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Michel
Hello everybody,

I just started SR4 and found your really active Forum! Great! Don't really know how else to introduce myself...

I just created a character and suggested it to my MD...

Reaction: Dodge fails...

So I wonder, why to take dodge? IS there any other use than in Melee Combat? And if not, why to take when one can parry and block?

Plus, dodge is not part of any group, which makes it an "expensive" skill.... I could also nearly complain about perception which is part of no group... but that one is really necessary!

Thanks!

toturi
QUOTE (Michel @ Feb 15 2009, 09:55 PM) *
Hello everybody,

I just started SR4 and found your really active Forum! Great! Don't really know how else to introduce myself...

I just created a character and suggested it to my MD...

Reaction: Dodge fails...

So I wonder, why to take dodge? IS there any other use than in Melee Combat? And if not, why to take when one can parry and block?

Plus, dodge is not part of any group, which makes it an "expensive" skill.... I could also nearly complain about perception which is part of no group... but that one is really necessary!

Thanks!

MD? What's that?

Dodge is pretty good for Full Dodge. Reaction + Dodge against Range and Reaction + Dodge + Dodge/melee skill against melee is pretty good if your character is a defensive build when in physical combat.
Ard3
Some say that if you have Gymnastics and melee skill, you dont really need Dodge.
You can then use Gymnastic dodge agains ranged and melee skill when in melee.

Also Gymnastic can be used to do more things and is part of a skillgroup (Athletics).

If you are going to take Dodge, take enough to be useful.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ard3 @ Feb 15 2009, 03:39 PM) *
Some say that if you have Gymnastics and melee skill, you dont really need Dodge.

..and if you plan to be never shot at while driving a vehicle - in which case only Dodge, limited by vehicle skill, will do for a Full Dodge.

Of course, avoiding cover fire depends on Dodge specifically, too.
Dwight
Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Dwight @ Feb 15 2009, 04:05 PM) *
There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice.

Any time you are out-ranged, it is the better choice.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Dwight @ Feb 15 2009, 04:05 PM) *
Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.

Why would it be a choise of inaction?
If I'm not mistaken gymnastic dodge requires entering in full defence, which happens to take an action preventing from doing other things. While dodge can be used reflexively without taking an action, unless you chose to use full dodge, allowing you to attempt other actions.
Dwight
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 08:09 AM) *
Any time you are out-ranged, it is the better choice.

I didn't say "never". smile.gif How often does that happen, and you shouldn't be running or otherwise be getting out of their range or into your range? Yeah, same ol' Rotbart. rotfl.gif
Ard3
To Michel:
There are long topics about good and bad sides of Dodge and Gymnastics, but I'd say choose what fits the consept of your character.
Play what is fun and/or interesting character, even if it is not thoroughly twinked and optimized.
Dwight
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Feb 15 2009, 08:12 AM) *
Why would it be a choise of inaction?

Unless you do a Full Dodge it's just substitution [for something that is probably higher].
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Dwight @ Feb 15 2009, 04:18 PM) *
How often does that happen?

Often enough not to want to be a sitting duck.
Dwight
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 08:21 AM) *
Often enough not to want to be a sitting duck.

Sitting Duck is also the Choice of Losers. Running Duck is much better. smile.gif EDIT: Better than both normally.
Rotbart van Dainig
And running is a free action, leaving you the complex action to go on full dodge.
Dwight
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 08:29 AM) *
And running is a free action, leaving you the complex action to go on full dodge.

Run more.

EDIT: I've played entire campaigns without the thought "damn I could use Dodge right now" entering my mind. Because there were so many other things to try do that were more proactive. Trying to fix the situation rather than delay the innevitable. But maybe that's just because I spent those BP and Karma on other Skills instead of dropping them into Dodge? smile.gif So, to wrap it up because I'm sure Rotbart will drone on and on all day, yes Michel "Dodge fails..." is dead on. There are few appropriate uses for it. It happens but it doesn't happen very often in actual play. On the otherhand if you'd like to play a character to that turtles a lot, if that fits the concept, have at it!
ElFenrir
The Dodge vs. Gymnastics debate has gone on for awhile. One side says one is better, one side another, and another side said both are about the same.

