Use of Dodge, Well, is it really a necessary skill? Options

[Cain]

Thank you, yes. Gymnastics is easier and cheaper to get a hold of than dodge, and it does all the same things plus a lot more. Dodge is basically useless outside of a few corner cases that require a gimped character.

I'll also add that while this one blows a few gaskets, it's technically legal to take a specialization in Dodging for Gymnastics. A bit munchy, I'll grant you, but it's allowable.

[Malicant]

While you can cartwheel, your car cannot. No. Gymnastic does not more than Dodge. Also, it doesn't block fists or parry swords.

[toturi]

Thank you, yes. Gymnastics is easier and cheaper to get a hold of than dodge, and it does all the same things plus a lot more. Dodge is basically useless outside of a few corner cases that require a gimped character.

I'll also add that while this one blows a few gaskets, it's technically legal to take a specialization in Dodging for Gymnastics. A bit munchy, I'll grant you, but it's allowable.

I do not see a Dodging specialisation for Gymnastics.

[InfinityzeN]

There isn't one. And most GMs will tear up your character as a muchkin for even asking.

While you can cartwheel, your car cannot. No. Gymnastic does not more than Dodge. Also, it doesn't block fists or parry swords.

And that is why Riggers take it. It is also the GMs call if you have room to use Gymnastics dodge.

[ElFenrir]

But one can use Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics Dodge in full defense in melee(in response to blocking/parrying.) In RAW, it seems to be a way to use it(saying you can add Gymnastics Dice to defense). It's either Melee Skill + Reaction + Gymnastics or Dodge for full, or Rea/Melee skill or Rea/Dodge(regular.)

What it comes down to is that more active characters stick with the Gymnastics, since unless you're using Karmagen, points are tight as it is, and as a GM I don't want to force people to squeeze them even more out. I'd rather them take that Negotiation(Bargain) 2(+2) skill that they really wanted than to have to take a Dodge(Whatever) skill instead. If they *want* both(say a go-ganger who fights both on foot and his motorcycle, using the Gymnastics of his Athletics Group on foot and Dodge while he's on his bike), then of course, go for it, but I would never force them to take both by screwing someone who took Gymnastics over it. Yes, there might indeed be some situations where Gymnastics is a bit rough to use, and I'll make sure they know it beforehand, but I won't go out of my way to stick them in just to screw over the Gymnastics dodgers.

[Malicant]

But one can use Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics Dodge in full defense in melee(in response to blocking/parrying.)

Sure, never questioned that. But you can use Reaction+Dodge without going on full defense, which Gymnastics cannot be used for. That was my point, which "surprisingly" was missed.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's nice, but as you put it, that's not RAW. By canon, gymnastics is just as reliable as dodge, and does more to boot.

Actually, it is. The additional described movements are more extensive for Gymnastic Dodge than they are for general Full Defense, so the GM is free to add additional situational modifiers.

[Cain]

I do not see a Dodging specialisation for Gymnastics.

The listed specializations are not the only allowable ones. To top that off, if you want to be munchier, you can just take "Tumbling" as a spec, which essentially does the same thing, only more.

so the GM is free to add additional situational modifiers.

Sorry, can you point me to a chart that lists situational modifiers for gymnastics dodge?

[ElFenrir]

Sure, never questioned that. But you can use Reaction+Dodge without going on full defense, which Gymnastics cannot be used for. That was my point, which "surprisingly" was missed.

Oh, it's a good point-but again, this leads to people who have melee skills, and people who don't. If you do NOT have a melee skill-oh yeah, Dodge is the way to go. People with a melee skill can replace the Dodge with a Block or Parry, as most folks know, instead, on regular defense.

But you're correct-Gymnastics is only good on Full defense, and is best utilized with someone who already has a Melee skill.

[Malicant]

Sorry, can you point me to a chart that lists situational modifiers for gymnastics dodge?

Only after you quote the passage from the BBB that allows tumbling spec to be used for Gymnastics Dodge.

[Draco18s]

Only after you quote the passage from the BBB that allows tumbling spec to be used for Gymnastics Dodge.

So in other words, you don't have one, and you're going to be an ass about it.

Got it.

[Stahlseele]

Use of Dodge?
Open Door, Get In, Start Engine, Drive into Obstacle
Dodge used up

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

The listed specializations are not the only allowable ones. To top that off, if you want to be munchier, you can just take "Tumbling" as a spec, which essentially does the same thing, only more.


Sorry, can you point me to a chart that lists situational modifiers for gymnastics dodge?

That's an interesting take...you seem to be saying that:


1) the GM can add whatever he wants.

and

2) the GM shouldn't add anything that isn't in the book.

[Dunsany]

Sorry, can you point me to a chart that lists situational modifiers for gymnastics dodge?

Presumably they are referring to:

For many of these situations, gamemasters must rely on their own judgment to decide which skills are needed, determine the situation modifiers, and interpret what it all means. The following guidelines and rules will help resolve some more common situations.

