It's actually trivially easy to use Full Defense while returning fire, since declaring Full Defense can be used as an interrupt action. You can actually shoot one guy to death and wait 'till his friends start shooting back before burning your next pass on Defense-- in other words, you don't even have to cede the first salvo to use Full Defense. If you're wired for speed and your opponent isn't, you can quite literally enjoy Full Defense against their attacks while firing as much as they do within a turn, if not more. It's a big part of why any smart min-maxer values Initiative Passes and Defense pools so highly; the ability to both attack and defend within the same turn ranks just below Surprise and monstrous dice pools in the list of things that can allow you to utterly dominate an opponent. Now, if you're facing off against a bunch of veteran Red Samurai or something, that changes things, but not every battle is going to be against high caliber opposition that threatens to match you in passes. You still need to be able to safely dominate those mook fights, however, or else you'll be in no position to hold off the big guns when they do arrive. And frankly, mooks can't be underestimated in Shadowrun; a couple Lone Star officers firing long wide bursts from their Colt Cobras can easily leave a 5 Reaction runner with a dicepool of 0 to defend with. Anyone slower than that and we start talking about getting hit by narrow bursts and talking about insta-gib territory. You really don't want to go down that road; there be dragons.

Besides, this is Shadowrun, not the Game That Shall Not Be Named; you're probably not going to get extra Karma for standing and fighting when you should be making break for the damn getaway car anyway. Sometimes running away is a perfectly acceptable option.

Who is truly dumb, the guy running into avoidable opposition, or the guy following him? And unless your GM is a jerk, any opposition can somehow be avoided.

This is so much fun.

But seriously, if you are utterly unable to utilize full defense, because it stops you from hurting people for a fraction of a second, just stack initiative (and passes), attack pool and Edge, so that you can simply kill everything before it can hurt you. Enjoy!

So, I have three passes and the guys I'm fighting have three passes. I go, lets say first. I shoot, then they shoot back (I burn a complex action dodging. Then it's my second pass (used). Then theirs, I dodge. Then it's my third (used).

Wait. This is still using up my complex actions just as fast! And if I go second (slower initiative) then I don't even get to shoot once. Your point has been countered and defeated.



See above.



GM's not a jerk. He's been rolling dice to accumulate successes towards "our being noticed" with the hacker (NPC) trying to counter the alerts that go out. It got too hot for him after the third one that we then had to deal with it. As for that particular room, the mage asked his force 6 fire spirit to take care of the problem. All the guards ran away.

My point however remains that Dodge is borderline useless:

If I'm doing things right and avoiding confrontation then I don't need dodge at all.
If I mess up then either a) I use the dodge and get the hell out or b) fuck it and have fun with the firearms.

Slightly/mildly offtopic, if the guys you are fighting have 3 passes each, either your GM is quite hardline(not an insult, but noticably hardline, since 3 passes are usually saved for higher end opponents, and usually not groups of them) or you guys seriously did something to piss some high-up people off. Teams of Red Samurai don't even have 3 passes(a Lieutenant does, but there is usually only one of them with the group, unless there's a LOT of them, in which case, Dodge is the least of your worries.) [/offtopic]

THAT being said, I'm more of a gymnastics dodge fan myself(being more of a melee fan), but I still think the skill has it's uses.

Hmm...perhaps the above situation isn't as offtopic as I thought. See, fighting teams of people with 3+ passes just doesn't happen in normal games(unless, again, the GM is uber-ultra-hardline or the PCs manage to seriously piss off a loooot of powerful people.) Maybe in that situation, Dodge isn't as useful as it is in a typical game(goons have one pass, a higher up goon might have 2 with his Jazz popper, etc.) The situation above is so...either unlikely or in an extremely high-powered game(again, in which case, the PCs are likely to be even more juiced up so they can take teams of people with 3 passes), that I can still say these skills are still useful.

