Houserules- Better balance of magic. Banning Overcasting and being generous with dice. Options

[Aiolos Turin]

This allows powerful magician characters to still nuke someone in one hit (6 spellcasting + 6 magic + 6 foci = 18 dice, 6 hits average, 5 net hits average) doing Force 6 manabolt, 11P damage (unresisted) which will kill anything short of a dragon in one hit.

This also gets rid of ridiculous overpowered Overcasting. The fact that all it does is turn the damage from Stun to Physical is ludicrous. That is NOT a threat or reason to not overcast. This prevents free insta-kills via Force 12 manabolts. this allows for over-the-top Magicians to still insta-kill via Force 6 manabolts and their usual bajillion damage, resulting in 11P.

This balances the game. Take out overcasting, and be generous with allowing players to buy Spellcasting Foci. This means a Magic 4 mage (slightly above average) with Spellcasting 4 with a Foci of 4 would be able to cast Force 4 manabolts with an average of 3 net hits, thus doing 7P damage.

This is the exact same damage as Overcasting a Magic 4 spell. Force 8 = 8P - 3 resist dice (1 hit) = 7P, but without the extra net hits. This stops people from overcasting 8P + 3 nethits, 11P, suffering only 4DV that is usually heavily (or entirely) resisted.

1) It doesn't change the drain values. In fact, it keeps them lower as no overcasting means no double DV.
2) It bans Overcasting, which is overpowered for such a non-significant negative modifier of changing S damage to P.
3) It keeps all Drain in S form.
4) Allows overpowered mages to still remain overpowered.
5) Allows others more defense against being obliterated in one, unescapable spell.
6) Foci is more important, more emphasized, and this adds to the roleplaying, tactics, and balance of both sides. Also allows the mundane to "knock the staff out of the mage's hand" which lowers their power significantly, adding a heavy emphasis and Lore to the power of Magic and Wizards (the staff helps his power so much!) This allows for those amazing Telekenesis moves on the part of the mage to get his staff back, turn to the Street Samurai jumping at him with a Katana, and obliterate him with a powerful fireball. Epic Story win! Fun for EVERYONE, not just the overpowered mage.

I for one love magic that has a heavy emphasis on magical items. Protective necklaces and foci for mundane to wear as defense. Magical swords for anyone, not just adepts. Magical staffs to channel mage's power significantly. It is more FANTASY!
Overall, I really like this system. It also gives a heavy influence for there to be more mages who rely on cyberware than otherwise. (This is Shadowrun. Half the professional mages should have wired reflexes.) So it not only adds to the Magical High Fantasy aspect of Shadowrun (emphasis on powerful, less rare Foci) but also on the Gritty, Man meets Magic and Machine, type of world (Mages are more likely to have cyberware)

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

This allows powerful magician characters to still nuke someone in one hit (6 spellcasting + 6 magic + 6 foci = 18 dice, 6 hits average, 5 net hits average) doing Force 6 manabolt, 11P damage (unresisted) which will kill anything short of a dragon in one hit.

This also gets rid of ridiculous overpowered Overcasting. The fact that all it does is turn the damage from Stun to Physical is ludicrous. That is NOT a threat or reason to not overcast. This prevents free insta-kills via Force 12 manabolts. this allows for over-the-top Magicians to still insta-kill via Force 6 manabolts and their usual bajillion damage, resulting in 11P.

This balances the game. Take out overcasting, and be generous with allowing players to buy Spellcasting Foci. This means a Magic 4 mage (slightly above average) with Spellcasting 4 with a Foci of 4 would be able to cast Force 4 manabolts with an average of 3 net hits, thus doing 7P damage.

This is the exact same damage as Overcasting a Magic 4 spell. Force 8 = 8P - 3 resist dice (1 hit) = 7P, but without the extra net hits. This stops people from overcasting 8P + 3 nethits, 11P, suffering only 4DV that is usually heavily (or entirely) resisted.

