Use of Dodge, Well, is it really a necessary skill? Options

[Michel]

Hello everybody,

I just started SR4 and found your really active Forum! Great! Don't really know how else to introduce myself...

I just created a character and suggested it to my MD...

Reaction: Dodge fails...

So I wonder, why to take dodge? IS there any other use than in Melee Combat? And if not, why to take when one can parry and block?

Plus, dodge is not part of any group, which makes it an "expensive" skill.... I could also nearly complain about perception which is part of no group... but that one is really necessary!

Thanks!

[toturi]

Hello everybody,

I just started SR4 and found your really active Forum! Great! Don't really know how else to introduce myself...

I just created a character and suggested it to my MD...

Reaction: Dodge fails...

So I wonder, why to take dodge? IS there any other use than in Melee Combat? And if not, why to take when one can parry and block?

Plus, dodge is not part of any group, which makes it an "expensive" skill.... I could also nearly complain about perception which is part of no group... but that one is really necessary!

Thanks!

MD? What's that?

Dodge is pretty good for Full Dodge. Reaction + Dodge against Range and Reaction + Dodge + Dodge/melee skill against melee is pretty good if your character is a defensive build when in physical combat.

[Ard3]

Some say that if you have Gymnastics and melee skill, you dont really need Dodge.
You can then use Gymnastic dodge agains ranged and melee skill when in melee.

Also Gymnastic can be used to do more things and is part of a skillgroup (Athletics).

If you are going to take Dodge, take enough to be useful.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Some say that if you have Gymnastics and melee skill, you dont really need Dodge.

..and if you plan to be never shot at while driving a vehicle - in which case only Dodge, limited by vehicle skill, will do for a Full Dodge.

Of course, avoiding cover fire depends on Dodge specifically, too.

[Dwight]

Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice.

Any time you are out-ranged, it is the better choice.

[AllTheNothing]

Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.

Why would it be a choise of inaction?
If I'm not mistaken gymnastic dodge requires entering in full defence, which happens to take an action preventing from doing other things. While dodge can be used reflexively without taking an action, unless you chose to use full dodge, allowing you to attempt other actions.

[Dwight]

Any time you are out-ranged, it is the better choice.

I didn't say "never". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How often does that happen, and you shouldn't be running or otherwise be getting out of their range or into your range? Yeah, same ol' Rotbart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Ard3]

To Michel:
There are long topics about good and bad sides of Dodge and Gymnastics, but I'd say choose what fits the consept of your character.
Play what is fun and/or interesting character, even if it is not thoroughly twinked and optimized.

[Dwight]

Why would it be a choise of inaction?

Unless you do a Full Dodge it's just substitution [for something that is probably higher].

[Rotbart van Dain...]

How often does that happen?

Often enough not to want to be a sitting duck.

[Dwight]

Often enough not to want to be a sitting duck.

Sitting Duck is also the Choice of Losers. Running Duck is much better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) EDIT: Better than both normally.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And running is a free action, leaving you the complex action to go on full dodge.

[Dwight]

And running is a free action, leaving you the complex action to go on full dodge.

Run more.

EDIT: I've played entire campaigns without the thought "damn I could use Dodge right now" entering my mind. Because there were so many other things to try do that were more proactive. Trying to fix the situation rather than delay the innevitable. But maybe that's just because I spent those BP and Karma on other Skills instead of dropping them into Dodge? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, to wrap it up because I'm sure Rotbart will drone on and on all day, yes Michel "Dodge fails..." is dead on. There are few appropriate uses for it. It happens but it doesn't happen very often in actual play. On the otherhand if you'd like to play a character to that turtles a lot, if that fits the concept, have at it!

[ElFenrir]

The Dodge vs. Gymnastics debate has gone on for awhile. One side says one is better, one side another, and another side said both are about the same.

Funny enough, no one seems to think you should take BOTH of these skills, even though they both seem to be useful in their own way, which makes me believe you are indeed fine with one or the other depending on your character.

[Michel]

Wow, quite a few answer in a short time....

A MD is the Game Master... sorry about that...

Thanks for all those hints... I'll reflect it further...

And Dodge is really effective against ranged attacks?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And Dodge is really effective against ranged attacks?

Huh? You defend against ranged attack only using an attribute, while the attacker gets attribute plus skill - going on full defense is the only option to get skill, too. If you are running around, you can use melee or gymnastics, too - if you are driving, dodge is your only option.

And as you only can go on full defense as an interrupt action, you'll need one of those skills you can use. Or, of course, you can accept that you'll be hit.

Because there were so many other things to try do that were more proactive.

So you have the houserule to do 'proactive stuff' as an interrupt action like going on full defense, too?

Funny enough, no one seems to think you should take BOTH of these skills, even though they both seem to be useful in their own way, which makes me believe you are indeed fine with one or the other depending on your character.

Actually, you need both - dodge won't allow you to jump anywhere, as won't melee... and neither gymnastics nor melee will do much while driving or evading cover fire.

[Larme]

Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.

Dodge is the choice of winners, if they know the formula of SR4 combat. The formula is: get shot at, go on full defense, take a move action to get into cover, THEN start shooting. If you do anything other than full dodge while standing in the open, you're going to get hurt, unless your opposition really sucks. Kind of like IRL. SR4 combat isn't exactly deadly, because armor converts damage to stun, but it's certainly not viable to soak bullets unless you're a bullet eating troll, and even then you can still get hurt by small arms fire. So no, Full Dodge is never the wrong decision when you're out in the open. When you have cover, allowing you to retaliate without being capped in the face, only then does full dodge become a bad idea.

[Jaid]

in general, dodge is a good choice if you are going to be playing a character who is already tight for BP. if you are a sammy, you probably don't care about dodge. if you're a TM, then dodge is your friend, because you're not gonna be the one putting bullets into anything, and you can barely afford having the one defensive skill(dodge) let alone taking the 2 you would need to cover yourself fully (melee skill + gymnastics).

plus all the other stuff mentioned above.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

if you are a sammy, you probably don't care about dodge.

..if you don't drive a bike or car, that is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

..if you don't drive a bike or car, that is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You know, I just can't find the rule anywhere. Where does it say, in the actual rules, that you cannot use Gymnastics to dodge while in a car?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You know, I just can't find the rule anywhere. Where does it say, in the actual rules, that you cannot use Gymnastics to dodge while in a car?

If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

But my point is rather that for driving the vehicle, Dodge is the only option to go on Full Defense as of p. 204, Unwired.

[Mäx]

If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

But my point is rather that for driving the vehicle, Dodge is the only option to go on Full Defense as of p. 204, Unwired.

Thats for a jumped in rigger.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Or anyone controlling in AR (and VR).

[Draco18s]

Or anyone controlling in AR (and VR).

Last I checked I don't use AR to drive my car today, so I am not limited.
Therefor, a SR charcater can do the same, thus gym dodging while driving.

This still sounds like BS to me, but I'm just following the logic presented.