I don't know how many passes those goons had, they ran away before it came up. But the GM doesn't use anything with less than 2 passes because they're so easy to get and so necessary.

if they have 2 passes and you have 3, then you either go first and shoot, dodge, dodge, or they go first and you dodge, dodge, shoot, if needed. if you've got things at the point where you don't need to worry about defending, then fine, go ahead and just shoot. and the above only becomes more true if you have 4 or even 5 IPs (such as a rigger with appropriate 'ware). if you can just hold tight until the other guy can no longer attack, then you don't need to worry about defending. until that time, a bigger defense pool is not a bad thing.

nobody is saying that you should always defend and never attack. what we're saying is that when it's time to go on the defensive, you just might want to be able to actually go on the defensive. it may very well be that your best chance at surviving a given situation is not to fight, but to run (for example, if you can't penetrate hardened armor or vehicle/structure armor on your target, or if you can run for a bit to reach a more tactically strong position, or whatever). nobody here is saying you should never go on the offensive, they're saying that there will probably be times when you really want to defend well, and when those times come up it's a good idea to have a better defense pool. i don't see what's so hard to grasp, here. yes, you will eventually have to do something about the people following you (and assuming you can't just lose them, then you will obviously have to go on the offensive at some point). but if you can get to a position where you have the advantage and then deal with your opponent, or if you can lose them and all you need is a little bit more time, then you are going to want to be better able to survive, and that is what dodge (and/or gymnastics dodge and/or melee skills) allow you to do. this becomes especially true if physical combat is not your forte; a technomancer's place is not to pick up the HMG and take out the security guards, and may not even have the BP for an actual offensive skill to begin with. (or at least, not a physical offensive skill). not every character made is going to have 20 dice for their attack rolls, and it may be better for the team if they just dodge until they get into cover so that they can do whatever it is that they *are* good at (like getting the doors to open so that you can all get away, scrambling enemy communications, subverting enemy drones, conjuring another spirit, or whatever it is that you do).

like i said, dodge itself is not a skill that heavily combat-oriented characters should be taking most likely (or even those who have it as a secondary specialty). it is the skill of choice for noncombatants. gymnastics dodge is a good thing to have for samurai, because they probably want to have a decent gymnastics skill to begin with (the skill group that includes the skill also includes climbing, running, jumping, etc, and is probably a good buy for a sammy) and they may at some point want to have the option to defend. because after all, not having options is what's gonna get you killed. and your 4 dice are not going to be a good example either. for the right person, their defense pool may go up by 9 or even more (MBW III with dodge 6 (ranged +2), adepts with IA:gymnastics and synthacardium, sammies with synthacardium and reflex recorders, etc).

Declaring victory? I wasn't even aware anyone was keeping score. You purposely left out the part where I already said that staying purely on the offensive might be the better idea against opponents who can match you in passes. But most characters in the Shadowrun world don't have 3 passes. In fact, drones and Spirits are actually stuck with 2 passes unless someone is jumped into the former or sustaining an Increase Reflexes spell on the latter or fighting one on the Astral. Full Defense actions don't need to be an automatic winning proposition in all situations for the Dodge skill to be useful or worth taking. If you're up against multiple guys roughly as powerful as the LoneStar Lieutenants featured as examples in the main book (10 Pistols dice, 1 pass each), then you're probably better off taking a man out, going on Full Defense in order to avoid return fire (honestly not that hard when you have around a dozen or so Full Defense dice and your opponents are facing cover or range penalties; at the very least you're a helluva lot less likely to be instagibbed by narrow bursts or face automatic knockdowns) and taking another man down with your final pass. It's at least as valid a scenario as the one you just suggested, since very few characters have 3 IPs and virtually nobody has 4 without the use of Edge. Also, here's another thought: there's two primary ways Samurai find themselves unable to fire on their second pass: 1. You've already burnt it staying alive or 2. Your ass got shot. In an inherently team based game, I'll take my chances with the former, thank you very much.

I have only just recently gotten my third pass (i.e. this last session--actually before Karma wise, and prior to this run, but last session was the first combat).

You also still haven't convinced me that dodge is good. A well built gunbunny should be killing people (or knocking them out) in one shot (i.e. a complex action or less). A man down on their side is generally more effective than staving off a little damage.

What's your plan when you're facing more than 2 or 3 people? Are you just going to keel over because some rent-a-cop looked at you funny with his pistol full of stick and shock? It's not uncommon for me to throw things like 2 or 3 guards, 3 drones and a bound Spirit at my players. They don't all focus fire on one guy or anything, since I think that kind of coordination is going to be rather difficult for anything other than a mob of drones, but it's pretty atypical for my 4 man group of players to take out all of their opposition in one pass in a real firefight.

Obviously have two or three gunbunnies in front of me.

Have I mentioned that my characters don't need the common sense quality? Whereas at least two of my fellow players have pretty much been given it for free because they're completely clueless.

