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Gunslinger057
As an assistant GM for my local Shadowrun group, I have had the privilege of crafting more than a few characters for our GM to throw at our party. While in the process of making a 500BP adept character, I began to question just how legitimate adepts are, at least as far as low level prime runners and PC's are concerned. My question is this: how can adept characters possibly compete with cyberware/bioware characters in the short term, and, potentially the long term. Now, I'm not looking for an explanation of how adept characters are better perse; what I'm looking for is whether or not the two builds are balanced right off the bat.

I should hope that, given enough Karma, an adept character might come out on top - much like a technomancer vs a hacker. Is this the case? Are adept characters just karma sinks that require a bit more playtime before they become equivalent?

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!
Muspellsheimr
If by a bit more, you mean at minimum several hundred Karma, then yes.

Even after SR4A changes, Adepts (RAW) are easily out-done by augmented characters.
Malicant
Adepts need focus, a very narrow focus of expertise. The moment you spread their magic into different fields, they start sucking big, hairy troll balls. They are worth it, but as stated before can easily be outperformed by augmented chars. Beware augmented adepts, though. They are costly to generate, but beasts to behold.
Fuchs
Adepts that use choice bits of cyber and bioware are the best in what field they choose.
pbangarth
If all you are taking into account is the "bang for your buck" argument, then adepts suffer in many roles when compared to augmented mundanes. They do 'eventually' catch up and even excel, but that takes huge amounts of karma. Fuchs is right about the combination of adept powers and augmentation.

There are, however, many powers adepts have that other characters do not, and they can fill niches that augmentation cannot do, or at least not as efficiently. Also, if issues of character background and story guide your decision, then "bang for your buck" may take a back seat to these considerations.
Glyph
Generally, street samurai make better combat generalists (speed plus damage soaking plus senseware plus 'ware to increase stats and boost dice pools). Adepts make better specialists, and have some abilities that street samurai simply can't get (killing hands or weapon foci to attack spirits, for example).

An adept with 1 or 2 points of bioware will be even more hyper-specialized than a normal adept, but will be brutally effective in their main combat niche - they get to combine magic and technology for extra effectiveness. Examples - an adept who gets muscle toner: 4 (with the retricted gear quality), cybereyes and a radar sensor, but also gets improved ability/pistols: 3. He's the absolute best with his pistol, although he will have had to sacrifice in other areas to get it.

"Pure" adepts are still playable, though. You can make someone with a Magic of 6 who has improved reflexes: 2 and combat sense: 6, for example. He won't hit as hard or be quite as versatile as the sammie, but he will be very difficult to hit. An adept face can have kinesics: 3 (the new rules cap it at this), improved ability in some social skills, and some supplementary powers such as linguistics, commanding voice, or multi-tasking. You can even do a face/detective by adding some analytics and enhanced perception to the mix.

Adepts, whether enhanced by technology or "natural", can be effective in a number of ways, but you need to defer to their areas of strength, rather than trying to make the functional equivalent of a street samurai out of them.
crash2029
I made an adept hacker that was rather effective.
DireRadiant
How do you measure worth?
pbangarth
Exactly!
Cain
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 14 2009, 07:35 PM) *
How do you measure worth?

By the size of your dice pool.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 14 2009, 11:05 PM) *
By the size of your dice pool.

I would accept this if the pool could solve every problem but its not true. Some pools solve some problems but not all.

But the big pool one trick ponies make the best glue. So, they have that going for them. Which is nice.

If worth can be defined, it is by what you enjoy playing. And even then, I don't know if it can be defined.
Glyph
"Worth" can vary from campaign to campaign, but the original poster was looking at it from the viewpoint of the cold, hard, dice. And from that viewpoint, adepts can do quite well. All you have to do is play to their strengths.

An adept sniper will roll more dice for sniping, and have combat sense for better dodging, but probably be a bit less durable, and versatile, than the street samurai.

