I was looking over making a character earlier today, and with the new updated rules for improving devices, since the highest base Firewall is 3, is it now impossible to get a Firewall of 6 on any character's commlink? Or is this an unintended change?

You have to build it from scratch, but it is possible to get it that way. No starting with FW6 any more, though.

Good question. Is the "A device's ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings." rule for the hardware portion only (the signal & response)? On pg 232 & 330 it looks like you can just buy the System and Firewall separately. Would this also work for a device other than a commlink such as a home terminal or a piece of headware?

Is the cost for a rating 6 Firewall 3000 or 2100 nuyen? I'd expect 3000, just clarifying.

Also, if I had a data terminal (Rating 3 Device) and I wanted to throw a killer firewall on it, let's say a 6, do I pay the full price (2100 or 3k depending on answer to above question) or the difference? I expect the full price...

Where does it say that building the Firewall from scratch can exceed the +2 improvement cap? I can't find that anywhere in SR4A.


I don't see why a Rating 6 Firewall would be 2100. The book pretty explicitly lists out the cost as 500 x Rating for rating up to 6. Also, I think you would have to pay the full price since it's basically changing the firewall software for something better.

Uh, because you're not improving your OS, you're making it from scratch? If there's no base rating, the base+2 rule doesn't apply. I'm talking about building the whole OS from scratch here, thus the "you can't do it at character creation".

I'm not exactly sure how this would work. What would constitute an "upgrade," then? Because the way the rules appear to me is that any increase in the values is considered an "upgrade." So unless you have a hacker friend do nothing but program a Firewall at Rating 6 for 6 months which won't be able to be patched without a lot of extra work and degrade in the meantime, you can't ever get Firewall 6? That just doesn't make much sense.

Basically, what you're saying is that I have to program the whole OS by myself to get a Firewall 6 instead of going to the store and buying a Rating 6 Firewall off the shelf, then installing it in my commlink, a difference only in the fact that programming it myself would both be time-consuming and free. Why wait 6 months to a year when I can wait a few days and get my Rating 6 Firewall from a store?

Unfortunately, under the SR4A rules, either one seems impossible, since you're limited to +2 from base attributes and the highest Firewall (or even Pilot, for drones and vehicles) is 3.

I disregard this rule, as it makes no sense whatsoever. I realize it is designed to require superhackers to buy more expensive Commlinks (thus given them an incentive to get more money.) But to me it is just stupid. If I buy an out-of-the-box Dell (assuming i can access it's innards). Then I can replace it's motherboard and CPU (it's Response) with anything that will fit, and I can replace it's Wifi Connection (Signal) with anything I want, and I still have the machine's power supply, video card, DVD drive, hard disk, whatever. Now, you need a certain amount of knowledge, and tools, to do this, which is why most people would shovel out a few extra hundred dollars for a factory-standard tricked out machine. . . because they don't know how to do that themselves (which is fine.)

Besides, hackers have enough incentives for cash. They have to buy a crap-ton of programs for one (YES, I KNOW they can make their own . . . but seriously, what shadowrunner is going to go on a several MONTH hiatus just to program his own EXPLOIT software, when he can just pay out some of the cash from his last few runs and keep in the game?) And, are they going to do that for EVERY piece of hacking software they need? How many hacking programs are there? He'd be programming till 2200!

You just answered the reason for the +2 cap. If you go buy that base model Dell, there's only a certain amount of processors that will fit into the motherboard. If you're lucky, the computer that came with a Celeron chip, might support the Core 2 Quad. However it's not going to support the 53nm
i7 chips, which are the cutting edge at the moment.

Sure it's a means to get hackers to invest more cash into their gear, but it looks like the Devs were trying to invest some real world logic with the upgrades. I haven't had enough time to dig through my pdf as I snagged it late last night, so my opinion on the subject may change, but on a quick glance, I can understand the base intent.

I can also replace the damn motherboard, can't I?

But if you build from scratch, you start with 0, so you can never go above rating 2 if you do it yourself from scratch... yes, I'm not serious.

imo, thats basically the same as getting a new machine (or at the very least building a new one from parts).

thing one should not forget about SR tho is that even back in SR2 one could burn ones own CPU (MPCP) via desktop tools.

thats the 2050's. i do not think that its become any harder to do so in the 2070's.

so when the book talks about building ones own hardware, it really means it, all the way down to the individual chips and boards...

