Hacker vs Technomancer, A question about character differences Options

[Tiger Eyes]

Echoes - even more so than mages metamagics these really define the role a TM plans to fufill
Untracable assassin - take Resonance trodes and black hammer people with a touch of your hand or better yet reprogram them with Psychotropics.

This is something, strangely enough, that has come up in our game 3 times already. Heck, just the last game, we assassinated someone in a room full of 18 other people, and they assumed it was a drug overdose. My poor little TM has become an assassin... It has less-lethal applications as well, like a great way to get someone to sleep when you don't want to risk any overflow damage (like a powerful stunball or stim patches can do), and a wonderful way to interogate someone - zap 'em into a really, really scary VR environment, and they can't escape. Heck, just pulling someone into VR and then letting them go gives them dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also it's a non-noticible way to communicate completely privately with team members - a quick touch of the hand, or an under-the-table bit of footsie, and you can communicate without your Mr. Johnson (or anyone else) noticing or overhearing. It also works great when a bad guy tries to grab you for a fate worse than death (or really, in melee combat - Touch Only attacks get a +2, y'know).

(can you tell we use Resonance Trodes in our game a lot?)

[Ryu]

Rules question: You draw them into the VR, so they would end up in your living node, yes? What if they have a DNI connection to an (internal) commlink? Can they use their programs on your living persona (for what little worth that might have)?

[Draco18s]

I would put much of your POV down to the consequences of that experience. A character that does nothing but matrix things, while none of the involved parties knows the matrix rules... let´s say that honourable mention for trying is the best result you could hope to achieve. (And I have rejected such concepts in the past, more power to you.)

I will admit that my experiences flavor my point of view.

But don't yours?

I would like to ask why you think that TMs can´t work that way.

What? I never said "can't work" anywhere in that paragraph.

Then tell me what you think of threading the Shield CF and an offensive CF of your choice up to 9. Since you were arguing softmaxed attributes, a defense pool of Intuition+Willpower+9 is rather satisfactory, wouldn´t you say? No extra action involved in that, just threading a bit.
Apart from the fact that TMs are pretty unlikely to end up in matrix combat.

So the TM pays (5 * 10 * 3 = 150) 150 BP to have the maximum dice to the defense roll while a hacker pays, what (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 15,000? Which equates to 3 BP. Even if we assume that rating 5 system/firewall/responce is 10 times as expensive, that's still 30 BP to 150.

Also, I asked what a hacker does. What does a hack do if he doesn't have a program. Technomancers can fake it, yes, but there is still a roll you can roll (or a rule that says there's no roll).

Idea: As long as you don´t have that figured out, stop saying that TMs are underpowered. For example, compiling a sprite happens (usually) before you need it, because you know beforehand. If you know hacking. Your point is much like "mages suck because spirits are powerful". You only NEED sprites to compete with the upper crust of munched hackers. Usual dicepools of 10-16 can be given competition without.

That's like saying that mages NEED spirits in order to compete with a gunfighter. No they don't. I've seen plenty of mage builds that are extrememly effective without having any bound (or loose) spirits.

All you're arguing is "there is one exact perfect optimal TM build that everyone builds and any deviations are loss in power." Which is completely counter productive to having choices about character creation. If I decide to build a TM that doesn't bother with spites I've gimped myself so hard the character is infertile.

Or if I decide not to get my Stealth CF up to max rating.

Or...

Since you will be perfect at every activity based on a CF you have, you want to buy the full number - under the BP system.

More BP dumping in order to be competent.
1 rating 5 CF -> 5 Bp.
1 rating 5 program -> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) $2500 -> 1 BP
Thus a CF must be 5 times as awesome as a program. But it isn't. It's about twice as awesome only because the TM needs half as many of them.

It is as sane to gimp a competent mage with magic 2 as is gimping a TM with resonance 2. A mage with magic 2 is not deadly, try it with a full mage in background count. Quite a few unresisted matrix activities (Browse, Matrix Perception and even hacking a rating 3 node is possible with resonance 2. (Sourceror, rating 4 Probability Distribution service against the node for hacking; possible spoof pools go into the double digits.)

A mage with 2 magic and 6 spellcasting still has 8 dice towards a whole host of things (average 2-3 success on a force 2 spell--say....Invisibility?). Not to mention 4 counterspelling (how would the entire party like to double or better their willpower stat?)

Resonance is certainly an overloaded stat, but you hardly have an argument of weakness there, because you can elect to start with a resonance you are comfortable with, and because the high end of the TM power bracket is well able to deal with any problem. Play what you want!