Then can you at least cede the idea that perhaps your group is a bit of a special case here and that Dodge isn't a useless ability? I mean, you're essentially saying "My team has 2 or 3 meatheads with street samurai level offense in it so I never have to worry about return fire. Victory through superior firepower." That's not typical or even plausible in most games. Personally, if I had such a group at my table, my fixers wouldn't even offer them anything but enforcer or mercenary type jobs against heavily armed opposition. A group with 3 or 4 gun bunnies would be up against paramilitary forces or bug spirits, (AKA, Gun Bunnies with what amounts to Hardened Armor) because apparently the ability to kill everyone and raze places to the ground is where their talents lie. They wouldn't get anything requiring subtlety, they'd get sent in to steal prototypes from an Ares testing facility, leading to situations like being on the wrong end of a pintle mounted GE Vindicator minigun. My current group of players has one Mage, one Adept specialized in Infiltration and Social skills, one Hacker and a Samurai/wheel man. Trust me, when you're the designated risk taker like the Samurai is, you come to value a defense pool rather quickly.


Also, FYI, my characters with Dodge typically gain at least 6 or 7 dice from using Full Dodge. I don't really see much point in taking it in piddly doses.

if you're dodging a big enough attack, it's not gonna be a little damage. and once again, there are more character types than gunbunnies. hacking is not a useless skill just because your gunbunny doesn't need it for shooting people. it just isn't the greatest choice for a gunbunny. in fact, for a gunbunny, i would much more strongly recommend that you pick up gymnastics dodge, because 9 times out of 10 it's going to be just as effective for dodging, and it does a whole bunch of other useful stuff. so you're absolutely right, your gunbunny doesn't really want dodge. most likely he wants a melee skill and gymnastics, and it's entirely possible he'll only use gymnastics dodging on rare occasions... but when he does, it will be occasions where not getting hit is essential to his survival. maybe you're dodging a force 12 firebolt cast by a force 12 spirit of man that you can't harm, maybe you'll be dodging the main gun on an MBT, who knows. it really doesn't matter. there are situations where dodging is a better idea, and in those situations you're going to want to have the best dodge pool you can get... heck, even an LMG firing full auto (just takes a white knight with a tripod to negate the recoil entirely) will do enough damage to make it worth your while to not get hit. or, for that matter, full auto from an SMG is gonna be a pretty serious threat. sometimes you just need to avoid getting splatted, and when you do, you want the best chance of not getting splatted possible. it really isn't hard to get a DV of around 15-16. you wanna get hit by that? because i've had plenty of characters that don't want to get hit by that.

again, this is not going to be your default plan. this is for when you decide that not getting hit is the most important thing. like when the other side has capsule rounds loaded with gamma scopolamine and you don't want to get paralysed, or even just plain stick-n-shock and you don't want to be out for a combat turn or 3. there are some times where getting hit is more than just a little bit of damage. heck, several of the above situations aren't even all that improbable.

Oh, same. Right now, my current character(close-combat, has some gun skill), has a modified reaction of 7. Right there he's damned good at ranged-not perfect but that's not even full defense. If he goes full? his Gymnastics of 3 gets added to the Synthacardium of 3, and his raptor cyberlegs give him another +2(they get +2 Gymnastics, including Dodge), for a total of 15 ranged dice. That's enough that, since tie goes to defenders, a character needs to get a damn good hit on him, more than likely-and he has enough armor/body afterward to solidly soak down most hits that might get through, for the fact of most hits getting through probably only have 1 or so net hits. If he were faced with a ''big bang-bang nasty gun'', like a Thunderstruck or the like, I'd be spending Edge on that dodge roll to ensure exploded 6's. Of course, i'd try not to do anything in game to need an opponent with a Thunderstruck coming after me in the first place.

(also, with a running rate of 37 with the legs, after he dodges, god help anyone within a range that he can reach in one pass and still attack. His melee block is even more insane: Reaction+Unarmed Block naturally 7+5, or 12, full is Rea+Unarmed+Gymnastics, or 12+3(skill)+3(synthacardium)+2(legs)=20 dice.

I didn't even twink out these numbers to any particular uber extents or had to sacrifice-these are all skills his concept had to begin with(Unarmed, Gymnastics, the legs.) Gymnastics and Synthacardium are high due to his use of freerunning to scout around, so that was a given. I wanted the legs on him and they ended up giving me +2(I didn't take them FOR +2 to Gymnastics, but it's a nice bonus). A naturally solid Reaction with some Initiative enhancers took them the rest of the way. For a combat-oriented character, it's not a big sacrifice to get that Dodge skill-in fact, he sacrificed nothing(it was pointed out about how a sam-type might have the Athletics Group anyway.)

