IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Having fun with Simsense, One question and a couple ideas.
Degausser
post Mar 11 2009, 06:12 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 380
Joined: 19-May 07
Member No.: 11,698



Okay, so I am confused. In the 2nd printing of 4th ed. there is a piece of Cyberware called 'Sim Modual' that costs 5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and it says it allows BTL/Hot sim. Okay, I can deal with that, but on the other hand, the page it referances says that all you need to experience BTL/Hotsim is a datajack and a hotsim Comlink. And the sample hacker doesn't have that particular piece of cyber (though he does have an implanted comlink.)

If I wanted to play a hacker who has an EXTERNAL commlink (because I don't want to have to have cybersurgery every time I want to tinker with my commlink) what do I need to run in Hotsim mode?


Question aside, I thought of some interesting applications for SimSense.


1) Now that there are emotional and external Simrigs, I would think it would be super nifty to slap one on a mage and have him fire off a few spells. It wouldn't interfere with his essence, and that way normal 'Mundanes' could feel what it would be like to be a mage. Of course, it wouldn't work with anything astral, but you could feel the motions, emotions, and feelings from firing off a spell. Pretty cool for a mundane who will never be able to do it first hand. ALSO, it would be a great teaching aid for a mage of the same tradition who was trying to learn that particular spell. (Sure, you'd still need the spell formula, but you could see how the spell is 'supposed' to go.)

2)Slap an external simrig on a technomancer and have them start exploring the matrix. Make sure the technomancer doesn't do anything illegal (while recording, at least) and you have yourself some really cool stuff to analyze. Not only can non-technomancers 'feel' deep resonance (or disonance, whichever way your technomancer goes) but if the simrig is on while a technomancer compiles, then that would help non-technomancers figure out what the heck a sprite is (you can't get what their thinking, but you get all the five senses and emotions.) Plus, I would think it would be pretty cool to 'feel' yourself just look at a matrix node, then 'jump' into it without any machinery or anything.

I am sure there are other cool things to do with simsense. If you have any ideas, please post!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Heath Robinson
post Mar 11 2009, 06:59 PM
Post #2


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,263
Joined: 4-March 08
From: Blighty
Member No.: 15,736



To run in HotSim you need a Hot modified Sim module and a DNI. It doesn't matter if that's in your head or external. External modules are more easily replaced, though. It's impossible to switch you into HotSim if your Sim module can't run Hot.

1) Ayup, but most people don't have the right sensory setup. I expect most mundanes would experience a mage casting a spell as a temporary burst of "static" in their senses and then the exhaustion/pain of taking drain.

2) Technos hitting the Matrix experience the same thing as everyone else - the iconography of a node. Recording what they experienced would just end up a degraded copy of that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DoomFrog
post Mar 11 2009, 07:17 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 115
Joined: 5-March 09
From: Bay Area, CA
Member No.: 16,942



If you don't want an implanted Commlink because you want to mod it later, then you need to have a datajack implanted. Then you hook your sim module or commlink to your datajack.

Or you can buy Trodes if you don't want to have anything implanted.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Mar 11 2009, 08:23 PM
Post #4


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



There's an implication in Runner Havens (Bureau of Heaven and Earth) that Technomancers can save memories and experiecnes to exterenal storage without a Simrig. Is this comfirmable in the rules, or do we need to assume they go for simrigs due to their distrust of meat memory?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Degausser
post Mar 11 2009, 08:50 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 380
Joined: 19-May 07
Member No.: 11,698



QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 11 2009, 03:23 PM) *
There's an implication in Runner Havens (Bureau of Heaven and Earth) that Technomancers can save memories and experiecnes to exterenal storage without a Simrig. Is this comfirmable in the rules, or do we need to assume they go for simrigs due to their distrust of meat memory?


Interesting question . . . I hadn't read that part, but it seems like an interesting idea. A simsesne experience is just recorded data, and can go on any storage medium (your comlink, a chip, a BTL chip.) I would liken it to a Nintendo Wii game. You can have the data all you want, get the DVD and run through it, download it, copy it, whatever (with a computer and th right applications.) But to actually PLAY the Wii game, you need the hardware that supports the Wiimote.

