, in everyday gear, probably without even being hit.

That same character is easily capable of wiping out half the mob single-handedly over the course of a few weeks; assuming she can locate them (which she very easily has the connections for).

A team of competent runners is a threat a gang would be incredibly foolish to fuck around with. Gang wars & territory conflicts are not an issue.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

6 chaps with suppressive fire is cake, try 20 fellows with focus fire.

[Muspellsheimr]

20 won't even get within range. Even an idiot would notice them coming, & when you roll 12+ dice for Perception...

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Shadowrunner walked up to them when he tried to steal the car, they were hiding on the rooftops up to 50 yards away.

[Ryu]

Old Thread

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Ack, I've been hit! Such is the life of the easy target. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)