An adept martial artist will roll more dice and do more damage for unarmed attacks, in addition to some unique abilities (being able to affect spirits with killing hands, being able to channel elemental energy into an unarmed attack, etc.), but will have to choose to be good in either initiative passes, or durability (orthoskin, bone lacing), while a street samurai will be good at both, and probably have a wider spread of skills outside of martial arts (for example, having more ranged attack options).

It's all about tradeoffs.
Neraph
QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 15 2009, 02:48 AM) *
It's all about tradeoffs.

Such as having a higher Essence for the party band-aid, for example.

Don't forget, the potential yield for Increase (Attribute) makes having a couple points in it possible to reach Augmented Max at chargen (Magic 6, Power Focus 4 helps).
Gunslinger057
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 15 2009, 11:36 AM) *
Such as having a higher Essence for the party band-aid, for example.

Don't forget, the potential yield for Increase (Attribute) makes having a couple points in it possible to reach Augmented Max at chargen (Magic 6, Power Focus 4 helps).



I understand that a power focus would be useful for an adept character, but how exactly does it pertain to the power Increase Attribute? Did you mean Attribute Boost? Also, I was thinking about making an adept with some form of IP enhancing cyber/bioware, just because improved reflexes is so expensive as far as power points goes.
ElFenrir
Oh, if you can soak up the nuyen cost(80k-160k, or 16-32 bp worth, so no small amount), a level or two of Synaptic Boosters is by far the most essence-friendly, and cost-friendly, method. If you don't mind the nuyen cost, for 106k, you can get, for 1 essence point:

Level 1 Synaptic Boosters(+1 Reaction, +1 Initiative)
Level 1 Synthacardium(+1 all Athletics tests, including Gymnastics Dodge), OR Reflex Recorder(Skill), for a free +1 to the skill(saving half a point)
Level 2 Muscle Toner for +2 Agility. (You may want some Strength for a melee character, but for an adept, unarmed usually just stack Martial Arts and Critical Strike. A sword person might benefit from an extra 1 DV or so. But Agility is usually seen by far the more 'optimal' of the two stats to raise.


And then you still have a full 5 power points to spend, and your base die pool(Agility) is up by 2, you get your extra pass, an extra point of Reaction, and either an extra Athletics die or an extra skill die for your skill.

Yeah, bio adepts are usually more optimal. I do have a pure one now, though, that still throws 17 dice for his primary skill AND has an extra pass, but yeah, he's pretty specialized, like was mentioned. The bio-adept with the extra Agility, for example, can also rock about 17 other Agility linked skills very well and he doesn't have to scratch so much for them.
Muspellsheimr
I would like to point out than an Adept cannot bond a Power Focus. A Mystic Adept can, but it would only benefit the Magician aspect, & Adept powers with a dice pool based off Magic, such as Attribute Boost.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 15 2009, 03:51 PM) *
I would like to point out than an Adept cannot bond a Power Focus. A Mystic Adept can, but it would only benefit the Magician aspect, & Adept powers with a dice pool based off Magic, such as Attribute Boost.


Where are we actually told this?
Malicant
In magical fairyland. The BBB does not prohibit an adept from bonding a powerfocus that will not benefit him very much. You're free to waste money and Karma anyway you wish smile.gif
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (SR4 p.85)
Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and
mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus.

That, and the descriptions of all the foci refer to the "magician", excepting Weapon Foci, which refer to the "Awakened".
Glyph
Under Foci, on pg. 85 of the main rulebook:

QUOTE
Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus.

I would probably allow it anyways, since a power focus is potentially useful to a few adept powers - an adept binding a power focus would be wasting a lot of build points for very little, though, in my opinion.
pbangarth
The text referring to adept bonding in SR4A, p. 87 appears to have eliminated this restriction. Good on them!
Muspellsheimr
Except, again, the text describing the foci in SR4A all specifically state "magician", except the Weapon Focus, which is "Awakened character".
Malicant
Yes, but then Mystic Adepts would be unable to bond them. That would suck.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 15 2009, 04:40 PM) *
Except, again, the text describing the foci in SR4A all specifically state "magician", except the Weapon Focus, which is "Awakened character".