Funny enough, no one seems to think you should take BOTH of these skills, even though they both seem to be useful in their own way, which makes me believe you are indeed fine with one or the other depending on your character.
Michel
Wow, quite a few answer in a short time....

A MD is the Game Master... sorry about that...

Thanks for all those hints... I'll reflect it further...

And Dodge is really effective against ranged attacks?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Michel @ Feb 15 2009, 04:52 PM) *
And Dodge is really effective against ranged attacks?

Huh? You defend against ranged attack only using an attribute, while the attacker gets attribute plus skill - going on full defense is the only option to get skill, too. If you are running around, you can use melee or gymnastics, too - if you are driving, dodge is your only option.

And as you only can go on full defense as an interrupt action, you'll need one of those skills you can use. Or, of course, you can accept that you'll be hit.
QUOTE (Dwight @ Feb 15 2009, 04:30 PM) *
Because there were so many other things to try do that were more proactive.

So you have the houserule to do 'proactive stuff' as an interrupt action like going on full defense, too?
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Feb 15 2009, 04:30 PM) *
Funny enough, no one seems to think you should take BOTH of these skills, even though they both seem to be useful in their own way, which makes me believe you are indeed fine with one or the other depending on your character.

Actually, you need both - dodge won't allow you to jump anywhere, as won't melee... and neither gymnastics nor melee will do much while driving or evading cover fire.
Larme
QUOTE (Dwight @ Feb 15 2009, 10:05 AM) *
Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.


Dodge is the choice of winners, if they know the formula of SR4 combat. The formula is: get shot at, go on full defense, take a move action to get into cover, THEN start shooting. If you do anything other than full dodge while standing in the open, you're going to get hurt, unless your opposition really sucks. Kind of like IRL. SR4 combat isn't exactly deadly, because armor converts damage to stun, but it's certainly not viable to soak bullets unless you're a bullet eating troll, and even then you can still get hurt by small arms fire. So no, Full Dodge is never the wrong decision when you're out in the open. When you have cover, allowing you to retaliate without being capped in the face, only then does full dodge become a bad idea.
Jaid
in general, dodge is a good choice if you are going to be playing a character who is already tight for BP. if you are a sammy, you probably don't care about dodge. if you're a TM, then dodge is your friend, because you're not gonna be the one putting bullets into anything, and you can barely afford having the one defensive skill(dodge) let alone taking the 2 you would need to cover yourself fully (melee skill + gymnastics).

plus all the other stuff mentioned above.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 15 2009, 06:08 PM) *
if you are a sammy, you probably don't care about dodge.

..if you don't drive a bike or car, that is. wink.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 09:20 AM) *
..if you don't drive a bike or car, that is. wink.gif

You know, I just can't find the rule anywhere. Where does it say, in the actual rules, that you cannot use Gymnastics to dodge while in a car?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 15 2009, 06:43 PM) *
You know, I just can't find the rule anywhere. Where does it say, in the actual rules, that you cannot use Gymnastics to dodge while in a car?

If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

But my point is rather that for driving the vehicle, Dodge is the only option to go on Full Defense as of p. 204, Unwired.
Mäx
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 07:59 PM) *
If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

But my point is rather that for driving the vehicle, Dodge is the only option to go on Full Defense as of p. 204, Unwired.

Thats for a jumped in rigger.
Rotbart van Dainig
Or anyone controlling in AR (and VR).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 01:16 PM) *
Or anyone controlling in AR (and VR).


Last I checked I don't use AR to drive my car today, so I am not limited.
Therefor, a SR charcater can do the same, thus gym dodging while driving.

