It's true that many of the sample characters are built oddly, and aren't as effective as they could otherwise be, but I don't know of any that actually break the rules (post-errata). In response to a previous post referring to the Troll Bounty Hunter, Ultrasound Sensors have a capacity rating and are allowed to be placed in "cyberlimbs." Presumably cybereyes are included in the term "cyberlimb" as any replacement of a body part by cyberware. Again, not something explicitly stated (as far as I'm aware), but a reasonable interpretation and one supported by this particular sample character.

So, while the characters may not be useful for modeling an "efficient character build" off of, they're certainly useful for interpreting the character creation process and rules.

The pregenerated characters are no more useful than the guided examples presented. The pregens present the finished product rather than the process or the rules.

That's true. They are no more useful than the examples designed to aid you in interpreting statements that could be reasonably interpreted in a way the authors did not intend. They are also simply a view at what a finished product of the process is. Which is only useful for determining that a process that produces an inconsistent outcome is not correct. Luckily the examples given are set up in a way that you can examine parts of the whole and determine if your interpretation of parts of the rule are consistent with the example. In this case your interpretation is not consistent, but reasonable.

So, while your statement is correct, I fail to see why they are not useful for the purposes given.

I don't see how gymnastics is so useful for dodging, anyway. In the first place, If you're going to dodge, be practiced in it - don't learn gymnastics, and hope to put it to use in combat. Second, gymnastics is based on large body movements - using momentum - and therefore somewhat predictable. It's difficult to change direction in the middle of a somersault or cartwheel. Doing a backflip doesn't really move you very far, but it might make the difference between getting hit in the chest and in the legs. Also, the BBB implies that gymnastics can be used for dodging only in full defense - it takes too much effort to do it while trying to attack an opponent.

You should be able to use gymnastics for melee dodging if you take the "Capoeirista" quality

I think this would be represented by using the "blocking" option for melee defense and using your Unarmed Combat skill as your defensive skill. While it is described as "blocking" the defensive techniques of many martial arts, as you pointed out, involve more than just physically blocking an attack.

As to the other poster's comment of:


I'm not sure the discussion is about the personal perspective of what gymnastics is and isn't. While I may or may not agree that "gymnastics" doesn't help with dodging a bullet, the rules aren't meant to be a perfect simulation of reality. They "make sense" from some perspectives and not others, but they are meant to give structure to a story and a game. If you think your game doesn't feel right because people can backflip and cartwheel to avoid being shot that's perfectly understandable, but it "makes sense" insofar as the authors believe that it fits their setting.

As to the usefulness of Dodge over Gymnastics, if you don't picture your character prancing around like a fairy to avoid being shot, go with Dodge. Colorful descriptions aside, the mechanical benefits of one or the other have been established so if they aren't persuasive it's down to aesthetic choices and how you picture gymnastics/dodge and which you'd prefer your character to use.

That's heresy. All those NinjaMovies have taught us that you need only a few backflips and no bullet can hit you while you're doing it!!

Don't get me wrong, if I'm writing a story about Ninjas and Pirates then backflips will not only help you avoid bullets, but they would even be the preferred method. At least by all the cool characters.

Dude ... everyone is entitled to there own play styles. But if your a straight lighting razor and not a tank. Dodging then applying some modifiers to your targets... aka blasting holes and leaving em smoking... the use of full dodge will leave you unharmed with one maybee to passes left to kill em all. Now I play with a tank that walks threw burst fire she doesn't need dodge except for when heavy weapons come out. I am a straight up bolt of lighting... but cant take rounds worth a damn. So dodging for the first volley of fire always raises my body count.

At our table tonite, I am running Kilo, my Merc/sammi. We are in bug city on Biz and end up in a really bad way with Kilo driving a junky bus with a bunch of bugs in the back and a corrupted wendigo. Wendigo attempts to take him out for dinner. Luckily, his armor takes the damage from the vicious bite, as Kilo has no dodge. really could have used a couple of more dice in that situation. Had just spent last of 6 Edge in prior initiative pass.

however, I now have a prefered method of dispatching Wendigo.

Step 1-shoot wendigo with panther cannon
Step 2-run over wendigo with bus
Step3-run over wendigo with bus again
Step 4- toss WP grenade on top of wendigo which has been reduced to a pile of roadkill
Step 5- light a cigar and say" I love it when a plan comes together"

Dodge, like many skills may not be the most "cost effective" or even normally useful skills, but when you need them its nice to have them on the character sheet.

Personally, I don't allow gymnastic dodge unless you have room to move. behind the wheel of a bus with a 11 foot tall wendigo sitting on you makes if very hard to whip out the "Gymkata" IMHO.

So, in that scenario, kanislatrans, how would you envision a character dodging instead of gymnasticing?