1) It doesn't change the drain values. In fact, it keeps them lower as no overcasting means no double DV.
2) It bans Overcasting, which is overpowered for such a non-significant negative modifier of changing P damage to S.
3) It keeps all Drain in S form.
4) Allows overpowered mages to still remain overpowered.
5) Allows others more defense against being obliterated in one, unescapable spell.
6) Foci is more important, more emphasized, and this adds to the roleplaying, tactics, and balance of both sides. Also allows the mundane to "knock the staff out of the mage's hand" which lowers their power significantly, adding a heavy emphasis and Lore to the power of Magic and Wizards (the staff helps his power so much!) This allows for those amazing Telekenesis moves on the part of the mage to get his staff back, turn to the Street Samurai jumping at him with a Katana, and obliterate him with a powerful fireball. Epic Story win! Fun for EVERYONE, not just the overpowered mage.



Overall, I really like this system. It also gives a heavy influence for there to be more mages who rely on cyberware than otherwise. (This is Shadowrun. Half the professional mages should have wired reflexes.)

I've not seen magic been overpowered at all, the worst thing from magicians I've seen is really spirits. Overcasting, I've had players survive force 12 manaballs and similar high damage spells. Generally the players that produce the most consistent high damage were my Cyberedup troll with vibro swords. My sniper with a super rifle and APDS rounds also consistently did a shitload of damage, generally overcasting (unless optimized for) only succeeded in wiping the mage in question, our caster burned the most edge and died the most often from any other characters.

[masterofm]

It is mainly the spirits that are broken sauce. Especially on a mage built for overcasting and possession.

[BlueMax]

It is mainly the spirits that are broken sauce. Especially on a mage built for overcasting and possession.

Even without possession, spirits are the game breakers.

Fear == win
Concealment == awesome.

When my mages summon rating 9 carefree, it makes the mundanes rather angry.

[masterofm]

Yes, but especially is a very powerful thing.

"You see a mundane troll guard who is walking his root what do you do?"

"I have my force nine guardian spirit possess him!"

"Sigh... ok the guard is now a super troll with super amazing stats what do you do?"

"I have it rock the crap out of everyone else in the facility!"

"Ok.... you win the entire facility what next?"

"Well now I take my troll pet for a stroll. I think I'll keep him. Next time he gets to wield a heavy weapon of my choosing. His new name is now broken o' with 18 hardened armor. Bua ha ha ha... I'm evil... ha ha ha!!!1!11!!one!"

[Dragnar]

I agree with the other posters. Mages have some absurdly powerful tricks up their sleeve, but overcasting direct damage spells istn't really one of them.
Firstly 11P isn't "killing everything short of a dragon in one hit". In fact, it doesn't even kill joe average in one hit; it'll incapacitate him, though. Most trolls wouldn't even go down at all.
Secondly, most heavy weapons can do that kind of damage even with the target getting to resist, some of them even for as much as a simple action instead of the complex one spellcasting takes. None of them damage the user at all, as well.

[Crusher Bob]

Add to the fact that a force 6 spellcasting focus comes in at 90,000 Y compared to an MGL-12 at 2,000 and an assault cannon at 5,500 Y. For the price of the focus alone I could put a bunch of competent guys with MGL-12s on retainer to follow me around and murderize anyone I pointed at. If I pay four guys will MGL-12s to follow me around, and point at the poor troll, he gets to resist 12P(f) eight times. And I don't have to have master level skillz, and don't have to risk hurting myself, and don't leave a huge honking astral signature that can be used to track me, personally, down later.

[The Jake]

Add to the fact that a force 6 spellcasting focus comes in at 90,000 Y compared to an MGL-12 at 2,000 and an assault cannon at 5,500 Y. For the price of the focus alone I could put a bunch of competent guys with MGL-12s on retainer to follow me around and murderize anyone I pointed at. If I pay four guys will MGL-12s to follow me around, and point at the poor troll, he gets to resist 12P(f) eight times. And I don't have to have master level skillz, and don't have to risk hurting myself, and don't leave a huge honking astral signature that can be used to track me, personally, down later.

Yeah but a force 9 posessing spirit with Regeneration and Immunity to Normal Weapons will rip through that same squad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

[Aiolos Turin]

Add to the fact that a force 6 spellcasting focus comes in at 90,000 Y compared to an MGL-12 at 2,000 and an assault cannon at 5,500 Y. For the price of the focus alone I could put a bunch of competent guys with MGL-12s on retainer to follow me around and murderize anyone I pointed at. If I pay four guys will MGL-12s to follow me around, and point at the poor troll, he gets to resist 12P(f) eight times. And I don't have to have master level skillz, and don't have to risk hurting myself, and don't leave a huge honking astral signature that can be used to track me, personally, down later.