Commlinks don't have an original Firewall rating - only Devices have, and Stock Operation Systems.

So there is no cap for Firewall and System when it comes to Commlinks, as there is no need to run a Stock Operation System.

But if you replace the motherboard you may have to replace the ram and video card, which in turn means you may have to replace the power supply. At what point does it stop being the computer you got from Dell?

So let me see if I got this right...

Commlink
Commlinks do not typically have "Device Ratings" or come with built in operating systems. Because of this we can install up to a level 6 System or Firewall and simply pay the cost found on pgs 232 & 330.

Headware
Headware has a Device Rating 3. If, for whatever reason, I wish to add an upgraded Firewall to a headware component the max I can install would be a Firewall 5.

Is this correct?

I'm gonna try and not be snarky. I just ask that you read what you are quoting before quoting it. As for the the fact that it is 'basically' a new computer . . .



I guess the big question is: does response cover only the 'CPU' (or whatever the equivelent is in 2070) or does it cover the 'motherboard' as well?

Its now half cost to upgrade equipment yourself. ["Using Hardware", SR4A pg227]

AVAIL 12: $16,500/$11,100 [cracked]
Transys Avalon Commlink (Response 4, Signal 4) [SR4A, pg328] $5000
Response 6 Chip [SR4A, pg222] $4000
Signal 6 Transmitter [SR4A, pg222] $1500
System 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300
Firewall 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300

AVAIL 16: $2500 to upgrade from the avail 12 set listed above [To get new/add'l: $19,000/$13,600 cracked]
Transys Avalon Commlink (Response 4, Signal 4) [SR4A, pg328] $5000
Response 5 Chip [SR4A, pg222] [$2000]
Signal 5 Transmitter [SR4A, pg222] $500
System 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300
Firewall 6 [SR4A, pg330] $3000 or $300


[NOTE: $ = nuyen]

There's a reason Ford invented modular parts. I have not needed a new video card since I got my second computer (the first was a 486, so I'm not sure what slots it had). PCI slots have been standard on every motherboard made since the 1993. AGP came next as the dedicated graphics slot in 1997, and PCIe in 2004 (which is an upgraded version of the PCI slot.

I believe my computer today uses AGP for its graphics, my previous mobo used AGP as well. I expect that my next computer will ALSO offer an AGP slot.

Wanted to get a better graphics card? Sure. Needed? Depends on what I was doing. If I only used Office applications, then no.

RAM is about as standard as AGP. DDR2 SDRAM has been the standard for six years. The specifications for DDR3 debuted in 2007, but the price on chips of comparable storage capacity to current DDR2 hasn't come down to a competitive level yet. Checking New Egg for DDR3 to compare to my 2+ year old 2x2GB deal on DDR2 ram that I currently use (which is only a year or two newer than the 2x1GB deal I got). $60 from a company I've never heard of (compared to $50 for the "best match" on DDR2, DDR3's best match was $110). Ok, so it's closer than I thought, but it has been two years since I last bought RAM (the price falls always amaze me, even when I expect it--you can now get 1 terabyte hard drives for about $120: the price of my first 500 GB that I still haven't filled full of crap yet).

Technology changes fast, but standards don't.

most new computers use pci-e for graphics cards...

So if the software that you install in your commlink isn't an "upgrade," then what's the point of having that sentence in the first place?

That's still 5 year old technology. +2 to device rating in SR is the equivalent of 18 to 36 months.

Then a MetaLink's Response is 6 years old, which means it's very far behind the curve in hardware and a Response 6 chip you pick up at Radio Hut isn't going to fit it.

The thing that strikes me in this debate is that it depends very heavily on what is being upgraded, and what part of the device is not upgradeable.
In some regards, the limits make sense, in others they don't.
But some of this is inevitable in abstraction. We are not dealing separately with device power supplies, busses, and all the other intricacies. Signal upgrading is presumably alrgely a matter of power. But replacing the power supply is a lot more than replacing the wifi chip. So which does "upgrading signal" correspond to?
Similarly, while we can (and many people do) replace the CPU on a board, there are bus and power limits that affect what you can do. (Among current machines, cheaper machines come with slower busses and bus controller chips.) So is a response upgrade just a CPU upgrade or a CPU, buss, etc?
While I do not like the cap they are proposing, I can understand that with the simplifications it makes internal sense.