Text saying "Adepts cannot..." is a clear restriction. Imprecise text switching "magician" and "Awakened" around is open to interpretation. The restriction has been removed. The imprecise text has remained.

And, in SR4A, the imprecise text is a page after the section (p. 198) that restricts metamagics for adepts to Centering, Flexible Signature and Masking. In the very next section is listed "Adept Centering (Adepts Only)."

They need our help to point these things out. smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Mar 15 2009, 03:12 PM) *
I would accept this if the pool could solve every problem but its not true. Some pools solve some problems but not all.

But the big pool one trick ponies make the best glue. So, they have that going for them. Which is nice.

If worth can be defined, it is by what you enjoy playing. And even then, I don't know if it can be defined.

What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?
Zurai
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 15 2009, 11:18 PM) *
What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?


Killing a Great Dragon.
merashin
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 15 2009, 08:18 PM) *
What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?

breaking the fourth wall
Maelstrome
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 16 2009, 03:18 AM) *
What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?


role playing.
toturi
QUOTE (Maelstrome @ Mar 16 2009, 01:19 PM) *
role playing.

QUOTE
breaking the fourth wall

These are not in-game problems. If they are, then the solutions are simple - more dice for the appropriate Knowledge skill dice pools.
Zurai
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 16 2009, 01:03 AM) *
These are not in-game problems. If they are, then the solutions are simple - more dice for the appropriate Knowledge skill dice pools.


No, I'm sorry ... (lack of) roleplaying IS an in-game problem, and it CANNOT be solved by throwing more dice at it. It's a far better answer than mine was.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 15 2009, 10:18 PM) *
What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?


There is always the critical decision on whether or not to actually use the dice pool at all. There are many situations where using the dice pool, successful or not, is extremely counterproductive. The size of the dice pool does nothing for you if you make a poor choice.
Zen Shooter01
Two often overlooked advantages that adepts have over augmented characters are that adepts are easier to heal, because their Essence is higher. Second, adepts are much harder to detect. A street samurai's cyberware, not to mention his equipment, can be detected with commonly available sensors. An adept's powers can't.

And do not overlook the value of Killing Hands in a classic martial artist adept build. Use Killing Hands, Critical Strike, Elemental Strike, and/or the Martial Arts rules from ARS, and you've got a character who can walk straight through any mundane pat-down, radar sensor sweep, or metal detector, but still be laying down unarmed combat damage similar to a shotgun, and putting his fist straight through Immunity To Normal Weapons and Regeneration.

I've never understood the argument that adepts are inferior to street samurai.
pbangarth
The wide range of powers and metamagics available to adepts (not even including mystic adepts) allow them to be warriors, artists, scientists, detectives, scouts, 'faces', healers.... the list goes on. All this added on to the advantages Zen Shooter01 and others have pointed out.

One could make a credible argument that adepts are the most flexible of SR archetypes. Of course they are worth it!
darthmord
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 16 2009, 10:13 AM) *
The wide range of powers and metamagics available to adepts (not even including mystic adepts) allow them to be warriors, artists, scientists, detectives, scouts, 'faces', healers.... the list goes on. All this added on to the advantages Zen Shooter01 and others have pointed out.

One could make a credible argument that adepts are the most flexible of SR archetypes. Of course they are worth it!


I have to agree. I made a mystic adept for a campaign I joined and while he's not a powerhouse, he's rather flexible and useful in a variety of areas.

Every occasion can use an adept. They are that flexible of a base archtype.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Mar 16 2009, 08:57 AM) *
Two often overlooked advantages that adepts have over augmented characters are that adepts are easier to heal, because their Essence is higher. Second, adepts are much harder to detect. A street samurai's cyberware, not to mention his equipment, can be detected with commonly available sensors. An adept's powers can't.