Instinctively analyzing and pre-empting the actions of the wendigo. If it takes a bit at you, you might be able the throw the targeted area of your body out of harms way.

Personally, the difference I see between Dodge and Gymnstics Dodge is that sure, perhaps if some-one is firing at you or trying to attack you in another way, all those flipping and tumbling techniques you learnt through intensive training unrelated to combat, might just make you a harder target. Dodge is an intensively trained skill that involves moving out of harms way by being able to predict and avoid coming into harms way.

The gymnast sees a guy pull a gun and does a few flips to make himself an erratic target on his way across the room. The dodger sees the guy draw, click the safety, and bring the gun up to fire, and because the dodger has trained for this situation, he's better equipped to throw himself down at just the right moment and avoid the path of a bullet, and then maybe slide towards some cover. The difference is that dodge is generally a reactive action, while gymnastics dodge is a preventative action.

Personally I think it's reasonable to only allow gymnastics dodge to characters who are moving at speed.

Sir-Psycho pretty much summed up what I intended to say.

I see Dodge as training your "oh,drek that is gonna hurt"" reaction to put you out of harms way.

How I envision this happening in the situation would be Kilo swiveling in the seat and pulling back to get away from the gnashing, carrion -breathed slitch trying to tear his face off. On a side note, I have enough karma saved to bump my my heavy weapons a points and 6 poinst left over. I think I know where they are going.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have two questions that come to mind.

Why not consider applying situational modifiers on dodging, especially gym dodging in confined places, or gym dodging while not at least going at running speed?

Also, wouldn't an advantage of dodge be the ability to take a specialization, thus reaching a higher dice pool in some situations than a gym dodge would grant you? (gym is however really easy to boost with synthacardium on sammies, and I would never a gym spec. to apply to a dodge...)

Because then, X times out of Y, you'd get at least one player go "Nuh-uh, unless you show me a direct quotation from at least two different rulebooks, preferably signed by not less than half a dozen developers, I will continue throwing epic hissyfits until either I, you or the whole game chokes to death on this goddam player-vs-GM mindset instead of, you know, playing this co-operative game TOGETHER!"

That is, if 7 pages of the nth reiteration of this thread are anything to go by.

/rant.

PS: I don't want in any way impede on your discussion, folks, it's just that sometimes, I imagine stuff like that going on at an actual gaming table, and then my tin fluffy heart goes berserk.

That's an interesting idea, i might consider implementing it.

Some argue that the RAW gymnastics (tumbling) specialisation could be a dodge related specialisation. Not my personal opinion, though.

I was feeling bad, the wendigo in question that tried to bite Kilo had just put down the "wall of troll" that was with him and decided to just take a little taste of kilo as he seemed to be intent on stealing her bus.

I used dodge as the ability to make yourself a difficult target. I use gymnastics as the ability to remove yourself from a targeted area. Only allowing gymnastics dodge when you have the ability to move at least one "square" and dodge at all times. So yes you can live without dodge (unless you belong to the can't dodge while rigging without it camp) but it certainly helps when your confined.

And for the record you missed a step
Step-.5 Slam on brakes tossing the Wendigo through the windshield.

um,we weren't stealing the bus, simply borrowing it to catch up with the roach spirits. I intended to compensate her for the inconvenience once we had attained our goal. Honest.

That's an incorrect assumption: cybereye capacity is not the same as cyberlimb capacity which is not the same as drone/vehicle capacity.

Unless of course, you think a multi-shot grenade launcher (capacity 15) should be able to fit into someone's eye or ear (capacity 16.)

I wish they'd worded the rules on capacity more clearly.

I must be missing something here. Why would you use Gymnastics to dodge in melee?

The perceived 'wisdom' above seems to be that Dodge is better unless you actually have some sort of melee skill. So why the heck wouldn't you block? I mean, seriously, you are either skilled in melee or you're not. Resources devoted to Gymnastics could have been spent on a better Melee skill.

To be worth bothering with you're Gymnastics skill would have to exceed your Melee skill. Which isn't easy and the same resources could probably have driven your melee skill at least as high. Or your Reaction stat.

Well, blades 7 doesn't do you a bit of good if you're wielding an assault rifle.

But what do I know? I'm on the "dodge is useful" side of the argument.

Or you could, you know, just by the skill group for the Run and such...
Free dodge that works sometimes most of the time? Sign me up.

Yeah....

You still wouldn't use it in melee if you actually had a melee skill.

If you aren't buying the skill group then you have to choose between Gymnastics and Dodge. I vote for the one with the fewest opportunities for the GM or circumstances to screw you over.

And I is definitely taking one or the other. There will always be situations where it is dodge or die. I'll go with dodge every time.