I just wish that they had made it an optional rule. Because it changes many of the choices, and makes many things mroe complicated in unfortunate ways, even if it makes sense.

Yours,
Joel

Oh, I agree that there needs to be a limit, but +2 is far too low.

Hardware has ratings. By the OP's logic commlinks don't come with hacking or common use programs so they cant have those above rating 2.

Programs have their own rules separate from hardware.

Incorrect. A rating of "does not exist" is not the same as a rating of 0. Especially since rating 0 IS defined by the system (cyberware has a Signal of 0, frex, which is a 3m signal range).

You do have a point in that commlinks DO come with an automatic Scan rating of 1, however. Limiting all off-the-shelf comms to a Scan of 3 is a tad silly.

Programs have their own rules separate from hardware.

Yes, but they ARE limited by Response, which is hardware.

Ok so question in order to have a commlink in the game now you must buy one of the per-made commlinks in the book?

Which you can then upgrade if your so inclined but only by +2 to any of the attributes said commlink comes with when you bought it?

There is no option to make your own case and then buy/program your own response/signal/firewall/System at say the normal cap at character creation of 6's and thus have a commlink that in the future will only ever be able to hit 8's max? (Mind you to get a level 6 in response/signal at character creation would require the use of the restricted gear quality twice)

As soon as your headware is Alphaware, though, you got a Device Rating of 4 and are thus cleared for Firewall 6. (If said headware is Deltaware, write your own Firewall 8.)

Pretty much - you'll see most people with a Transys Avalon, then.

Nope. Modern Motherboards Don't support AGP. It has been superseded by PCI-e. You can't get top of the line Graphics cards for AGP anymore, due to limits of the hardware.

I'm still having an issue with this.

Can I just pay $6000 for a System & Firewall of 6?

This line " A device's ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings" seems to imply that I can only upgrade my home terminal's firewall to a rating 5 (a home terminal is a rating 3 device). If I can install a Firewall 6 on my wee Commlink why not my home terminal? Isn't it just software? What would make a Commlink different from a home terminal in this case?

The whole "only a +2 upgrade to hardware" is complete bovine feces! Why? What purpose does it serve in the game? If Synner or someone else can come here and explain this I would be happy.

My point exactly in starting this thread. If you look at the book, the highest stock Firewall is 3. If anything that raises the firewall is considered an "upgrade," including programming your own OS, then it is impossible to get a Firewall at anything higher than 5 by RAW. Maybe there should be a clarification for what "upgrade" means, or maybe it should just be dropped for software entirely.

Just a Commlink does not originally have a Stock OS and thus no original Firewall Attribute, and as the upgrade cap is tied to the device, it's not affected.

Or maybe this rule should just be ignored. It brakes more than it fixes. Is hard to work out what it means. I personaly would try to get every GM to drop the rule. I would just make rating 6 more expencive if sovle this problem. Look what it's done to some drones. Then what about the myistical rating 7+ stuff that can be found if with a lot of work. Not much point as well only one link can use rating 7 iirc.

Well, as I understand it, Response is everything that the equipments operating speed is based off of. So, the real-world equivalent of a Response Chip would be the CPU, Memory, Video Memory, & (to a lesser extend) Motherboard and HDD. That is for the "average" PC.

In other words, I fully agree this restriction is retarded, from a 'realistic' standpoint, and gameplay standpoint.

Because it was significantly cheaper to buy a Metalink for 100 then upgrade it than to start with the best Commlink and upgrade from there. That never made sense to me.

It makes perfect sense. It has to do with commercialism and the "Look at me! I've got a lot of money!" effect.

Here's a real world example: Why spend $100 for a pair of Levi jeans, when you can go into <insert name of discount shopping center> and buy a pair of no-name jeans for $10 to $15? The jeans do exactly the same thing only the Levi brand has their logo on your ass and therefore lets people know you spent a lot of money for them.