And do not overlook the value of Killing Hands in a classic martial artist adept build. Use Killing Hands, Critical Strike, Elemental Strike, and/or the Martial Arts rules from ARS, and you've got a character who can walk straight through any mundane pat-down, radar sensor sweep, or metal detector, but still be laying down unarmed combat damage similar to a shotgun, and putting his fist straight through Immunity To Normal Weapons and Regeneration.

I've never understood the argument that adepts are inferior to street samurai.


I agree totally. I played a PhsAd in SR3 and he was the only one in the group that could get close to a target to kill them because he was the only one that could get past tech based scanners and still kill the target with his bare hands in one shot.
PhsAds are best as political killers because they look like normal unaugmented people and it requires a mage to assence them directly to see their magical side (not an easy task when there is a PhsAd hidden in a crowd).
Agent 333
Adepts with Spell Resitance and Killer Hands make decent mage killers: Able to take out Spirits better than a Street Sammie, and more capable (slightly) at resisting direct combat spells. Admittedly, an actual mage would probably be a better mage killer, but Adepts are no slouches at it.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 15 2009, 10:18 PM) *
What in-game problem can't be solved by a large enough dice pool?

If brute force doesn't work then you aren't using enough!

seriously though there is the cost of generating a given pool. Aiming and k10 aren't always good calls even if they can almost universally raise your DP. One center piece of SR is that it is a game of consequences; and not in frequently the consequences of generating disgusting DPs necessary to install after market speed holes... in faces... for money.

And this really is where adepts shine mechanically. They can just do what they do. They don't need to get binding materials or more drones or creates of grenades or anything. And all of there powers are prices to reflect that amazing accessibility. Paying for a whole PC that includes that mark up can be challenging, but you are buying something very really and mechanical for that cost even if it isn't BP


PS @Zurai: in-game != at-game

toturi
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 17 2009, 06:46 AM) *
And this really is where adepts shine mechanically. They can just do what they do. They don't need to get binding materials or more drones or creates of grenades or anything. And all of there powers are prices to reflect that amazing accessibility. Paying for a whole PC that includes that mark up can be challenging, but you are buying something very really and mechanical for that cost even if it isn't BP

The caveat being that an adept like other Awakened characters need to avoid Background Count to shine.
WeaverMount
True, but background count really isn't that common. Actually fallowing through with a Hyzmarka fantasy will only give you a 1 maybe 2 BC the size of a room, and even in 2070 /those/ aren't happening that often. Mana Static is an issue, but the PC face that spell at such wildly different frequencies depending on how the GM renders the game world it's hard to talk about it meaningfully.
toturi
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 17 2009, 12:45 PM) *
True, but background count really isn't that common. Actually fallowing through with a Hyzmarka fantasy will only give you a 1 maybe 2 BC the size of a room, and even in 2070 /those/ aren't happening that often. Mana Static is an issue, but the PC face that spell at such wildly different frequencies depending on how the GM renders the game world it's hard to talk about it meaningfully.

I have no idea how SR4A will change things, but Astral Hazing is a flat 4 that is mobile too.
TBRMInsanity
I know if an PhyAd enters a background count area that they start to lose powers. Is the reverse true if they enter a power site, do they gain powers temporarily? Do you just boost the effects of their current powers?
pbangarth
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 17 2009, 09:32 AM) *
I know if an PhyAd enters a background count area that they start to lose powers. Is the reverse true if they enter a power site, do they gain powers temporarily? Do you just boost the effects of their current powers?


If the power site is aspected towards the tradition of the adept (SM, p. 118), then the adept doesn't lose Magic rating, but the advantage is merely in the form of a dice pool modifier for Magical Skill Tests and Drain Resistance Tests, so no added powers would come to an adept.
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