Now, I agree for a non-combat character, this is an investment that must be made. They probably don't have these skills, and must scrape up some points for the Dodge(Ranged being the usual specialty, since you can add double Dodge to melee anyway on full.) But a 2+2 skill is only 10 Karma/BP, and not too difficult. And still for them, it IS helping. They won't be hitting things anyway, after all, so why not just dodge?

And yeah, in my character's case, Defense IS a good option thanks to his Riposte maneuver. Any solid melee build may likely have this maneuver, and even though it costs and action it can get fights over with. (Coupled with Finishing Blow, in case his first 12P attack doesn't neutralize the opponent.) A Riposte-using character can benefit GREATLY from having a solid defense.

As for firearms? IMO, it's better to dodge and strike back. You dodge first, and then either they eat your attack or use up their next turn to dodge. (Still, using enemies with 2 IP all the time is a bit extreme, IMO since by RAW those are reserved for tougher people, I mean, Red Samurai have 2 IPs-but to each their own world, I always say-not right or wrong, just a bit extreme to me since i tend to use IPs as one of the big ''gauging points'' to how powerful the opposition is-not the only one, but one of the big ones). But say you have 2 and they have 2. They get first and you dodge, and you can answer back your second turn with some bursts toward multiple ones-either they dodge, or they eat the bursts and either die, get knocked out, or be severely injured. Now, you get pass number 3 while they have nothing left. I've BEEN in situations where if I hadn't of had Dodge I would have been screwed, and indeed, one time I didn't take it I ALMOST got screwed. It's not the perfect skill or anything but to say it's the choice of losers is going way too far.

If you have Firefight Martial Arts and MBW, you could do with just a Firearm skill and Dodge.

If you have Move By Wire you're moving so much faster than everyone else you could probably pillow-fight them to death. You know, just hit them really, really hard.

And your pillow might need to be full of cement. My point stands.

In SR4, Move-by-wire is less powerful than it used to be (at low ratings at least). A rating 1 move-by-wire is available at chargen and, while pretty good, it's nothing near what it was in SR3.

I keep mentioning cover, and everyone's still talking about using dodge while standing in the open like a retard. USE DODGE TO GET INTO COVER, THEN RETURN FIRE. IT'S THAT EASY. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL MAKE YOU DIE. But doing so means that dodge is not a losing tactic, it means that it's a vital survival tactic. SR4 combat is about cover, because bullet eating is not possible outside of very limited circumstances. Dodge is the means to obtain cover while being shot at. It is never a means to fight enemies while standing in the open, which is what everyone in this debate seems to be assuming.

As a player I'm not stupid enough to put my character out in the open; I know where the cover is prior to a firefight. And if I do get caught off guard, well, the sniper using his longarms skill to fire a full auto shotgun (yes, shotguns and sniper rifles are the same skill) is generally a better target.

Taking cover is for wimps, I guess.

Grenades are for wimps?

If you get caught off guard then you can't make a roll to avoid being hit anyway. Having a shotgun isn't going to help. Unless you mean you get caught in the open in a firefight... In which case the shotgun only helps if you get to shoot first (the fundamental truism of SR4).

If you do have a lower initiative, and you are in the open, then using dodge to get into cover is handy, but you get a similar effect from gymnastics. Once in cover you ought to be knocking enough dice off your attackers dice pool that you don't need to use full defence. If they can still hit you while you are in cover, you've got a bigger problem than choosing between dodge, gymnastics or long arms skills.

Using Full Defense as a way to get to an important location, be it an escape route or cover has already been mentioned. Beyond that, it's not really worth delving into too deeply. Cover sometimes mean you have the luxury of not having to worry about using extra passes to defend yourself at all. Other times cover combined with Full Defense is your only hope of not being reduced to a meat flecked puddle. It all boils down to judgement calls beyond a certain point, so frankly, I don't think it deserves more than the cursory mention it has already recieved since it really won't do much other than muddy the waters further.

By "off guard" I don't mean "LOLZ! Ur Surprised!" I mean "Oh, the rigger activated a turret that just dropped down from the ceiling, I didn't know THAT was there."

And I never said I had a shotgun, the sniper has a shotgun (and the player has a flaw version of common sense; not just a lack of the positive quality, but an actual invert-common sense flaw (for example, after a run with the cops driving up the street he thought he could make his getaway on foot by walking out of the house he was sniping from--in a trenchcoat with a breifcase-disassembled sniper rifle and in broad daylight--and walk down the street, need I mention this was in Havana, Cuba? I got Karma for telling him to stay put and mooch off the former house residents)). My weapon is a P93.

