Dual Wielding, How to effectively duel wield Options

[Gunslinger057]

I'm making an adept, and was just wondering how to effectively dual wield pistols. The rules for dual-wielding are a bit vague, so I have a few questions. First, are specializations considered modifications to a dice pool, or just a part of the dice pool as a whole. In other words, if I'm dual wielding SA pistols with a pistol skill 4 and an AGI 4, do I get 5 dice per pistol or 6 dice ((4+4+2)/2 or (4+4)/2+2)?

Also, what is an acceptable pool for dual-wielding. I currently stand at AGI 7, pistols 5, spec. SA pistols, smartlinks (which are nullified by dual-wielding anyways), imp skill pistols 3, reflex recorder pistols. So a grand total of 18 dice, or 9 dice per hand, if I'm doing the adding correctly. Am I adding this up right? Are the reflex recorder, the specialization, and the improved skill pistols modifiers, or treated as part of the overall unmodified dice pool?

Thanks in advance for all responses!

[Draco18s]

I believe specilizations are added after the split.

[Neraph]

Dual wielding shouldn't be done; the game hates it too much (like close combat). You can't get laser sight/smartlink bonuses, you have to split your pool... It's honestly not worth it.

However, if you feel you must, I would suggest putting only 1 die on one hand, and the rest on the other. You fire 2 times with your craphand (lowering their defense pool), then take them out with your good hand. Or get SMG/Machine Pistols and suppresive fire with both weapons - no attack roll required.

In other words, if I'm dual wielding SA pistols with a pistol skill 4 and an AGI 4, do I get 5 dice per pistol or 6 dice ((4+4+2)/2 or (4+4)/2+2)?

You've actually only got a dicepool of 8, 10 with the spec, so each hand would only get 5. Or, as I suggested, one hand would get 1, the other would get 9, and they'd be recieving a -2/-3 defense pool against the shots that matter. Not including things like wide bursts.

[Draco18s]

You've actually only got a dicepool of 8, 10 with the spec, so each hand would only get 5. Or, as I suggested, one hand would get 1, the other would get 9, and they'd be recieving a -2/-3 defense pool against the shots that matter. Not including things like wide bursts.

I've read elsewhere on the forums that specilizations are AFTER the split. For instance, one (or two) different specs for two different guns. How would you treat that?

Either way, I've never looked it up in the book because I've never had a dual wield character.

[Neraph]

Excellent point. The only dual-wielding character I'd make is a close combat one, and even then it's a misnomer. I'd wield 2 weapons, yes, but only attack with one, using Two Weapon Style maneuver to always be able to declare a Full Parry, and still get my full dicepool to attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wasabi]

Its only worthwhile IMO with Adept Centering or if you really want to impose -1 Reaction penalties twice as quickly so the shooter going after you can land HIS shots better.

Joe: (Brrrat!Brrrat!Brrrat!Brrrat!) "Get him, LOU!"
Lou: I spend an Edge...

[WeaverMount]

If you want a dual weilder for flavor you don't split your DP. You use two SMGs and fire them in sequence(first simple action -> long burst from right hand, second simple action long burst from left hand). Recoil doesn't stack, recoild mods do. Smart-link still works IMO, but there are non-retarded arguments to the contrary. If your GM says no smart-links get tracers.

[Draco18s]

Smart-link still works IMO

IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.

[Wasabi]

With a name like "WeaverMount" he HAS to be right!

/smirk
(and well posted, sir!)

[Wasabi]

IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.

He's only using one weapon per action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Gunslinger057]

Another question. Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?

[Wasabi]

My understanding is that everything adds to the pool unless explicitly stated otherwise. Recoil modifiers apply twice so can be offset individually by abilities that offset ALL recoil. [Adept Centering]
This means Improved Skill adds to each pool (you only get one though) as well as anything else that adds to skill.

[Draco18s]

Adept Centering reduces negative DP modifiers from wounds I thought. Can't look it up at the moment though.

