SR4A: Is Firewall 6 impossible? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Andinel]

I was looking over making a character earlier today, and with the new updated rules for improving devices, since the highest base Firewall is 3, is it now impossible to get a Firewall of 6 on any character's commlink? Or is this an unintended change?

[Zurai]

You have to build it from scratch, but it is possible to get it that way. No starting with FW6 any more, though.

[Ayeohx]

Good question. Is the "A device's ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings." rule for the hardware portion only (the signal & response)? On pg 232 & 330 it looks like you can just buy the System and Firewall separately. Would this also work for a device other than a commlink such as a home terminal or a piece of headware?

Is the cost for a rating 6 Firewall 3000 or 2100 nuyen? I'd expect 3000, just clarifying.

Also, if I had a data terminal (Rating 3 Device) and I wanted to throw a killer firewall on it, let's say a 6, do I pay the full price (2100 or 3k depending on answer to above question) or the difference? I expect the full price...

[Andinel]

You have to build it from scratch, but it is possible to get it that way. No starting with FW6 any more, though.

Where does it say that building the Firewall from scratch can exceed the +2 improvement cap? I can't find that anywhere in SR4A.

Good question. Is the "A device's ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings." rule for the hardware portion only (the signal & response)? On pg 232 & 330 it looks like you can just buy the System and Firewall separately. Would this also work for a device other than a commlink such as a home terminal or a piece of headware?

Is the cost for a rating 6 Firewall 3000 or 2100 nuyen? I'd expect 3000, just clarifying.

Also, if I had a data terminal (Rating 3 Device) and I wanted to throw a killer firewall on it, let's say a 6, do I pay the full price (2100 or 3k depending on answer to above question) or the difference? I expect the full price...

I don't see why a Rating 6 Firewall would be 2100. The book pretty explicitly lists out the cost as 500 x Rating for rating up to 6. Also, I think you would have to pay the full price since it's basically changing the firewall software for something better.

[Zurai]

Where does it say that building the Firewall from scratch can exceed the +2 improvement cap? I can't find that anywhere in SR4A.

Uh, because you're not improving your OS, you're making it from scratch? If there's no base rating, the base+2 rule doesn't apply. I'm talking about building the whole OS from scratch here, thus the "you can't do it at character creation".

[Andinel]

Uh, because you're not improving your OS, you're making it from scratch? If there's no base rating, the base+2 rule doesn't apply. I'm talking about building the whole OS from scratch here, thus the "you can't do it at character creation".

I'm not exactly sure how this would work. What would constitute an "upgrade," then? Because the way the rules appear to me is that any increase in the values is considered an "upgrade." So unless you have a hacker friend do nothing but program a Firewall at Rating 6 for 6 months which won't be able to be patched without a lot of extra work and degrade in the meantime, you can't ever get Firewall 6? That just doesn't make much sense.

Basically, what you're saying is that I have to program the whole OS by myself to get a Firewall 6 instead of going to the store and buying a Rating 6 Firewall off the shelf, then installing it in my commlink, a difference only in the fact that programming it myself would both be time-consuming and free. Why wait 6 months to a year when I can wait a few days and get my Rating 6 Firewall from a store?

Unfortunately, under the SR4A rules, either one seems impossible, since you're limited to +2 from base attributes and the highest Firewall (or even Pilot, for drones and vehicles) is 3.

[Degausser]

(Snip) "A device's ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings." rule for the hardware portion only (the signal & response)? (Snip)

I disregard this rule, as it makes no sense whatsoever. I realize it is designed to require superhackers to buy more expensive Commlinks (thus given them an incentive to get more money.) But to me it is just stupid. If I buy an out-of-the-box Dell (assuming i can access it's innards). Then I can replace it's motherboard and CPU (it's Response) with anything that will fit, and I can replace it's Wifi Connection (Signal) with anything I want, and I still have the machine's power supply, video card, DVD drive, hard disk, whatever. Now, you need a certain amount of knowledge, and tools, to do this, which is why most people would shovel out a few extra hundred dollars for a factory-standard tricked out machine. . . because they don't know how to do that themselves (which is fine.)

