Are Adept Characters really worth it Options

[Gunslinger057]

As an assistant GM for my local Shadowrun group, I have had the privilege of crafting more than a few characters for our GM to throw at our party. While in the process of making a 500BP adept character, I began to question just how legitimate adepts are, at least as far as low level prime runners and PC's are concerned. My question is this: how can adept characters possibly compete with cyberware/bioware characters in the short term, and, potentially the long term. Now, I'm not looking for an explanation of how adept characters are better perse; what I'm looking for is whether or not the two builds are balanced right off the bat.

I should hope that, given enough Karma, an adept character might come out on top - much like a technomancer vs a hacker. Is this the case? Are adept characters just karma sinks that require a bit more playtime before they become equivalent?

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Muspellsheimr]

If by a bit more, you mean at minimum several hundred Karma, then yes.

Even after SR4A changes, Adepts (RAW) are easily out-done by augmented characters.

[Malicant]

Adepts need focus, a very narrow focus of expertise. The moment you spread their magic into different fields, they start sucking big, hairy troll balls. They are worth it, but as stated before can easily be outperformed by augmented chars. Beware augmented adepts, though. They are costly to generate, but beasts to behold.

[Fuchs]

Adepts that use choice bits of cyber and bioware are the best in what field they choose.

[pbangarth]

If all you are taking into account is the "bang for your buck" argument, then adepts suffer in many roles when compared to augmented mundanes. They do 'eventually' catch up and even excel, but that takes huge amounts of karma. Fuchs is right about the combination of adept powers and augmentation.

There are, however, many powers adepts have that other characters do not, and they can fill niches that augmentation cannot do, or at least not as efficiently. Also, if issues of character background and story guide your decision, then "bang for your buck" may take a back seat to these considerations.

[Glyph]

Generally, street samurai make better combat generalists (speed plus damage soaking plus senseware plus 'ware to increase stats and boost dice pools). Adepts make better specialists, and have some abilities that street samurai simply can't get (killing hands or weapon foci to attack spirits, for example).

An adept with 1 or 2 points of bioware will be even more hyper-specialized than a normal adept, but will be brutally effective in their main combat niche - they get to combine magic and technology for extra effectiveness. Examples - an adept who gets muscle toner: 4 (with the retricted gear quality), cybereyes and a radar sensor, but also gets improved ability/pistols: 3. He's the absolute best with his pistol, although he will have had to sacrifice in other areas to get it.

"Pure" adepts are still playable, though. You can make someone with a Magic of 6 who has improved reflexes: 2 and combat sense: 6, for example. He won't hit as hard or be quite as versatile as the sammie, but he will be very difficult to hit. An adept face can have kinesics: 3 (the new rules cap it at this), improved ability in some social skills, and some supplementary powers such as linguistics, commanding voice, or multi-tasking. You can even do a face/detective by adding some analytics and enhanced perception to the mix.

Adepts, whether enhanced by technology or "natural", can be effective in a number of ways, but you need to defer to their areas of strength, rather than trying to make the functional equivalent of a street samurai out of them.

[crash2029]

I made an adept hacker that was rather effective.

[DireRadiant]

How do you measure worth?

[pbangarth]

Exactly!

[Cain]

How do you measure worth?

By the size of your dice pool.

[BlueMax]

By the size of your dice pool.

I would accept this if the pool could solve every problem but its not true. Some pools solve some problems but not all.

But the big pool one trick ponies make the best glue. So, they have that going for them. Which is nice.

If worth can be defined, it is by what you enjoy playing. And even then, I don't know if it can be defined.

[Glyph]

"Worth" can vary from campaign to campaign, but the original poster was looking at it from the viewpoint of the cold, hard, dice. And from that viewpoint, adepts can do quite well. All you have to do is play to their strengths.

An adept sniper will roll more dice for sniping, and have combat sense for better dodging, but probably be a bit less durable, and versatile, than the street samurai.

An adept martial artist will roll more dice and do more damage for unarmed attacks, in addition to some unique abilities (being able to affect spirits with killing hands, being able to channel elemental energy into an unarmed attack, etc.), but will have to choose to be good in either initiative passes, or durability (orthoskin, bone lacing), while a street samurai will be good at both, and probably have a wider spread of skills outside of martial arts (for example, having more ranged attack options).