Under those circumstances, you need to make a Surprise test to act against it at all before it fires - yes, you can see it, but you are still surprised.

And yes, Dodge (or equivalent) is a vital skill in Shadowrun combat, precisely because you can use it as an interrupt, & it gets you to tactical positions alive. It has no other use, it needs no other use.

I've had so many characters in soooo many different games that would not only disagree with this statement, but would laugh themselves into comas upon hearing it.

Did anyone mention how MBW provides bonus dice to dodge, making dodge so much more useful for defensively built cybered chars?

Yes.

Number of times dodge used: 0

Number of boxes of damage taken (over...8 combats? I can count 8, I'm sure I've missed one or two)
Total: 6P 10S
Max (each track): 2P* 4S

*This number may be in question. During the last session I forgot to roll some dice against a grenade, assuming I get 2 successes on 5 dice (w/ exploding 6s) this number won't change.

So this is supposed to tell us... what?

That dodge isn't as vital as some people make it out to be.

Then how about 6 dice of dodge and edge in this case?


I would hardly call this a reference...
I can't keep track anymore of how many real fights my gun bunny has been in, but I can tell you I dodged in most of them...
I suspect these 8 combats you speak of weren't very challenging...
Now in mook combat I also rarely dodge, I mean most mooks couldn't hit me if I stood still...
But once the champions and the named ones appear, I pull out my dodge hat and go look for that superior footing...

No, it rather tells us how horrible you are at presentig data to prove your point. Come on? 8 combats? In the same group with the same GM most likely. Yeah, right. Makes you look silly though.

If I took my last sessions, i could come to a similar conclusion. Roughly the same amount of combats, but i did not roll defense once. I was not even shot at.

(I'm a little sad you edit your statistics out, was way funnier that way scratch that, my browser is fucked up, or something)
Combats: 8
Number of Dodge used: 0
Damage taken: 1S (Fading)

Conclusion: Armor is useless, because I did not use it to prevent damage. Hurray, I'm extra special, look at me, praise me for my revelation to you ignorant masses!

Or something like that. You should get my point, but I highly doubt that.

Same 8 combat have incapacitated 4 different characters (on one occasion someone decided to charge into melee because he had regeneration). One fight involved a Force 8 water spirit.



Hmm? I didn't edit out statistics.

So the question is, since dodge is so useless, how come I can't hurt one of my player's characters (who btw, routinely does most of the violence in our group) without using magic or explosives?

Yeah, just noticed, ignore that. Stupid technology not doing what I scream at it to do.

You realize yours isn't the only table in the world, right? I mean, I've hit players with 20P before. I mean, I guess you can try stopping the van with your heavy pistol before you get run over, but I would advise having a backup plan.

Dodge and Gymanstics aren't useful that often, but when you need them, it's usually for something important, like not getting eviscerated by a piasma.

I can't say. I know nothing of the circumstances.



I'll let you know the next first time our GM tries to run us over with a car.

I just read through this whole thread. I feel for you, Larme.

At least it shows how different people view combat in SR. This can be it's own merit, I guess.

It's true-hell, not only combat, but other parts of the game, too. I mean, I can think of several games-played in my same group-where some skills ended up much more valued or useful than others.

For example, our first game? Social skills were like-not used. Ever. I mean, the GM was sort of introducing us to the game though. A few other games after that were similar.

Then, finally, my friend, who had decided to take a Negotation of 2(this was a few years back), managed to get such a spectacular roll of exploding 6's(SR2-3 era), that he managed to talk a guy out of not only a robbery, but got the guy to return his money and unload his gun in front of him. My friend's rather amusing quote: ''Ahh, Social skills...THAT's what they're there for!'' After that, we've always tried to give our folks at least 2 different social skills. He loved them after that.

In another game, skills like...Palming or Escape Artist might end up coming into play somehow, and several times. Maybe they aren't required, but plans/etc that the PCs come up with/random situations require them/make life easier.

In this situation, it seems that he's been able to live, somehow, without using Dodge. Myself? I had a couple bad situations(they could have been VERY bad but a little bit of good rolling on my part turned them into near-misses) that could have been MUCH less stressful had I had a Dodge skill of some kind(dodge or gymnastics.) So I don't miss out on it.

The thing about Dodge, much like Larme said, is that it's mainly a stopgap for either A.) avoiding BIG hurt, or B.) getting to cover so you don't NEED to be on full defense anymore.