So, in this sense, you could possibly 'program' your own simsense without a simrig, if you wanted, though it would suck. Just like we can do CG animations of people, but it is obvious CG. This is why people still do motion capture. Because, no mater how good you are at CG animations, a human reference point is better at depicting how bodies move. In other words, I would expect Programmed simsense is to CG animation, as recorded simsense would be to motion captured CG.

Since Technomancers can directly write any data they want to memory, I can see an arguement that they wouldn't need a rig. Of course, the counter argument would be "How would they know what format to write it down in, and how simrigs decode the data?" As a GM I would probably rule that, if the technomancer in question had the Edit and maybe Encrypt complex forms, then she could record her own simsense without a rig. Of course, she would have to see a rig first and take some time 'exploring' it to figure out how it worked on a software level.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DoomFrog
post Mar 11 2009, 08:50 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 115
Joined: 5-March 09
From: Bay Area, CA
Member No.: 16,942



In the Core book it says that Technomancers can mentally transfer data to physical storage devices.

Personally I would require the player to have the Edit complex form, and for saving memories as simsense data that they have a simsense rig to convert the memory into simsense data, but they wouldn't need an implant or trodes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tiger Eyes
post Mar 11 2009, 10:46 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 732
Joined: 21-July 05
From: Seattle
Member No.: 7,508



In Unwired, p. 136, Technomancers may mimic both Simrigs and Smartlinks via threading, using them as a non-rated complex form (or spend Karma to buy them; treat them as if they were a complex form rating 1 for Karma cost purposes).

Although the Simrig threading or complex form allows them to record their own experiences (both physical and emotional), and to convert the file into a format readable by normal sim modules, it does not save the material until the TM can save it to an external memory device.

So, yes, there are TMs who save every waking moment - heck, even sleeping moments - to some giant data cache.

Personally, I'd rule that a non-techno who views a TMs sim experience of the resonance (not the *deep resonance*, which severs you from your body and any memory devices), wouldn't see the extra contextual experience that a TM sees. This is one reason that there are no activesofts available for Resonance-based skills.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Mar 12 2009, 04:13 AM
Post #8


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Mar 11 2009, 06:46 PM) *
In Unwired, p. 136, Technomancers may mimic both Simrigs and Smartlinks via threading, using them as a non-rated complex form (or spend Karma to buy them; treat them as if they were a complex form rating 1 for Karma cost purposes).


Tiger Eyes, Technomancers can buy Smartlink as a Complex form, but can Hackers create a program to do the same thing?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tiger Eyes
post Mar 12 2009, 04:23 AM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 732
Joined: 21-July 05
From: Seattle
Member No.: 7,508



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 11 2009, 11:13 PM) *
Tiger Eyes, Technomancers can buy Smartlink as a Complex form, but can Hackers create a program to do the same thing?


No. Hackers can't create a program that lets them record their emotions and physical experiences with no hardware, either.

(hey, it costs a technomancer 2 karma to permanently learn something that costs 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to stick in a pair of contacts or glasses, it's not particularly game breaking.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Mar 12 2009, 04:31 AM
Post #10


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Mar 11 2009, 11:23 PM) *
No. Hackers can't create a program that lets them record their emotions and physical experiences with no hardware, either.

(hey, it costs a technomancer 2 karma to permanently learn something that costs 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to stick in a pair of contacts or glasses, it's not particularly game breaking.)


OK Tiger, that's comparing Apples to Oranges. A Technomancer has the "hardware" for sim sense built in, and it's only a "small" tweak to get a sim rig. In fact, here's the exact text from 136:

QUOTE
he normally lacks the hard-coded tactical software to translate the information into visual cues that simplify target recognition, aiming, and shooting in combat.