[Wasabi]

Nope, SM p53: "reduce negative dice pool modifiers to Physical and Combat skills by her initiate grade" is all it says about what it can be used for

[And thats unchanged in SR4A p198]

[Jaid]

improved skill improves the skill (unsurprisingly) not the dicepool. assume you meant improve ability, that is. as such, it is part of the 'divide by 2' stuff.

[Draco18s]

Ah ha, good catch. Better than I thought it was, and it was AWESOME for what I thought it was. Coolio, now I can fire twice with no penalty (was -0 (+1 aim) then -1).

[Dakka Dakka]

IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.

It might be RAI but definitely not RAW. you use your first simple action to fire the first weapon (even a long burst) with the smartlink bonus, then use your free action to switch a wireless device (weapon a to weapon b), and use your second simple action to fire the second firearm again with the smartlink bonus.

The specialization bonus is added after the split, if you want to use two weapons in one action.

Split the pool before applying modifiers.

Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?

According to the Errata both add to the skill rating and thus are added before the split.

[Muspellsheimr]

Also, what is an acceptable pool for dual-wielding. I currently stand at AGI 7, pistols 5, spec. SA pistols, smartlinks (which are nullified by dual-wielding anyways), imp skill pistols 3, reflex recorder pistols. So a grand total of 18 dice, or 9 dice per hand, if I'm doing the adding correctly. Am I adding this up right? Are the reflex recorder, the specialization, and the improved skill pistols modifiers, or treated as part of the overall unmodified dice pool?

Augmented maximum skill is 1.5x current rating, so a level of Improved Ability & your Reflex Recorders are doing nothing. Your total dice pool (before split) is 18.

Modifiers are applied after split, so your total dice pools are (assuming even split) 9/9.

[Medicineman]

Another question. Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?

Specialisation after the Split(its a Modifier), So Draco 18 was right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Ki-Power improved Skill and Reflexrecorder before the Split(they Raise the modified Skill as Part of the Pool)
If You use two Weapons after another ,switching Smartlink is a Free action and can be done, so first simple Action right MP(with Smart and complete Pool) second simple Action Left MP (also with complete Pool and Smart)
only AKIMBO Firing (so you have 2x2 simple Actions) is rightfully restricted

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

*points to to his previous post and does a double dance with medicineman*

[InfinityzeN]

Actually his total dice pool before the split is only 14 (or 16 if you say Specialization is added before the split).

AGL: 7
Pistols: 5 (7) [5+ 3 Improved Skill + 1 Reflex Recorder, capped at (7)]
Smartgun: 0 [can not use for split pool duel wielding]

[Dakka Dakka]

Hmm normally 5*1.5=7.5. Since there is AFAIK no mentioning of rounding down in the paragraph about modified skill ratings, the value is rounded normally to 8. So the adept can get improved ability 3 or improved ability 2 and the reflex recorder. Which adds up to a pool of 15 and a split pool of 10/9 if the used weapons both are of the specialized type.

Again the specialization is a modifier and thus is added after the split by RAW.

[TBRMInsanity]

To effectively dual wield you would need to do the following:

• Take amedexterious quality (eliminates the off-hand penalty)
• Get smartlink, recoil comp, etc (to increase your chances to hit and reduce your penalties
• Specialize in one weapon that your dual wielding with (give you more dice)

That being said you should only dual wield if your in a tight spot. It is ok for suppressive fire, blind fire, etc. In these situations your not looking to hit anyone just put as many rounds down range as you can (causing your enemy to take cover). Make that known to the GM when your doing this so he/she doesn't just have all the NPCs stand around like idiots.

[raphabonelli]

I've discovered that AKIMBO is really hard after trying to play Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles on Wii using two WiiRemotes at the same time. Even if you just want to point both in the same direction, it's really hard to coordinate then. I guess that AKIMBO on Hollywood movies (like Nicolas Cage on FaceOff) is just fantasy.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I've discovered that AKIMBO is really hard after trying to play Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles on Wii using two WiiRemotes at the same time. Even if you just want to point both in the same direction, it's really hard to coordinate then. I guess that AKIMBO on Hollywood movies (like Nicolas Cage on FaceOff) is just fantasy.

'
wait, what are we playing again.