This still sounds like BS to me, but I'm just following the logic presented.
wind_in_the_stones
I think full dodge is (theoretically) a perfectly acceptable answer to being engaged by a more powerful opponent - stay alive until help arrives. My problem with it is that it's so weak. If you're not good enough in combat to fight and do some damage, you're probably not good enough to avoid damage with a full dodge. Reaction 4, dodge 3 - perfectly average, right? Ten dice are not enough to save you.
Draco18s
Whereas 10x2 dice (short bursts) to shooting probably is.
Ryu
ItĀ“s better to dodge narrow long bursts with 7 dice than with 4...
Cain
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 15 2009, 09:59 AM) *
If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

Where does it say that a gymnastics dodge must involve "flipping out"? I can't find that rule anywhere.
Matsci
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 15 2009, 06:20 PM) *
Where does it say that a gymnastics dodge must involve "flipping out"? I can't find that rule anywhere.


QUOTE ( Page 151 BBB)
Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks


That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Matsci @ Feb 15 2009, 09:30 PM) *
That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.


Also in a city master, it seems it would be difficult as well. Or actually kinda of a moot point.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Feb 16 2009, 04:13 AM) *
Reaction 4, dodge 3 - perfectly average, right? Ten dice are not enough to save you.


You only get 10 dice (REA + dodge x2) do dodge melee attacks.
Against ranged attacks you are stuck with only 7 dice (REA + dodge).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Feb 15 2009, 11:37 PM) *
You only get 10 dice (REA + dodge x2) do dodge melee attacks.
Against ranged attacks you are stuck with only 7 dice (REA + dodge).


Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).
Cain
QUOTE (Matsci @ Feb 15 2009, 06:30 PM) *
That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.

But not in the back of a van.
Sir_Psycho
That actually does sound very difficult. Not to mention that they're talking about using the dodge skill to avoid the vehicle being hit.
Jaid
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 16 2009, 12:02 AM) *
Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).

1) you can add edge *and* dodge. this should be fairly obviously an advantage over using just edge, but you don't seem to acknowledge this in any way here.
2) 1 more net hit on a dodge test could mean 1 point less damage. it could also mean *no* damage, if you cause the attacker to miss or if you cost them their ability to breach a vehicle's armor, or it could mean the damage becomes stun (and can be slept off), or if it's a spirit it could mean the attack bounces off of hardened armor, etc.

so actually, that 1 hit difference can make a huge difference actually. it can make the difference between "they won't be able to find a large enough sample to make a clone of you to download your brain into in a crazy experiment" and "not even scratched." that's a pretty big difference, if you ask me.
Ryu
To elaborate on JaidĀ“s second argument: Equal pools is a to-hit chance of about 40% (defender wins on ties), a +3 advantage on the side of the attacker is already a 60% to-hit chance.

Translation: If the stars are right, a piddling "+3 to defense pool" on full defense can reduce enemy to-hit chances by 1/3.
Larme
QUOTE (Matsci @ Feb 15 2009, 09:30 PM) *
That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.


Nuh uh! I did a cartwheel on a motorcycle on my way to school the other day, just for laughs >_>
ElFenrir
Oh, if I were playing a rigger or such, I'd take Dodge, no doubt, or a go-ganger who specialized in combat on the back of my motorcycle.

But in many situations, points are limited. I wouldn't expect someone playing Master Bob, Sword Guy to manage to max out both Dodge and Gymnastics as high as they'd go at the start. Gymnastics, in Bob's case, would suffice quite well. Sure, he'd be kinda stuck in his car, but then again, I'd probably give someone a -DP modifier if they were sitting, strapped into their front seat, and were shot at, even if they were using the Dodge skill. Gymnastics, yes, would be flat out, but I might be kind and allow a bit of wiggle room to sorta lean out of the way, but strapped in without some room to move, it would be difficult.