Here's another Real World example: Why buy a Dell XPS system when you can order the parts and make a machine more powerful and half the price of the Dell? Hell, if you can't put the heat sink on CPU, you can take it to a computer store and they can do it for you for $50. Everything else is plug and play.

Not the same at all. A more accurate comparison:

Why buy a top-end $2000 Dell laptop when you can buy a $200 Dell laptop and upgrade all the components so they do the same thing, but for less money?

Why? Because you can't upgrade all the components so they do the same thing. A cheap laptop like that is going to have integrated sound, integrated video, a crappy system bus, a proprietary motherboard, and so on. You'll be lucky if you can upgrade ANYTHING in it, let alone EVERYTHING.

MetaLinks are the equivalent of those $200 Dell laptops. They're pieces of crap made for those who don't give a damn that they can't be upgraded to be useful.

A laptop isn't meant to be seriously upgraded. Commlinks have pages of rules dedicated to upgrading them. It makes no sense to put out all these upgrade rules, then say: "Nyah Nyah, you can't use them!"

I'm sorry Zurai, commlinks are NOT like laptops. The fact that you can upgrade a commlink indicates that a 'Link is modular and therefore can be upgraded in piecemeal. Also what about the idea that you can put together a 'Link from off the shelf components? Kinda like my competitor machine example.

==============================================

Now what does everyone think about cyber commlinks? Do those come premade or are they assembled for each customer individually? Also would getting Alpha or better grade make it easier to max them out?

Laptops can be upgraded piecemeal. I have a friend whose laptop only contains the motherboard, power supply, and case from the original. The CPU, RAM, video card, sound card, hard drive, and optical drive have all been replaced over time.

And how much work did it take for him to do this? With a desktop machine it's the work of maybe 3 to 5 minutes, for your friend, it most likely took him at least 10 to 20 minutes because he had to solder the components himself.

Most of them will still allow you to swap CPU, RAM and Storage, was well as WLAN/WAN.

You can use them, in fact - just not upgrade any device to any rating.

Sure, they are more like an iPhone - be happy that you are allow to upgrade at all.

can you upgrade the video card?



Actually, they're more like ultra compact desktops in their modularity.

@ Everyone: My question for everyone: Are cyber commlinks custom made for each customer, or is there a stock cyber commlink. What about an Alpha grade or better cyber commlink? Are they custom made for each customer?

Sometimes you can, future CPUs will have the GPU integrated.

Not really.

RAW requires you to select a normal model equivalent.

As a Commlink doesn't have a Device Rating, grade doesn't matter.

What does that have to do with anything? The rules don't say how long it takes to exchange parts in a commlink. As commlinks are, essentially, ultra-miniaturized laptops, it makes far more sense that you have to spend some time switching tiny components around in a very packed case.

And no, there was no soldering involved. I have no clue where that bit of randomness came from. Way out beyond left field. It DID take quite a while for some of the components, purely because laptops are extremely compact and all the components are layered in and around each other, so you have to basically disassemble the whole thing to get at the deepest components. Other components like the optical drive and hard drive are literally plug-and-play, 10 second mods.

We have no idea of how electronics and computer hardware work in 2070. We don't know what anti-tamper systems there might be, we don't know how open the specifications are... So stop arguing over this!

The only thing we know is that anyone can buy components (IIRC they aren't restricted) - components of unknown nature (full boards or separate components? We don't know) - and people with hardware skills can install them in existing commlinks.

the video and sound is the most interesting things, as it will highly depend on how the thing is designed internally, and how available replacement parts are. both can be on-board parts, or they can be on seperate cards with some kind of cable or port connecting them to the motherboard.

then there is things like cooling to deal with...

i know nvidia have been trying to push a kind of card standard for laptop video, but i dont know how much use it has.

laptops may used pci-e, usb and sata internally, but the connectors can be odd ones to say the least...

Yeah, most laptops these days have integrated sound (not that integrated sound is a bad thing - there's not really any performance difference between integrated and separate any more). And yes, some laptops are much more difficult to upgrade than others. Apple, I'm looking at you.

That just proves my point, though. There's only so much that's possible to upgrade on low-end equipment, and even the high-end stuff has a ceiling (usually, as you mentioned, based on cooling issues - laptops have very serious issues with heat that desktops don't because of how close all the components are to each other, especially the hard drive).