It's not hardware, but software. I think that unless the Technomancer is going to use Sprites, then a Hacker also be able to code a smartlink software program to run on a commlink and send that data to either a displaylink or simsense.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tiger Eyes
post Mar 12 2009, 04:45 AM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 732
Joined: 21-July 05
From: Seattle
Member No.: 7,508



LOL. My kids do this to me all the time. Ask a question, don't like the answer, and then attempt to wiggle around it (or go ask their daddy and in hopes of a different answer). You asked a yes or no question, I answered. My answer remains the same: no.

If you dislike my answer, you don't need to argue or justify your position. Just do it different in your game and call it a house-rule. If it were RAW, it'd be in the BBB or Unwired, believe me. Heck, we have house-rules even at my table. The role-playing police have yet to come storming in to arrest us for breaking the RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Although, hm, if Vin was on the cop-squad, I'd be all for breaking more rules!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Mar 12 2009, 05:05 AM
Post #12


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Mar 12 2009, 12:45 AM) *
LOL. My kids do this to me all the time. Ask a question, don't like the answer, and then attempt to wiggle around it (or go ask their daddy and in hopes of a different answer). You asked a yes or no question, I answered. My answer remains the same: no.


OK, if you're going to treat me like a child, then please be the adult and explain WHY a technomancer can make a program complex form that is described in RAW as SOFTWARE, and a hacker can't.

Oh Tiger, that's pretty poor form. I was pointing out something that could happen (smarlink program for a commlink) and you had to compare me to a child... poor form indeed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ustio
post Mar 12 2009, 10:59 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 22-October 07
From: Merseysprawl (Manchester)
Member No.: 13,827



I think the reason that TMs can run a complex form based simrigs/smartlinks (which is just a very specialised simrig) is that their neural system is different, It's similar to how they can duplicate other bits of cyerware with echoes (skillwires, wired reflexes, control rig), but since from a game balance side a simrig or smartlink isn't worth 15 karma but is worth 2 they get treated as CFs.

From a fluff perspective its just the techno learning to prcess the sensory information from his nervous system into a digital medium rather than the reverse. Now if a Hacker already had a Simrig Id let him program a smartlink software to run on it and go that route (because 3ed had the SL buyable as seperate components (in fact I think it was practicully a cybersuite)

This also has the potential to allow other similar cyber/bio/nano ware to be simulated as CF's or Echoes (Math SPU, Encephalon, most of the Neo Cortical stimulator nanites, Control Rig Booster), pretty much anything which is a computer like function and could be seen to be a modification of theri neural structure (which echoes seem to modifiy - Id love to see a brain scan of a TM before and after gaining 'Overclock' or some of the other echoes.

However it should be made clear wether the TM versions stack with the mechanical versions (at the moment you can build a techno who gets +7/9 to pilot tests [+2 Control Rig, +2 TM Echo for vehicles, +3 Control rig booster, (+2VR)] although why you wouldnt just use a threaded Command (12) CF I dont know.


EDIT: clearing up some grammar
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Mar 12 2009, 02:15 PM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Ustio @ Mar 12 2009, 05:59 AM) *
I think the reason that TMs can run a complex form based simrigs/smartlinks (which is just a very specialised simrig) is that their neural system is different, It's similar to how they can duplicate other bits of cyerware with echoes (skillwires, wired reflexes, control rig), but since from a game balance side a simrig or smartlink isn't worth 15 karma but is worth 2 they get treated as CFs.


With Echos they can "emulate" hardware. I have absolutely no problem with that. My problem is that by RAW, smartlink is described as software interacting with the hardware of the weapon. The smartlinked weapon is the hardware. The software should be able to run on a commlink.

Now if Technomancers had to use a sprite to use a smartlinked weapon without the eye mod, then I would have never even asked the question.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DoomFrog
post Mar 12 2009, 10:41 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 115
Joined: 5-March 09
From: Bay Area, CA
Member No.: 16,942



KCK,

Yes hackers can make their own smartlink software. Of course anyone with the Software skill could make their own smartlink software.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 12th July 2024 - 03:09 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.