A firearms expert, I'd say Dodge is the better bet, though Gymnastics wouldn't completely suck. They might well have the Athletics Group already, and if they were strapped for points, an athletics group 2 plus a Synthacardium 2-3 or whatever could keep them alive enough until they can get some Dodge(Ranged.) Non-combat characters, yes, Dodge would be the way to go as well.

Most situations seem to lean toward Dodge, but for a ground-based melee expert, Gymnastics is kinda the way to go, IMO. It wouldn't hurt them to maybe pop some karma on some Dodge for those very tight-places, but I wouldn't say for someone to sweat about it if they couldn't get it in chargen.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 16 2009, 04:28 AM) *
To elaborate on JaidĀ“s second argument: Equal pools is a to-hit chance of about 40% (defender wins on ties), a +3 advantage on the side of the attacker is already a 60% to-hit chance.

Translation: If the stars are right, a piddling "+3 to defense pool" on full defense can reduce enemy to-hit chances by 1/3.


Now do 4 dice vs. 20 pre-dodge.

Yes, our sniper throws 20 dice. Me, the "65 racial BP short of appearances" has only 12 (and not enough recoil compensation to do more than 2 short bursts without losing dice).

Therefor, adding 3 dice isn't going to bring the odds down to equal pools level, it'll bring it down to "+3 to +6 on the side of the attacker."
Jaid
changing from +6 to +3 is still a good idea. it *still* increases your chance of completely dodging. throw in a smoke grenade, flashpack, cover, or whatever, and you can get your chances of not turning into a fine red mist increased. that's generally considered a good thing where i come from.

oh, and to those who are talking about dodging strapped into the seatbelt etc: dodge is used for making the whole vehicle dodge. gymnastics does nothing for that. that's the point people are making with vehicles dodging.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 16 2009, 01:02 AM) *
Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).


Going from 16 DV damage to 15 DV might not be much, but going from 16 Dv to 0 DV by avoiding being hit in the first place might be worth it. There's plenty of variations in how the odds can affect your decision making.
Draco18s
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 16 2009, 04:44 PM) *
Going from 16 DV damage to 15 DV might not be much, but going from 16 Dv to 0 DV by avoiding being hit in the first place might be worth it. There's plenty of variations in how the odds can affect your decision making.


If 3 dice is going to do that for me, then I'll edge. wink.gif The likely hood that Dodge makes a difference is really small.
Whipstitch
It's really dumb to look at Dodge in terms of Fail or Succeed. Hits on your Dodge test effectively remove hits from your opponent's attack test which in effect lowers the damage value of the attack. Not having a Defense skill of some sort makes you highly vulnerable to attrition from mooks. Death by a thousand cuts as opposed to a full burst is still a death.
Draco18s
Death by 1000 cuts (while not returning fire) or Return Fire?

Dodging is losing in the end. All you can do is run away.
Malicant
And since running away is not manly, it is better to die, like a real man should do.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 16 2009, 05:47 PM) *
And since running away is not manly, it is better to die, like a real man should do.


Yes. When I open a door on my way out of a building after having set explosives in the research labs and security is there with guns, I'm going to run the other way. Mmm. Yes. Away from the exit. Towards 4 kilos of C4.

sleepy.gif
Malicant
It's still hillarious. Dodge helps you survive, but since it does not help you kill people, which you are too dumb to avoid, it sucks. Does this sum it up better?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 16 2009, 07:09 PM) *
It's still hillarious. Dodge helps you survive, but since it does not help you kill people, which you are too dumb to avoid, it sucks. Does this sum it up better?


I'm too dumb to avoid it?

I should point out that I was the only one who wasn't making noise that session.
Larme
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 16 2009, 05:45 PM) *
Death by 1000 cuts (while not returning fire) or Return Fire?

Dodging is losing in the end. All you can do is run away.


You'll only lose if you start dodging and continue to dodge. If you use dodge to get into a superior position which either grants you cover or negates the enemy's cover, then you are not setting yourself up to lose.
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