Well the point would be to make spell foci easier to obtain and more generous.

If people dont think DC spells are OP though, then theres no need for this rule.

Id really like someone to show me or direct me to one of their shadowruns (preferably with dice rolls)

My street level campaign has the most power with guns, which are usually and sometimes entirely resisted by armor. 4P + 1 net hit against 7-9+ DR can mean barely any damage sometimes. A character with Magic of even 3 throwing overcast everywhere constantly does atleast 5P, which is more than anything else we have, save shock gloves.

Magic is overpowered in a smaller campaign where the characters are 200-300 BP. Even in a weak character, if he specializes in magic (Magic 3, Spellcasting 3) which he WILL, when you can overcast without any real penalty for overcasting, it means you get to free-hit everyone with 5-6P every time, while everyone else is doing at max 6P, at average 3P, and sometimes only 1S or absorb entirely. If it's a troll or ork, it's almost always 0-2P. Magic bypasses Orks and Trolls and does full damage, making it just a little too powerful, especially when your average against a troll is 7P, which incapcitates him entirely unless he's a boss.

[Aiolos Turin]

It is mainly the spirits that are broken sauce. Especially on a mage built for overcasting and possession.

I wouldnt even allow Spirits to possess anyone unless they specifically had a unique spiritual/magical opening to spirits.

I find it very ironic and odd that a team of game developers who have such massive Lore, Knowledge, and "realistic twist" to everything fail to implement the fact that it is never easy for a spirit to possess anyone, especially to the point of Horror movies like The Exorcist.

I believe that every Shadowrunner should watch a few episodes of the X-Files. This is A LOT like the Lore and World of shadowrun. It implements everything from Monsters, to Magic, to Spirits and Spirituality- all in a modern twist.

Afterall, thats a lot of what Shadowrun is. Urban Legends, Myths, and Spiritual beliefs all come alive through Magic.

I believe a good GM knows when to limit severely some spells, and require an epic reason for having such spell because of its rarity. If every Mage walks around with Mind Control, then magic quickly becomes overpowered. Your game might not have Mind Control overpowered, but if anyone were to have Mind Control in real life, like one episode of the X-Files, they'd be extremely powerful. Also, a good GM knows when to add physical, spiritual, or just abnormal blocks to magic. "For some reason, your mind control has no effect on this incredibly faithless man." or "As you try to control the mind of the Schizophrenic man, a massive flash of magic blasts your mind, filling your head with confusion, thousands of voices, disorentating and knocking you back."
So unless you want every mage to be as powerful as a Jedi, then being restrictive with specific spells and requiring a lot of background roleplaying info is crucial. Afterall, only Jedi's can do the Jedi mind control spell, and there's....how many of those in the universe?

Perhaps this is a better use of Houserules. The absolute unstable use of Magic in a world where crazy things happen, unexplainable phemonena utter confused even the most powerful of mages, and there are just some things you just simlply cant do. Perhaps Magic is an Entity in itself that refuses to allow a single entity or group to control it so much that it knocks off the Karmatic Balance of the Universe.

Often there are massive backlashes to incredibly powerful characters (as a form of balance, character development, and a general sense of "Dont push your luck... Just because you're powerful doesnt mean...")
Like Rogue from the X-Men. She can steal anyone's powers. Incredibly powerful. The backlash is a psychological thing though- she takes their memories and personalities too.


I'd also have a rarity table. Very high-profile, powerful, high-force spirits are rare...and take more than just a successful "bind" to command. There should be forces in the world that are far beyond that of a very powerful 6 Magic Player or a Force 10 spirit. Spirits suppose to have personality, names, desires, and the high force ones would be incredibly resistant to helping someone, being so powerful. There should be entire adventures to bind one. Duties you must preform just to get one task, and a very high rarity to even find one that powerful, etc. The forces far beyond the power of a player or spirit should be a very creative, and limiting, GM. (Limitting in making it hard, but not impossible, to have overpowered spirits, possession, etc.)

[The Jake]

I wouldnt even allow Spirits to possess anyone unless they specifically had a unique spiritual/magical opening to spirits.