Besides, hackers have enough incentives for cash. They have to buy a crap-ton of programs for one (YES, I KNOW they can make their own . . . but seriously, what shadowrunner is going to go on a several MONTH hiatus just to program his own EXPLOIT software, when he can just pay out some of the cash from his last few runs and keep in the game?) And, are they going to do that for EVERY piece of hacking software they need? How many hacking programs are there? He'd be programming till 2200!

[Beetle]

If I buy an out-of-the-box Dell (assuming i can access it's innards). Then I can replace it's motherboard and CPU (it's Response) with anything that will fit.

You just answered the reason for the +2 cap. If you go buy that base model Dell, there's only a certain amount of processors that will fit into the motherboard. If you're lucky, the computer that came with a Celeron chip, might support the Core 2 Quad. However it's not going to support the 53nm
i7 chips, which are the cutting edge at the moment.

Sure it's a means to get hackers to invest more cash into their gear, but it looks like the Devs were trying to invest some real world logic with the upgrades. I haven't had enough time to dig through my pdf as I snagged it late last night, so my opinion on the subject may change, but on a quick glance, I can understand the base intent.

[Draco18s]

You just answered the reason for the +2 cap. If you go buy that base model Dell, there's only a certain amount of processors that will fit into the motherboard.

I can also replace the damn motherboard, can't I?

[Malicant]

Uh, because you're not improving your OS, you're making it from scratch? If there's no base rating, the base+2 rule doesn't apply. I'm talking about building the whole OS from scratch here, thus the "you can't do it at character creation".

But if you build from scratch, you start with 0, so you can never go above rating 2 if you do it yourself from scratch... yes, I'm not serious.

[hobgoblin]

I can also replace the damn motherboard, can't I?

imo, thats basically the same as getting a new machine (or at the very least building a new one from parts).

thing one should not forget about SR tho is that even back in SR2 one could burn ones own CPU (MPCP) via desktop tools.

thats the 2050's. i do not think that its become any harder to do so in the 2070's.

so when the book talks about building ones own hardware, it really means it, all the way down to the individual chips and boards...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I was looking over making a character earlier today, and with the new updated rules for improving devices, since the highest base Firewall is 3, is it now impossible to get a Firewall of 6 on any character's commlink?

Commlinks don't have an original Firewall rating - only Devices have, and Stock Operation Systems.

So there is no cap for Firewall and System when it comes to Commlinks, as there is no need to run a Stock Operation System.

[Uthred]

I can also replace the damn motherboard, can't I?

But if you replace the motherboard you may have to replace the ram and video card, which in turn means you may have to replace the power supply. At what point does it stop being the computer you got from Dell?

[Ayeohx]

So let me see if I got this right...

Commlink
Commlinks do not typically have "Device Ratings" or come with built in operating systems. Because of this we can install up to a level 6 System or Firewall and simply pay the cost found on pgs 232 & 330.

Headware
Headware has a Device Rating 3. If, for whatever reason, I wish to add an upgraded Firewall to a headware component the max I can install would be a Firewall 5.

Is this correct?

[Degausser]

You just answered the reason for the +2 cap. If you go buy that base model Dell, there's only a certain amount of processors that will fit into the motherboard. If you're lucky, the computer that came with a Celeron chip, might support the Core 2 Quad. However it's not going to support the 53nm
i7 chips, which are the cutting edge at the moment.

Sure it's a means to get hackers to invest more cash into their gear, but it looks like the Devs were trying to invest some real world logic with the upgrades. I haven't had enough time to dig through my pdf as I snagged it late last night, so my opinion on the subject may change, but on a quick glance, I can understand the base intent.

If I buy an out-of-the-box Dell (assuming i can access it's innards). Then I can replace it's motherboard and CPU (it's Response) with anything that will fit.

I'm gonna try and not be snarky. I just ask that you read what you are quoting before quoting it. As for the the fact that it is 'basically' a new computer . . .

and I still have the machine's power supply, video card, DVD drive, hard disk, whatever.

I guess the big question is: does response cover only the 'CPU' (or whatever the equivelent is in 2070) or does it cover the 'motherboard' as well?