It's all about tradeoffs.

[Neraph]

It's all about tradeoffs.

Such as having a higher Essence for the party band-aid, for example.

Don't forget, the potential yield for Increase (Attribute) makes having a couple points in it possible to reach Augmented Max at chargen (Magic 6, Power Focus 4 helps).

[Gunslinger057]

Such as having a higher Essence for the party band-aid, for example.

Don't forget, the potential yield for Increase (Attribute) makes having a couple points in it possible to reach Augmented Max at chargen (Magic 6, Power Focus 4 helps).

I understand that a power focus would be useful for an adept character, but how exactly does it pertain to the power Increase Attribute? Did you mean Attribute Boost? Also, I was thinking about making an adept with some form of IP enhancing cyber/bioware, just because improved reflexes is so expensive as far as power points goes.

[ElFenrir]

Oh, if you can soak up the nuyen cost(80k-160k, or 16-32 bp worth, so no small amount), a level or two of Synaptic Boosters is by far the most essence-friendly, and cost-friendly, method. If you don't mind the nuyen cost, for 106k, you can get, for 1 essence point:

Level 1 Synaptic Boosters(+1 Reaction, +1 Initiative)
Level 1 Synthacardium(+1 all Athletics tests, including Gymnastics Dodge), OR Reflex Recorder(Skill), for a free +1 to the skill(saving half a point)
Level 2 Muscle Toner for +2 Agility. (You may want some Strength for a melee character, but for an adept, unarmed usually just stack Martial Arts and Critical Strike. A sword person might benefit from an extra 1 DV or so. But Agility is usually seen by far the more 'optimal' of the two stats to raise.


And then you still have a full 5 power points to spend, and your base die pool(Agility) is up by 2, you get your extra pass, an extra point of Reaction, and either an extra Athletics die or an extra skill die for your skill.

Yeah, bio adepts are usually more optimal. I do have a pure one now, though, that still throws 17 dice for his primary skill AND has an extra pass, but yeah, he's pretty specialized, like was mentioned. The bio-adept with the extra Agility, for example, can also rock about 17 other Agility linked skills very well and he doesn't have to scratch so much for them.

[Muspellsheimr]

I would like to point out than an Adept cannot bond a Power Focus. A Mystic Adept can, but it would only benefit the Magician aspect, & Adept powers with a dice pool based off Magic, such as Attribute Boost.

[pbangarth]

I would like to point out than an Adept cannot bond a Power Focus. A Mystic Adept can, but it would only benefit the Magician aspect, & Adept powers with a dice pool based off Magic, such as Attribute Boost.

Where are we actually told this?

[Malicant]

In magical fairyland. The BBB does not prohibit an adept from bonding a powerfocus that will not benefit him very much. You're free to waste money and Karma anyway you wish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and
mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus.

That, and the descriptions of all the foci refer to the "magician", excepting Weapon Foci, which refer to the "Awakened".

[Glyph]

Under Foci, on pg. 85 of the main rulebook:

Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus.

I would probably allow it anyways, since a power focus is potentially useful to a few adept powers - an adept binding a power focus would be wasting a lot of build points for very little, though, in my opinion.

[pbangarth]

The text referring to adept bonding in SR4A, p. 87 appears to have eliminated this restriction. Good on them!

[Muspellsheimr]

Except, again, the text describing the foci in SR4A all specifically state "magician", except the Weapon Focus, which is "Awakened character".

[Malicant]

Yes, but then Mystic Adepts would be unable to bond them. That would suck.

[pbangarth]

Except, again, the text describing the foci in SR4A all specifically state "magician", except the Weapon Focus, which is "Awakened character".

Text saying "Adepts cannot..." is a clear restriction. Imprecise text switching "magician" and "Awakened" around is open to interpretation. The restriction has been removed. The imprecise text has remained.

And, in SR4A, the imprecise text is a page after the section (p. 198) that restricts metamagics for adepts to Centering, Flexible Signature and Masking. In the very next section is listed "Adept Centering (Adepts Only)."

They need our help to point these things out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

I would accept this if the pool could solve every problem but its not true. Some pools solve some problems but not all.

But the big pool one trick ponies make the best glue. So, they have that going for them. Which is nice.

If worth can be defined, it is by what you enjoy playing. And even then, I don't know if it can be defined.

What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?