It is a weakness because of the BP. We've overloaded the special stat, we've required (see your first point) 3 other mental stats to be soft-capped. We need Logic around 3 or so to have enough CFs to cover every thing. A hacker can get by with 1s in every attribute and spend 400 BP on things that make them awesome and sexy.

In other words, compared to a hacker a TM is a guy who slows down matrix combat because he has to roll dice twice as often in order to be just as good, while at the same time being a complete BP and Karma sinkhole.

[Ryu]

Force 2 invisibility spell = max. 2 hits, therefore absolutely likely zero net hits. Targets get to resist with intuition or willpower+counterspelling.

As for the power comparison, threading is enough to pull even with hackers, and then it´s not more dicerolling. Sprites are very cool, and you should use them.

[Draco18s]

How is threading not more dice rolling?

You have to roll for threading.

And point, invisibility was a bad choice. I'm not exactly up on the list of spells. I can however say that an Adept with 2 magic is still quite useful (throw all of it into armor: that's +4/+4 armor which you can't sneeze at).

[Matsci]

How is threading not more dice rolling?

You have to roll for threading.

And point, invisibility was a bad choice. I'm not exactly up on the list of spells. I can however say that an Adept with 2 magic is still quite useful (throw all of it into armor: that's +4/+4 armor which you can't sneeze at).

No, it's +2/+2 Armor. Max Ranks in Adept Powers are Capped at magic. And now you have a combat character with less bonus dice that 10 BP worth of Cyberware can use.

[Ryu]

How is threading not more dice rolling?

You have to roll for threading.

And point, invisibility was a bad choice. I'm not exactly up on the list of spells. I can however say that an Adept with 2 magic is still quite useful (throw all of it into armor: that's +4/+4 armor which you can't sneeze at).

Well, I would buy 3 hits for threading and fading, and call it done. Or buy 2 on each and call it done. The specific dicepool will only matter in a very few cases - IF your group adheres to the device rating table. Which I would strongly suggest. (Alternativly, see the Analyse=+2 for defense against hacking suggestion.)


(I also wish to add that I hope that you didn´t take my comment regarding your experiences as personal attack. I just remembered that your experience with one of the TM players was less-than-perfect, from a gaming POV. Are we good?)

[Draco18s]

No, it's +2/+2 Armor. Max Ranks in Adept Powers are Capped at magic. And now you have a combat character with less bonus dice that 10 BP worth of Cyberware can use.

Touche, I hadn't realized that ranks were limited by magic (doesn't effect the character I have who started with 4 magic and no more than 2 ranks in any given power.

Anyway, yes, cyberware can be less expensive than the magical variant (see Improved Reflexes--throw money at the problem and you can get Imp Ref 2 for less than 1.5 essence, which is 1.5 magic vs. 2 magic the adept power costs), but in some cases you can't use the cyberware (any playable HMHVV infected, drakes, and shapshifters).

Anyway, you haven't countered the base point that a weak mage is still useful while a weak technomancer isn't.

[Tiger Eyes]

Rules question: You draw them into the VR, so they would end up in your living node, yes? What if they have a DNI connection to an (internal) commlink? Can they use their programs on your living persona (for what little worth that might have)?

Hm. That's a great question, and one that hasn't come up in our game. Since if someone had a commlink with a DNI connection it's likely my TM would just hack the commlink and that'd be that.

I'd say, rules wise, that using Resonance Trodes would be just like hooking up a set of trodes on a person and linking them to a different commlink (in this case, the technomancer's living node). With the idea being that you can only have your brain in hot-sim/VR with one connection at a time (you cannot use two sets of trodes). They can switch back and forth, between trodes and an internal commlink, but not access both at the same time.

Remember the technomancer isn't hacking the person's internal commlink, but hacking the person's "brain" directly -- like if someone ran up to the person and slapped on some trodes and hooked them up to a hot-sim commlink (not their own). If you had an internal commlink, but someone forced some trodes on you and linked them to a different commlink, you couldn't use your own programs stored in your own commlink.

The Resonance Trodes prevent the person from accessing their own commlink (internal or external). A successful Opposed Test, by the rules, means the TM has overwhelmed the person and rendering them incapable of "switching" to their own commlink (or pulling out of VR/AR). (Hence the reason for the Opposed Test.)

Now, in our game, we have stated that another TM could use their complex forms when accessing the Resonance via Resonance Trodes. In fact, we've had two technomancers go into the deep resonance on a quest together. Fun times.

[Ryu]

Anyway, you haven't countered the base point that a weak mage is still useful while a weak technomancer isn't.