I can think of more situations where a problem might arise with use of gymnastic style "dodging" than a non-gymnastic style. But this is my own personal judgment and I'd err on the side of not giving situational modifiers for dodging except in extreme cases where it would most likely apply to both types of avoidance. But as you can see the book allows situational modifiers in the GMs discretion and some GMs might reasonably feel that there are limits on "flipping, rolling, cartwheeling., etc." where there would not be the same modifiers for dodging in a more traditional manner.

Only after you quote the passage from the BBB that allows tumbling spec to be used for Gymnastics Dodge.

Perhaps this would help:

Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

I assume by "etc" that they mean any form of gymnastics that might aid in avoiding being hit. Tumbling, a skill associated (and thereby a specialization) of gymnastics, could be used to avoid being hit by something (or taking less damage from being hit akin to "blocking" or "parrying"). It certainly doesn't seem to be something explicitly *not* allowed and I see no reason why you wouldn't let someone to "tumble" to avoid damage given this rule.

[Draco18s]

You can't, however, specialize a skill in a skill group that has been purchased as a group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dunsany]

I do not see a Dodging specialisation for Gymnastics.

While the book never explicitly states that the specializations given are only examples and not meant to be all inclusive, it could easily be implied. To support this implication you can reference the "Technomancer" sample character who has a specialization in "light pistols", which is not an option in the Skill section under Pistols. Either interpretation has its strengths and depending on your game either would be a perfectly acceptable ruling.

[Draco18s]

While the book never explicitly states that the specializations given are only examples and not meant to be all inclusive, it could easily be implied. To support this implication you can reference the "Technomancer" sample character who has a specialization in "light pistols", which is not an option in the Skill section under Pistols. Either interpretation has its strengths and depending on your game either would be a perfectly acceptable ruling.

Technically I think "light pistols" is to broad by the way I understand gun specialties, but I've never looked too closely. Not like my characters are going to be switching weapons in the same weapon class very much (I buy a gun at chargen, I expect to have this gun forever).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

To support this implication you can reference the "Technomancer" sample character [...]

The sample characters did and do contain various errors, so the shouldn't really be used as a reference.

[Dunsany]

Technically I think "light pistols" is to broad by the way I understand gun specialties, but I've never looked too closely. Not like my characters are going to be switching weapons in the same weapon class very much (I buy a gun at chargen, I expect to have this gun forever).

The Pistol specializations listed are: Hold-Outs, Revolvers, Semi-Automatics, Tasers
As an example of another Firearm skill specialization list, those listed for Longarms are: Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, Sporting Rifles

"Light Pistols" seem perfectly in line with both of these lists if you allow specializations not specifically listed in the book. But this discussion is straying a bit off-topic from the original "dodge vs. gymnastics" issue so it'd be better to continue in another thread if necessary.

[Draco18s]

The Pistol specializations listed are: Hold-Outs, Revolvers, Semi-Automatics, Tasers
As an example of another Firearm skill specialization list, those listed for Longarms are: Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, Sporting Rifles

"Light Pistols" seem perfectly in line with both of these lists if you allow specializations not specifically listed in the book. But this discussion is straying a bit off-topic from the original "dodge vs. gymnastics" issue so it'd be better to continue in another thread if necessary.

I stand corrected.

[Dunsany]

The sample characters did and do contain various errors, so the shouldn't really be used as a reference.

I'm sorry, but this stance, in light of extensive errata on the sample characters in question, is simply ridiculous. What, exactly, are sample characters used for then, if not as references and examples of character creation?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I'm sorry, but this stance, in light of extensive errata on the sample characters in question, is simply ridiculous. What, exactly, are sample characters used for then, if not as references and examples of character creation?

Amusement?

The Troll Bounty Hunter still has Ultrasound as a cybereye upgrade while it's headware, the street samurai lacks the perception skill and the smuggler any kind of stealth skills - those are used for vehicles, too.

[Cain]

I'm sorry, but this stance, in light of extensive errata on the sample characters in question, is simply ridiculous. What, exactly, are sample characters used for then, if not as references and examples of character creation?

Originally? How to do things wrong.

Many of the sample archetypes, as originally written, simply aren't very good at what they do. There's a sample character archive we put together that made the archetypes much better. For example, a disgusting number of the sample characters have "Uncouth", when multiple Incompetences in social skills would achieve the same thing for less cost and more BP gain.

However, in this case, you are right. I don't recall seeing an errata fixing the "Light pistol" specialization, so it stands that you can have specs outside of the listed ones.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I don't recall seeing an errata fixing the "Light pistol" specialization, so it stands that you can have specs outside of the listed ones.

True, but trivial: You can even have skills not listed anywhere in the books - as a house-rule.

[toturi]

Originally? How to do things wrong.

Many of the sample archetypes, as originally written, simply aren't very good at what they do. There's a sample character archive we put together that made the archetypes much better. For example, a disgusting number of the sample characters have "Uncouth", when multiple Incompetences in social skills would achieve the same thing for less cost and more BP gain.

However, in this case, you are right. I don't recall seeing an errata fixing the "Light pistol" specialization, so it stands that you can have specs outside of the listed ones.

No, it stands that you can use that particular specialisation if you choose to use that pregenerated PC. For whatever reason, the writers seemed to have deemed that in the case of the technomancer, Light Pistols is a legitimate specialisation and have printed it; hence for the technomancer pregen character, that specialisation is RAW.