I find it very ironic and odd that a team of game developers who have such massive Lore, Knowledge, and "realistic twist" to everything fail to implement the fact that it is never easy for a spirit to possess anyone, especially to the point of Horror movies like The Exorcist.

I believe that every Shadowrunner should watch a few episodes of the X-Files. This is A LOT like the Lore and World of shadowrun. It implements everything from Monsters, to Magic, to Spirits and Spirituality- all in a modern twist.

Afterall, thats a lot of what Shadowrun is. Urban Legends, Myths, and Spiritual beliefs all come alive through Magic.

One's interpretation of the world does not conform in any way to the rules.

- J.

[masterofm]

No offense to you Aiolos, but your post actually made me bust out laughing.

I actually totally agree with you, but it's not how SR possession works. In fact it is pretty much super easy. Either the spirit goes up against the OR, or it goes up against I believe the characters willpower. Generally it means the character unless they have a maxed out willpower and are Mr. lucky they will probably be punked in 1-2 IPs.

The harder you look at the rule books the holier it will get. Cross reference certain books with others and you can pull out some pretty crack baloney. It has gotten to the point where our group has basically thrown out unwired and RC at our table to prevent further abuse.

Streetmagic introduced voodoo and some of the spirits are just filled with awesome. Guidance spirits can use divination which for most games is a GMs worst nightmare.

[Muspellsheimr]

You fail entirely to see what the problem is, & thus are incapable of solving it. Your current "solution" does nothing to address the problem, & unnecessarily hurts Awakened characters.

Direct Combat spells, while powerful, are not necessarily more so than mundane alternatives (although I do agree that they could go for a small reduction). The issue is that they are, in the vast majority of situations, far more powerful than Indirect Combat spells. Given that they also have significantly less Drain...


Overcasting is not an issue. Magic vs. Mundane is not an issue. Magic vs. Magic is the issue, & by changing Direct spells to follow the pattern of every other attack in the game (attack : "dodge" : resist), they are balanced against Indirect spells, without entirely removing their usefulness.


Spirits are a separate issue that I have a separate solution for, that I intend to be using in my upcoming game. Spirit's Skills & Attributes are one-half Force (round up), instead of RAW Force.

[Aiolos Turin]

One's interpretation of the world does not conform in any way to the rules.

- J.

Yes it does. Following the Lore and World of Shadowrun, multiple beliefs on how possession DOES conform to the rules.

This IS a roleplaying game, afterall, and if you are going to make any houserules, it should be to follow the true heart and lore of shadowrun. (Which is every belief imaginable, come to life. If you dont believe me, look at every paracritter, religion, and the beliefs of Magic.)

Magic didnt just suddenly happen without any reason. The entire new age of Magic, Machine, and Goblinization and all its lore was entirely founded based on real life beliefs, religions, groups, etc. Native American religion is amongst one of the heaviest in the Lore.

Possession in the Shadowrun universe to happen easily by any mage who wants to learn to control spirits is NOT the Shadowrun universe. If you possess everyone you come across just like that, your world is one that has strayed from the true vision of Shadowrun Lore. Thats fine for you, but not to those who love Shadowrun because it's Shadowrun.

[BlueMax]

Streetmagic introduced voodoo and some of the spirits are just filled with awesome. Guidance spirits can use divination which for most games is a GMs worst nightmare.

I have seen task spirits abused in the worst possible ways too.

[Dragnar]

Wait, what?
Following the Shadowrun rules (which say possession is easy and possession traditions do so all the time) is straying from the "true vision" of shadowrun lore?
I'm sorry, but that assessment doesn't make much sense.
Saying you don't like easy possession is one thing and you're free to do so, but claiming SR itself somehow doesn't follow it's own lore, is kinda absurd, as whatever is written in the books is by definition the "real" SR-lore.

[Aiolos Turin]

You fail entirely to see what the problem is, & thus are incapable of solving it. Your current "solution" does nothing to address the problem, & unnecessarily hurts Awakened characters.

Direct Combat spells, while powerful, are not necessarily more so than mundane alternatives (although I do agree that they could go for a small reduction). The issue is that they are, in the vast majority of situations, far more powerful than Indirect Combat spells. Given that they also have significantly less Drain...