Also, when you go on full defense, you're considered being on full defense until your NEXT action comes up, so if you have 3 IPs, dodging isn't a bad option at all. You shoot first, then dodge incoming fire (if it comes up) - this eats up IP 2. You continue to dodge on full defense until IP 3, where you have another action waiting.

Dodge is really a vital concept on characters without macho armor/body dicepools, but even those that do have those uber pools can be helped by it.

What's necassary?

Only you can know.

Dodge can be useful. The ways are explained in this thread.

Is is useful to me? Depends on the character I make. I could even make a character for which Dodge would be very useful, but is missing. It might be fun to see this weakness appear in play. Will it appear in play? Depends on the game and GM.

Dodge, like any other skill in the game is as useful and necassary as you make it. There's nothing intrinsically necassary about it.

Your game, your choice.

As a GM, when I review and accept characters for a game I cover a minimum of two things with the players regarding skills. For skills the PC have, I make note to try and ensure they get to use them at some point in the game. They chose the skills for a reason. For skills that are missing, or not chosen, I check that it wasn't something simply missed out, and sometime during the game, if appropriate I can present a challenge where the missing skill comes into play. Some of the most fun for a player is when they can overcome a tough challenge through luck or improvisation or smarts.

Dodge, need it or not, you can only decide for yourself.

Look, it really doesn't matter how it works in your particular game. With your particular setup, with the particular opposition you've faced, you haven't needed dodge. But that is anectodal, and absolutely cannot support the argument that dodge is everywhere and always a bad choice. You're right that it's better when you don't need to dodge. But if you need to, you should do it. It is not automatic lose if your only choices are between "dodge" and "die."

If you're already behind cover, Dodge isn't much of a necessity.

If you're not behind cover, dodge isn't going to help you much, outside of a dedicated dodging build.

Speaking for the gun-bunnies, your strategy should be to spend actions taking them out, not dodging. Rely on a high reaction to handle the incidential shots, and your high weapon skills to take them down before they can shoot you.

Dodge in its way is a little like spellcasting, IMO. It is almost an all or nothing skill. Either you get the benefits of not being hit at all or take whatever damage coming your way. Unlike Spellcasting, however, Dodge is not an offensive skill, you use it in reaction to someone else's actions.

Personally, as a GM, I have seen a Dodge monkey Matrix through a hail of bullets I sent her way. So anedoctally, I do not think that Dodge is a bad skill to have. It has its place, just that you need to know when and how to use it.

After watching some motocross I'm not against gymnastic dodges on a bike.

I do not think the argument is that it could never be useful. Just that it is not useful enough in the narrow range of circumstances that you would want to use it for it to be a great choice of Karma or BP expenditure.

I'm currently playing a 1 IP mage, I'm going to say its a pretty freakin rare circumstance where I want to give up my only action in the round to dodge.

Even if it means that you get those dice all the way through pass 4 (of course, at a -1 every time you get shot).

Anyway, I will agree that it's not "never" useful, OTOH I don't think it's always useful either. The amount of Karma/BP necessary generally isn't worth it, especially if you're already buying the Athletics skill group (yay Gym!). Maybe 1 rank and a specialization (prolly melee, because if you get into melee you'll love the extra 3 dice).

That's the only reason my character even has dodge: when he gets into melee (which won't happen until I have my magic armor of transforming goodness) I can get up in people's faces (as a gorram dragon) and be untouchable. Most characters don't have an unarmed skill, which means I'm already dice ahead of them on both the offense and the defense.

Heck no it still isn't worth it. I'd take less overall damage by throwing a stun ball and dropping some opposition and wounding others. I'd rather them be dead and not shooting at me than alive and shooting at me with dodge or at -4 dice cause I dodged into cover. Getting rid of just one guy shooting at you is better than +4dice to dodge in most cases. I don't have to roll to dodge if they are dead.

Is it sometimes useful, sure. Just not often enough where I'm dumping huge amounts of points into it. Now I may end up taking Gymnastics because it has the byproduct of allowing you to pull off cool stunts, and hey I can dodge in rare circumstances as a bonus.

Of course it varies between situations, but for the vast majority of encounters against more than 2 or 3 enemies, going on Full Defense & moving to cover is by far the better option than dropping one of them.

Barring extreme Reaction or passive defense builds, the only time I can think of is if you are certain the rest of your team can drop the remaining foes before they can shoot you, or that they have a more pressing target to fire at (in which case you wouldn't be on Full Defense anyways, because it is an interrupt).