Use of Dodge, Well, is it really a necessary skill? Options

[Speed Wraith]

Did anyone mention how MBW provides bonus dice to dodge, making dodge so much more useful for defensively built cybered chars? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Yes.

[Draco18s]

And yes, Dodge (or equivalent) is a vital skill in Shadowrun combat, precisely because you can use it as an interrupt, & it gets you to tactical positions alive. It has no other use, it needs no other use.

Number of times dodge used: 0

Number of boxes of damage taken (over...8 combats? I can count 8, I'm sure I've missed one or two)
Total: 6P 10S
Max (each track): 2P* 4S

*This number may be in question. During the last session I forgot to roll some dice against a grenade, assuming I get 2 successes on 5 dice (w/ exploding 6s) this number won't change.

[Malicant]

So this is supposed to tell us... what?

[Draco18s]

That dodge isn't as vital as some people make it out to be.

[ArkonC]

If 3 dice is going to do that for me, then I'll edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The likely hood that Dodge makes a difference is really small.

Then how about 6 dice of dodge and edge in this case?

Number of times dodge used: 0

Number of boxes of damage taken (over...8 combats? I can count 8, I'm sure I've missed one or two)
Total: 6P 10S
Max (each track): 2P* 4S

*This number may be in question. During the last session I forgot to roll some dice against a grenade, assuming I get 2 successes on 5 dice (w/ exploding 6s) this number won't change.

I would hardly call this a reference...
I can't keep track anymore of how many real fights my gun bunny has been in, but I can tell you I dodged in most of them...
I suspect these 8 combats you speak of weren't very challenging...
Now in mook combat I also rarely dodge, I mean most mooks couldn't hit me if I stood still...
But once the champions and the named ones appear, I pull out my dodge hat and go look for that superior footing...

[Malicant]

No, it rather tells us how horrible you are at presentig data to prove your point. Come on? 8 combats? In the same group with the same GM most likely. Yeah, right. Makes you look silly though.

If I took my last sessions, i could come to a similar conclusion. Roughly the same amount of combats, but i did not roll defense once. I was not even shot at.

(I'm a little sad you edit your statistics out, was way funnier that way scratch that, my browser is fucked up, or something)
Combats: 8
Number of Dodge used: 0
Damage taken: 1S (Fading)

Conclusion: Armor is useless, because I did not use it to prevent damage. Hurray, I'm extra special, look at me, praise me for my revelation to you ignorant masses!

Or something like that. You should get my point, but I highly doubt that.

[Draco18s]

No, it rather tells us how horrible you are at presentig data to prove your point. Come on? 8 combats? In the same group with the same GM most likely. Yeah, right. Makes you look silly though.

Same 8 combat have incapacitated 4 different characters (on one occasion someone decided to charge into melee because he had regeneration). One fight involved a Force 8 water spirit.

(I'm a little sad you edit your statistics out, was way funnier that way)

Hmm? I didn't edit out statistics.

[Speed Wraith]

So the question is, since dodge is so useless, how come I can't hurt one of my player's characters (who btw, routinely does most of the violence in our group) without using magic or explosives? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malicant]

Hmm? I didn't edit out statistics.

Yeah, just noticed, ignore that. Stupid technology not doing what I scream at it to do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[Whipstitch]

You realize yours isn't the only table in the world, right? I mean, I've hit players with 20P before. I mean, I guess you can try stopping the van with your heavy pistol before you get run over, but I would advise having a backup plan.

Dodge and Gymanstics aren't useful that often, but when you need them, it's usually for something important, like not getting eviscerated by a piasma.

[Draco18s]

So the question is, since dodge is so useless, how come I can't hurt one of my player's characters (who btw, routinely does most of the violence in our group) without using magic or explosives? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I can't say. I know nothing of the circumstances.

You realize yours isn't the only table in the world, right? I mean, I've hit players with 20P before. I mean, I guess you can try stopping the van with your heavy pistol before you get run over, but I would advise having a backup plan.

I'll let you know the next first time our GM tries to run us over with a car.

[pbangarth]

I just read through this whole thread. I feel for you, Larme.

[Malicant]

At least it shows how different people view combat in SR. This can be it's own merit, I guess.

[ElFenrir]

It's true-hell, not only combat, but other parts of the game, too. I mean, I can think of several games-played in my same group-where some skills ended up much more valued or useful than others.

For example, our first game? Social skills were like-not used. Ever. I mean, the GM was sort of introducing us to the game though. A few other games after that were similar.

Then, finally, my friend, who had decided to take a Negotation of 2(this was a few years back), managed to get such a spectacular roll of exploding 6's(SR2-3 era), that he managed to talk a guy out of not only a robbery, but got the guy to return his money and unload his gun in front of him. My friend's rather amusing quote: ''Ahh, Social skills...THAT's what they're there for!'' After that, we've always tried to give our folks at least 2 different social skills. He loved them after that.

In another game, skills like...Palming or Escape Artist might end up coming into play somehow, and several times. Maybe they aren't required, but plans/etc that the PCs come up with/random situations require them/make life easier.

In this situation, it seems that he's been able to live, somehow, without using Dodge. Myself? I had a couple bad situations(they could have been VERY bad but a little bit of good rolling on my part turned them into near-misses) that could have been MUCH less stressful had I had a Dodge skill of some kind(dodge or gymnastics.) So I don't miss out on it.

[Kev]

The thing about Dodge, much like Larme said, is that it's mainly a stopgap for either A.) avoiding BIG hurt, or B.) getting to cover so you don't NEED to be on full defense anymore.