I didnt fail to see this problem. In fact, I talked about this very thing in this (or another) recent post TODAY.

This doesnt hurt the Awakened character at all, as this still allows them the full force of being able to incapacitate people in one hit, and doesn't change drain at all.

What this DOES do is increase importance and availability of FOCI and help the mundane when taking magic damage. It is an incredibly small change to ban overcasting and be generous with dice. Increasing the chance to hit with the spell, decreasing drain, while mainting the same minimum damage doesn't drastically change Awakened characters. All it does is put a cap on their max damage. A powerful spellcaster can still do 12P, which DOES kill anything short of a dragon. A troll would have to have a body of 9+ to not immeditely be taken out by such a blast. Any GM who has grunts still alive after 12P and -4 dice is too much of a powergamer with his grunts going by the rules instead of reality. 7P is considered a lethal strike. 12P is incapcitating, deadly, and even if you happen to have "one more box before going unconscious" and somehow have enough dice left to do something- the GM should be skeptical about allowing his grunts, or even players, to do something heavy. Only those trolls or orks so numb with drugs they cant feel pain would ever be able to even act after a 12P hit. The character or grunt has to be writhing in so much unspeakable pain with such a deep wound that all he can do for the next few rounds is yell and choke.

Also, no one will ever convince me Magic isn't more powerful than everything else, when the tests dont have a DR test, while EVERYTHING ELSE DOES. That sole fact means Magic can be more powerful than a tank, solely based on armor.

The Panther XXL does 10P -5AP.
Against a heavily armored military soldier, thats 13 armor (18-5)+ 6 body = 19 dice, 6 hits.
The Panther XXL does, on average, 4P + net hits.
An overcasting mage can do 4P + net hits using a Force 6 spell, suffering NO drain, as 3 DV is easily countered. PLUS the ability to have an innumerable amount of other spells like Social, Stealth, Travel, and Buff spells.

Im rather going to ban overcasting, or ban direct combat spells and make all magic combat indirect. This brings it to balance with everything else.
In a world where magic is RARE, there cannot be a mage to counterspell a player-mage every single moment. To make the mage a easy target for EVERYONE because he leaves astral signatures when casting, is just making a player miserable.

When you have half your players whining that their Panther XXL does only 4P while the Mage drops targets left and right in one hit without suffering much drain, you have to provide balance.
When your mage player is whining that he cant do anything because he's Public Enemy #1 just for being a Mage, all you can do is agree it's stupid, and something needs to change.

Of course, I doubt most people here dont have GM's who send in military teams on important objectives, because if they did, they'd roll their eyes that the mage just dropped the entire military squad and afterwards just patched himself up with First Aid and Stim patched his way to safety, while the heavy badass troll with a Panther XXL could barely scratch them.

[Muspellsheimr]

Direct spells are better than firearms for damage. They also take a Complex Action, a significant investment to use, & damage the user. Without your proposed change, mundanes can keep pace with mages fairly easily. With your change, mundanes become notably more powerful than the casters, and it still does not address the problem.

Oh, and removing overcasting is a huge change.


From what I have seen of your posts today, you are even worse than Cain, & will now be ignored.

[pbangarth]

As long as characters can treat spirits as completely obedient automata, no matter what their Force, then both materialization and possession spirits are indeed extremely powerful, maybe even overly so. However, I have never been able to understand why people think that a magician with LOG 3, WIL 5, CHA 5 can out-think, dominate and schmooze a spirit with stats at 6, 7 or 8. SR4, SM and DG all give helpful guidelines for GMs to play spirits as independent entities.

Could you be controlled by something dumber and weaker-willed than you?

[Aiolos Turin]

Wait, what?
Following the Shadowrun rules (which say possession is easy and possession traditions do so all the time) is straying from the "true vision" of shadowrun lore?
I'm sorry, but that assessment doesn't make much sense.
Saying you don't like easy possession is one thing and you're free to do so, but claiming SR itself somehow doesn't follow it's own lore, is kinda absurd, as whatever is written in the books is by definition the "real" SR-lore.

You need to reread the intro to the Core Rulebook about the magic sections, and have some discussions with some writers, both Shadowrun writers and any writer worth his salt.

They didnt just make up Shadowrun Lore from scratch. They have sources that they twist and use to make a more realistic world.