I have demonstrated the ability of resonance 4 technomancers to take well-defended rating 6 nodes. I don´t think that resonance 2 would permit you to surpass high-end agents in power. Both mage and TM can still be usefull in specific situations (levitate comes to mind, any movement is better than no movement in case of heavy loot), but both will often not even be able to perform (Background Count 2 / military installation rating 7 Nexus). A whole 21 karma for magic/resonance 4... who wouldn´t?

[Draco18s]

Is it true, or is it not true, that a poorly built technomancer has more problems than a (poorly built anything else)?

It seems to me that there is Only One technomancer build, whereas every other character has multitudes of options. Sure, some compromize effectiveness for interesting, flavor, or fun, but even in helpings of three or four they aren't detrimental ("I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice in order to fit my backstory" vs. "I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice for...you know, I'm not honestly sure, but that's what the rules say").

[BlueMax]

I have demonstrated the ability of resonance 4 technomancers to take well-defended rating 6 nodes. I don´t think that resonance 2 would permit you to surpass high-end agents in power. Both mage and TM can still be usefull in specific situations (levitate comes to mind, any movement is better than no movement in case of heavy loot), but both will often not even be able to perform (Background Count 2 / military installation rating 7 Nexus). A whole 21 karma for magic/resonance 4... who wouldn´t?

That 21 karma thing is assuming your using the Karma build, right? I am still only using BP, so its a different world for me. If only I wanst at work and could remember how different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

This is something, strangely enough, that has come up in our game 3 times already. Heck, just the last game, we assassinated someone in a room full of 18 other people, and they assumed it was a drug overdose. My poor little TM has become an assassin... It has less-lethal applications as well, like a great way to get someone to sleep when you don't want to risk any overflow damage (like a powerful stunball or stim patches can do), and a wonderful way to interogate someone - zap 'em into a really, really scary VR environment, and they can't escape. Heck, just pulling someone into VR and then letting them go gives them dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also it's a non-noticible way to communicate completely privately with team members - a quick touch of the hand, or an under-the-table bit of footsie, and you can communicate without your Mr. Johnson (or anyone else) noticing or overhearing. It also works great when a bad guy tries to grab you for a fate worse than death (or really, in melee combat - Touch Only attacks get a +2, y'know).

(can you tell we use Resonance Trodes in our game a lot?)

I thought that trodes had to be placed on the head.

[Tiger Eyes]

I thought that trodes had to be placed on the head.

Trodes do. In my opinion, Resonance Trodes are different. They simply require a touch. The technomancer is using the target's bioelectric field (read the Skinlink echo, which is the prerequisite to Resonance Trodes). If it had to be placed on the head, the description would state so (instead of saying it requires a touch-based unarmed attack). Note that when this was originally written, the first description used "his hands" rather than "his touch" in the description. We changed it for obvious reasons (like, what if you have no hands? Can't you kick someone and 'trode them that way? Although some freelancers made the obvious jokes you'd expect from a roomful of guys... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). I'd also say that since bioelectric fields extend slightly beyond the skin, and clothing does not interfere with the use of skinlinked devices, that a technomancer can use Resonance Trodes on someone even through light clothing. [In our game, we don't allow it through armor or heavy clothing]

[Ryu]

Is it true, or is it not true, that a poorly built technomancer has more problems than a (poorly built anything else)?

It seems to me that there is Only One technomancer build, whereas every other character has multitudes of options. Sure, some compromize effectiveness for interesting, flavor, or fun, but even in helpings of three or four they aren't detrimental ("I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice in order to fit my backstory" vs. "I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice for...you know, I'm not honestly sure, but that's what the rules say").

Almost true, poorly build hackers have the same problems, but can correct them on the cheap. I think it´s a matrix rules thing.

There are tons of possible TM builds - more so if you use the karma system. Munching a TM with 400 BP is a bit complex, but getting one that will work is pretty easy. The question is not "how many dice would a munched hacker have", but "how many dice do you need?"

Any problems are caused by TMs being on an exponential power scale. The instinctive min/maxing is counterproductive if you increase your matrix power beyond what you can use. And it is absolutely possible to walk out of 400 BP chargen with the ability to take any rating 6 node.

[Tycho]

a problem I see in TM builds is, that you can hardly explain, why the character only has matrix skills, because a TM can only be a technomancing since the Crash and there must be something he was doing before and it is unlikely, that he has forgotten everything of his non technomancing live. There a some little exeptions here: 1. a otaku-technomancer who survived the crash an didn't burn out, but fluffwise these are rare. 2. your TM is a teen and so 6years ago he was something like 12 years old.

my own TM is above 30 and he was a coroner (in Fort Lewis' CID), before he "awakened". So I gave him good medical skills, which leads to a lack of BPs, therefore he started with 1 in the cracking group. So if you try to build a TM with a proper background story and skills, there are much to less BP.

cya
Tycho

[Ryu]

If you min/max without shame, a 400 BP TM can start with a "karmic worth" of about 700. With max. positive and no negative qualities. The problem is not "can´t afford", the problem is "greedy bastard". (And I certainly understand, I prefer the karma system because it pacifies my efficiency-minded self.)