Also, when you go on full defense, you're considered being on full defense until your NEXT action comes up, so if you have 3 IPs, dodging isn't a bad option at all. You shoot first, then dodge incoming fire (if it comes up) - this eats up IP 2. You continue to dodge on full defense until IP 3, where you have another action waiting.

Dodge is really a vital concept on characters without macho armor/body dicepools, but even those that do have those uber pools can be helped by it.

[DireRadiant]

What's necassary?

Only you can know.

Dodge can be useful. The ways are explained in this thread.

Is is useful to me? Depends on the character I make. I could even make a character for which Dodge would be very useful, but is missing. It might be fun to see this weakness appear in play. Will it appear in play? Depends on the game and GM.

Dodge, like any other skill in the game is as useful and necassary as you make it. There's nothing intrinsically necassary about it.

Your game, your choice.

As a GM, when I review and accept characters for a game I cover a minimum of two things with the players regarding skills. For skills the PC have, I make note to try and ensure they get to use them at some point in the game. They chose the skills for a reason. For skills that are missing, or not chosen, I check that it wasn't something simply missed out, and sometime during the game, if appropriate I can present a challenge where the missing skill comes into play. Some of the most fun for a player is when they can overcome a tough challenge through luck or improvisation or smarts.

Dodge, need it or not, you can only decide for yourself.

[Larme]

Number of times dodge used: 0

Number of boxes of damage taken (over...8 combats? I can count 8, I'm sure I've missed one or two)
Total: 6P 10S
Max (each track): 2P* 4S

*This number may be in question. During the last session I forgot to roll some dice against a grenade, assuming I get 2 successes on 5 dice (w/ exploding 6s) this number won't change.

Look, it really doesn't matter how it works in your particular game. With your particular setup, with the particular opposition you've faced, you haven't needed dodge. But that is anectodal, and absolutely cannot support the argument that dodge is everywhere and always a bad choice. You're right that it's better when you don't need to dodge. But if you need to, you should do it. It is not automatic lose if your only choices are between "dodge" and "die."

[Cain]

If you're already behind cover, Dodge isn't much of a necessity.

If you're not behind cover, dodge isn't going to help you much, outside of a dedicated dodging build.

Speaking for the gun-bunnies, your strategy should be to spend actions taking them out, not dodging. Rely on a high reaction to handle the incidential shots, and your high weapon skills to take them down before they can shoot you.

[toturi]

Dodge in its way is a little like spellcasting, IMO. It is almost an all or nothing skill. Either you get the benefits of not being hit at all or take whatever damage coming your way. Unlike Spellcasting, however, Dodge is not an offensive skill, you use it in reaction to someone else's actions.

Personally, as a GM, I have seen a Dodge monkey Matrix through a hail of bullets I sent her way. So anedoctally, I do not think that Dodge is a bad skill to have. It has its place, just that you need to know when and how to use it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Nuh uh! I did a cartwheel on a motorcycle on my way to school the other day, just for laughs >_>

After watching some motocross I'm not against gymnastic dodges on a bike.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Look, it really doesn't matter how it works in your particular game. With your particular setup, with the particular opposition you've faced, you haven't needed dodge. But that is anectodal, and absolutely cannot support the argument that dodge is everywhere and always a bad choice. You're right that it's better when you don't need to dodge. But if you need to, you should do it. It is not automatic lose if your only choices are between "dodge" and "die."

I do not think the argument is that it could never be useful. Just that it is not useful enough in the narrow range of circumstances that you would want to use it for it to be a great choice of Karma or BP expenditure.

I'm currently playing a 1 IP mage, I'm going to say its a pretty freakin rare circumstance where I want to give up my only action in the round to dodge.

[Draco18s]

I'm currently playing a 1 IP mage, I'm going to say its a pretty freakin rare circumstance where I want to give up my only action in the round to dodge.

Even if it means that you get those dice all the way through pass 4 (of course, at a -1 every time you get shot).

Anyway, I will agree that it's not "never" useful, OTOH I don't think it's always useful either. The amount of Karma/BP necessary generally isn't worth it, especially if you're already buying the Athletics skill group (yay Gym!). Maybe 1 rank and a specialization (prolly melee, because if you get into melee you'll love the extra 3 dice).

That's the only reason my character even has dodge: when he gets into melee (which won't happen until I have my magic armor of transforming goodness) I can get up in people's faces (as a gorram dragon) and be untouchable. Most characters don't have an unarmed skill, which means I'm already dice ahead of them on both the offense and the defense.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Even if it means that you get those dice all the way through pass 4 (of course, at a -1 every time you get shot).

Heck no it still isn't worth it. I'd take less overall damage by throwing a stun ball and dropping some opposition and wounding others. I'd rather them be dead and not shooting at me than alive and shooting at me with dodge or at -4 dice cause I dodged into cover. Getting rid of just one guy shooting at you is better than +4dice to dodge in most cases. I don't have to roll to dodge if they are dead.

Is it sometimes useful, sure. Just not often enough where I'm dumping huge amounts of points into it. Now I may end up taking Gymnastics because it has the byproduct of allowing you to pull off cool stunts, and hey I can dodge in rare circumstances as a bonus.

[Muspellsheimr]

Getting rid of just one guy shooting at you is better than +4dice to dodge in most cases.

Of course it varies between situations, but for the vast majority of encounters against more than 2 or 3 enemies, going on Full Defense & moving to cover is by far the better option than dropping one of them.

Barring extreme Reaction or passive defense builds, the only time I can think of is if you are certain the rest of your team can drop the remaining foes before they can shoot you, or that they have a more pressing target to fire at (in which case you wouldn't be on Full Defense anyways, because it is an interrupt).