If the rules say possession is easy and you're free to do so all the time, someone goofed. Most likely the person who wrote the rules doesnt care as much about the Lore as the other writers.

And if your GM allows possession easily and anytime you want in, he is not only a horrible writer and storyteller, but has absolutely no idea the concept and general idea of Shadowrun Lore. It is based off of real life beliefs, exagerated Myths, etc.

Not only this, but Shadowrun is exactly the future of Earthdawn, which I know the Lore to that as well. Earthdawn was the first era, followed by the era we live in now, with Shadowrun being the era after that. I've read many of the Shadowrun books, focusing on the link between reality's beliefs and their personal twist on things. I love how they brought alive many creatures Greek mythology as metavarients. Anyways, I think I know what I'm talking about.

But of course, it's personally fine if you want your story to be like The Exorcist every shadowrun, have magic more common than BTL's, never have any military or paramilitary presence, or label all your characters Vegeta as a Mystic Adept with the spell Powerbolt and the rest dumped into Adept skills. It's not like anything SUPPOSE to be rare, mystical, or realistic.

[Aiolos Turin]

Oh, and removing overcasting is a huge change.


From what I have seen of your posts today, you are even worse than Cain, & will now be ignored.

It's obviously not a huge change since there are other small changes that balance casting to become as powerful as overcasting, but without the overcasting.
It's not more a change than adding a small 3-6 dice DR to magic tests or increasing DV on all spells +1.

Please do ignore me. Dont forget to lower your nose on your way out so you can see the Exit sign.

[Crusher Bob]

An overcasting mage can do 4P + net hits using a Force 6 spell, suffering NO drain, as 3 DV is easily countered.

Assuming you have 10 dice to resist drain, your chances to taking drain look like:
Take none ~70%
Take 1 ~19.6%
Take 2 ~8.7%
Take 3 ~1.7%

A ~30% chance of taking some drain is hardly 'easily countered'.

[BlueMax]

As long as characters can treat spirits as completely obedient automata, no matter what their Force, then both materialization and possession spirits are indeed extremely powerful, maybe even overly so. However, I have never been able to understand why people think that a magician with LOG 3, WIL 5, CHA 5 can out-think, dominate and schmooze a spirit with stats at 6, 7 or 8. SR4, SM and DG all give helpful guidelines for GMs to play spirits as independent entities.

Could you be controlled by something dumber and weaker-willed than you?

I could if he had something over me. Shadowrun doesn't force the fluff on you but some traditions have leverage like "true names" circles and whatnot. Its not that the spirit ever really wants to do these things but that the rules of magic force them too.

The above section does not in any way excuse how powerful spirits are and is intended only to respond to what I find to be quick fixes for a problem.

[BlueMax]

Assuming you have 10 dice to resist drain, your chances to taking drain look like:
Take none ~70%
Take 1 ~19.6%
Take 2 ~8.7%
Take 3 ~1.7%

A ~30% chance of taking some drain is hardly 'easily countered'.

The best thing is that its physical damage. One good Field Medic, First Aid 4 + Logic 4 + medkit 6 (minus say 5 for conditions ) mage, and you have 3 dice of healing if the spell ends the fight.

[Dragnar]

As long as characters can treat spirits as completely obedient automata, no matter what their Force, then both materialization and possession spirits are indeed extremely powerful, maybe even overly so. However, I have never been able to understand why people think that a magician with LOG 3, WIL 5, CHA 5 can out-think, dominate and schmooze a spirit with stats at 6, 7 or 8. SR4, SM and DG all give helpful guidelines for GMs to play spirits as independent entities.

Could you be controlled by something dumber and weaker-willed than you?

If the rules say so, then yes. a mage with LOG 3 may cast control thoughts on a character with LOG 4 no problem.
And the rules tell you, that the spirit will do the X tasks you ask of him. If the does so, because you woo him, threaten him, are more powerfull than him or because spirits are dumb automatons is fluff, basically. You don't have to out-think it to order it around.

That may not be the best solution, as allowing mages so summon beings vastly more powerful than themselves opens up some quite easily abusable tricks, but it's the RAW.
Lucky enough, all the people I game with think of that possibility as wierd and have never done it, nor intend to, but the possibility is explicitly there.