[Wasabi]

Its now half cost to upgrade equipment yourself. ["Using Hardware", SR4A pg227]

AVAIL 12: $16,500/$11,100 [cracked]
Transys Avalon Commlink (Response 4, Signal 4) [SR4A, pg328] $5000
Response 6 Chip [SR4A, pg222] $4000
Signal 6 Transmitter [SR4A, pg222] $1500
System 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300
Firewall 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300

AVAIL 16: $2500 to upgrade from the avail 12 set listed above [To get new/add'l: $19,000/$13,600 cracked]
Transys Avalon Commlink (Response 4, Signal 4) [SR4A, pg328] $5000
Response 5 Chip [SR4A, pg222] [$2000]
Signal 5 Transmitter [SR4A, pg222] $500
System 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300
Firewall 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300


[NOTE: $ = nuyen]

[Draco18s]

But if you replace the motherboard you may have to replace the ram and video card, which in turn means you may have to replace the power supply. At what point does it stop being the computer you got from Dell?

There's a reason Ford invented modular parts. I have not needed a new video card since I got my second computer (the first was a 486, so I'm not sure what slots it had). PCI slots have been standard on every motherboard made since the 1993. AGP came next as the dedicated graphics slot in 1997, and PCIe in 2004 (which is an upgraded version of the PCI slot.

I believe my computer today uses AGP for its graphics, my previous mobo used AGP as well. I expect that my next computer will ALSO offer an AGP slot.

Wanted to get a better graphics card? Sure. Needed? Depends on what I was doing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If I only used Office applications, then no.

RAM is about as standard as AGP. DDR2 SDRAM has been the standard for six years. The specifications for DDR3 debuted in 2007, but the price on chips of comparable storage capacity to current DDR2 hasn't come down to a competitive level yet. Checking New Egg for DDR3 to compare to my 2+ year old 2x2GB deal on DDR2 ram that I currently use (which is only a year or two newer than the 2x1GB deal I got). $60 from a company I've never heard of (compared to $50 for the "best match" on DDR2, DDR3's best match was $110). Ok, so it's closer than I thought, but it has been two years since I last bought RAM (the price falls always amaze me, even when I expect it--you can now get 1 terabyte hard drives for about $120: the price of my first 500 GB that I still haven't filled full of crap yet).

Technology changes fast, but standards don't.

[hobgoblin]

most new computers use pci-e for graphics cards...

[Andinel]

So if the software that you install in your commlink isn't an "upgrade," then what's the point of having that sentence in the first place?

[Draco18s]

most new computers use pci-e for graphics cards...

That's still 5 year old technology. +2 to device rating in SR is the equivalent of 18 to 36 months.

[Zurai]

That's still 5 year old technology. +2 to device rating in SR is the equivalent of 18 to 36 months.

Then a MetaLink's Response is 6 years old, which means it's very far behind the curve in hardware and a Response 6 chip you pick up at Radio Hut isn't going to fit it.

[JoelHalpern]

The thing that strikes me in this debate is that it depends very heavily on what is being upgraded, and what part of the device is not upgradeable.
In some regards, the limits make sense, in others they don't.
But some of this is inevitable in abstraction. We are not dealing separately with device power supplies, busses, and all the other intricacies. Signal upgrading is presumably alrgely a matter of power. But replacing the power supply is a lot more than replacing the wifi chip. So which does "upgrading signal" correspond to?
Similarly, while we can (and many people do) replace the CPU on a board, there are bus and power limits that affect what you can do. (Among current machines, cheaper machines come with slower busses and bus controller chips.) So is a response upgrade just a CPU upgrade or a CPU, buss, etc?
While I do not like the cap they are proposing, I can understand that with the simplifications it makes internal sense.

I just wish that they had made it an optional rule. Because it changes many of the choices, and makes many things mroe complicated in unfortunate ways, even if it makes sense.

Yours,
Joel

[Draco18s]

Oh, I agree that there needs to be a limit, but +2 is far too low.

[Wasabi]

So if the software that you install in your commlink isn't an "upgrade," then what's the point of having that sentence in the first place?

Hardware has ratings. By the OP's logic commlinks don't come with hacking or common use programs so they cant have those above rating 2.

Programs have their own rules separate from hardware.

[Zurai]

Hardware has ratings. By the OP's logic commlinks don't come with hacking or common use programs so they cant have those above rating 2.

Incorrect. A rating of "does not exist" is not the same as a rating of 0. Especially since rating 0 IS defined by the system (cyberware has a Signal of 0, frex, which is a 3m signal range).

You do have a point in that commlinks DO come with an automatic Scan rating of 1, however. Limiting all off-the-shelf comms to a Scan of 3 is a tad silly.