Going with resonance 5 (maxed CFs) instead of resonance 6 (maxed CFs) gains you 37 BP or 90 karma. That can buy 2 or 6 attributes from 1->3. Only one is likely to happen without perceived need.
The deduction that you need to min/max TMs is still wrong, because TMs can mechanically work from resonance 4 upwards. (Maybe even resonance 3 for street campaigns, but I lack experience with that kind of game.) If you go with lower resonance/CFs/skills, you have enough points for other stuff.

[ornot]

Do you have a ref. to say that threading a CF can be done reflexively without taking any action?

I read my BBB and Unwired quite carefully the other night and found no reference to this interpretation. It doesn't state that threading takes an action, but nor does it state that it can be done in response to an attack to generate a protective program for that roll only. Even then you have to cope with the Fading, requiring further investment of BPs (or karma if you're that way inclined) to max your Fading pool, and adding significantly more rolls to your game.

[Tiger Eyes]

Do you have a ref. to say that threading a CF can be done reflexively without taking any action?

I read my BBB and Unwired quite carefully the other night and found no reference to this interpretation. It doesn't state that threading takes an action, but nor does it state that it can be done in response to an attack to generate a protective program for that roll only. Even then you have to cope with the Fading, requiring further investment of BPs (or karma if you're that way inclined) to max your Fading pool, and adding significantly more rolls to your game.

From the FAQ:

Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that complex form?

The act of threading itself requires no action -- but the complex form being threaded does. Threaded complex forms must also be sustained, as noted. The -2 modifier for sustaining does not apply to use of that threaded complex form, but it does apply to all other actions the technomancer makes.

[shuya]

The thing which bugs me the most is that I see no way a TM could do the stuff they do in the fluff under the rules given for TMs. Anyone care to explain how even a gang of TMs screwed the UN in Geneva as described in Feral Cities? Are we going to assume that all the rampaging virtuakinetics were heavily submerged with maxed Resonance?

Dissonance.

One non-submerged dissonant specialized in compiling with a couple meltdown sprites could Surge (damage to the DEVICE, not matrix condition monitor) a node into absolute non-functionality in a few seconds or less. Which of course is pointless on Joe Average's commlink, but if you target infrastructure and major physical matrix chokepoints, you can cause a lot of damage real fast. Consider the potential for just three dissonants working together, one hacking, one frying nodes, and one running cybercombat overwatch.

It wasn't just the TM's causing damage on their lonesome, either - rioting caused by loss of infrastructure, pro-emerged groups, viruses, and feral AI's either drawn to or intentionally released in the shattered Geneva grid. Ex-Pacis and Winternight managed to take down the whole WORLD'S matrix - the issue is not that it is impossible to cause this much damage: it is in fact very very easy if you're smart - but that, when it happens, you need a way to capitalize on it, because nobody smart enough to cause that much damage would let the opportunities that arise from it go to waste.

[Ryu]

Run idea:
Assume you have an agile runner team. They get an urgent message from one of their sources that the security nodes of corp X in Seattle will be down for at least one hour, or until rebooted manually by an admin. Most of the admins are supposed to be dead.
No planning - drive home, choose gear, select best available target, go. Fence goods without being caught.

[Jaid]

Dissonance.

One non-submerged dissonant specialized in compiling with a couple meltdown sprites could Surge (damage to the DEVICE, not matrix condition monitor) a node into absolute non-functionality in a few seconds or less. Which of course is pointless on Joe Average's commlink, but if you target infrastructure and major physical matrix chokepoints, you can cause a lot of damage real fast. Consider the potential for just three dissonants working together, one hacking, one frying nodes, and one running cybercombat overwatch.

It wasn't just the TM's causing damage on their lonesome, either - rioting caused by loss of infrastructure, pro-emerged groups, viruses, and feral AI's either drawn to or intentionally released in the shattered Geneva grid. Ex-Pacis and Winternight managed to take down the whole WORLD'S matrix - the issue is not that it is impossible to cause this much damage: it is in fact very very easy if you're smart - but that, when it happens, you need a way to capitalize on it, because nobody smart enough to cause that much damage would let the opportunities that arise from it go to waste.

also, dissonant technomancers can cheat. they get to make dissonance pools (or wells, or whatever they call them) from one of their echoes which means that even crappy dissonant technomancers can do some scary stuff if there is even a single powerful dissonant TM around to prepare an area.