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Gunslinger057
I'm making an adept, and was just wondering how to effectively dual wield pistols. The rules for dual-wielding are a bit vague, so I have a few questions. First, are specializations considered modifications to a dice pool, or just a part of the dice pool as a whole. In other words, if I'm dual wielding SA pistols with a pistol skill 4 and an AGI 4, do I get 5 dice per pistol or 6 dice ((4+4+2)/2 or (4+4)/2+2)?

Also, what is an acceptable pool for dual-wielding. I currently stand at AGI 7, pistols 5, spec. SA pistols, smartlinks (which are nullified by dual-wielding anyways), imp skill pistols 3, reflex recorder pistols. So a grand total of 18 dice, or 9 dice per hand, if I'm doing the adding correctly. Am I adding this up right? Are the reflex recorder, the specialization, and the improved skill pistols modifiers, or treated as part of the overall unmodified dice pool?

Thanks in advance for all responses!
Draco18s
I believe specilizations are added after the split.
Neraph
Dual wielding shouldn't be done; the game hates it too much (like close combat). You can't get laser sight/smartlink bonuses, you have to split your pool... It's honestly not worth it.

However, if you feel you must, I would suggest putting only 1 die on one hand, and the rest on the other. You fire 2 times with your craphand (lowering their defense pool), then take them out with your good hand. Or get SMG/Machine Pistols and suppresive fire with both weapons - no attack roll required.

QUOTE
In other words, if I'm dual wielding SA pistols with a pistol skill 4 and an AGI 4, do I get 5 dice per pistol or 6 dice ((4+4+2)/2 or (4+4)/2+2)?

You've actually only got a dicepool of 8, 10 with the spec, so each hand would only get 5. Or, as I suggested, one hand would get 1, the other would get 9, and they'd be recieving a -2/-3 defense pool against the shots that matter. Not including things like wide bursts.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 16 2009, 10:08 PM) *
You've actually only got a dicepool of 8, 10 with the spec, so each hand would only get 5. Or, as I suggested, one hand would get 1, the other would get 9, and they'd be recieving a -2/-3 defense pool against the shots that matter. Not including things like wide bursts.


I've read elsewhere on the forums that specilizations are AFTER the split. For instance, one (or two) different specs for two different guns. How would you treat that?

Either way, I've never looked it up in the book because I've never had a dual wield character.
Neraph
Excellent point. The only dual-wielding character I'd make is a close combat one, and even then it's a misnomer. I'd wield 2 weapons, yes, but only attack with one, using Two Weapon Style maneuver to always be able to declare a Full Parry, and still get my full dicepool to attack. smile.gif
Wasabi
Its only worthwhile IMO with Adept Centering or if you really want to impose -1 Reaction penalties twice as quickly so the shooter going after you can land HIS shots better.

Joe: (Brrrat!Brrrat!Brrrat!Brrrat!) "Get him, LOU!"
Lou: I spend an Edge...
WeaverMount
If you want a dual weilder for flavor you don't split your DP. You use two SMGs and fire them in sequence(first simple action -> long burst from right hand, second simple action long burst from left hand). Recoil doesn't stack, recoild mods do. Smart-link still works IMO, but there are non-retarded arguments to the contrary. If your GM says no smart-links get tracers.
Draco18s
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 16 2009, 10:32 PM) *
Smart-link still works IMO


IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.
Wasabi
With a name like "WeaverMount" he HAS to be right!

/smirk
(and well posted, sir!)
Wasabi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 16 2009, 10:38 PM) *
IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.


He's only using one weapon per action. smile.gif
Gunslinger057
Another question. Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?
Wasabi
My understanding is that everything adds to the pool unless explicitly stated otherwise. Recoil modifiers apply twice so can be offset individually by abilities that offset ALL recoil. [Adept Centering]
This means Improved Skill adds to each pool (you only get one though) as well as anything else that adds to skill.
Draco18s
Adept Centering reduces negative DP modifiers from wounds I thought. Can't look it up at the moment though.
Wasabi
Nope, SM p53: "reduce negative dice pool modifiers to Physical and Combat skills by her initiate grade" is all it says about what it can be used for

[And thats unchanged in SR4A p198]
Jaid
improved skill improves the skill (unsurprisingly) not the dicepool. assume you meant improve ability, that is. as such, it is part of the 'divide by 2' stuff.
Draco18s
Ah ha, good catch. Better than I thought it was, and it was AWESOME for what I thought it was. Coolio, now I can fire twice with no penalty (was -0 (+1 aim) then -1).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE ('Draco18s')
IIRC, by RAW (or RAI) you can only take advantage of SmartKLink/Laser Sight for one weapon.
It might be RAI but definitely not RAW. you use your first simple action to fire the first weapon (even a long burst) with the smartlink bonus, then use your free action to switch a wireless device (weapon a to weapon b), and use your second simple action to fire the second firearm again with the smartlink bonus.

The specialization bonus is added after the split, if you want to use two weapons in one action.
QUOTE ('BBB p. 141')
Split the pool before applying modifiers.

QUOTE ('Gunslinger057')
Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?
According to the Errata both add to the skill rating and thus are added before the split.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Gunslinger057 @ Mar 16 2009, 08:54 PM) *
Also, what is an acceptable pool for dual-wielding. I currently stand at AGI 7, pistols 5, spec. SA pistols, smartlinks (which are nullified by dual-wielding anyways), imp skill pistols 3, reflex recorder pistols. So a grand total of 18 dice, or 9 dice per hand, if I'm doing the adding correctly. Am I adding this up right? Are the reflex recorder, the specialization, and the improved skill pistols modifiers, or treated as part of the overall unmodified dice pool?

Augmented maximum skill is 1.5x current rating, so a level of Improved Ability & your Reflex Recorders are doing nothing. Your total dice pool (before split) is 18.

Modifiers are applied after split, so your total dice pools are (assuming even split) 9/9.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Gunslinger057 @ Mar 16 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Another question. Do improved skill (pistols) and reflex recorder (pistols) count as modifiers to be added to the split dice pool, or are they added in before the split?

Specialisation after the Split(its a Modifier), So Draco 18 was right wink.gif
Ki-Power improved Skill and Reflexrecorder before the Split(they Raise the modified Skill as Part of the Pool)
If You use two Weapons after another ,switching Smartlink is a Free action and can be done, so first simple Action right MP(with Smart and complete Pool) second simple Action Left MP (also with complete Pool and Smart)
only AKIMBO Firing (so you have 2x2 simple Actions) is rightfully restricted

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman
Dakka Dakka
*points to to his previous post and does a double dance with medicineman*
InfinityzeN
Actually his total dice pool before the split is only 14 (or 16 if you say Specialization is added before the split).

AGL: 7
Pistols: 5 (7) [5+ 3 Improved Skill + 1 Reflex Recorder, capped at (7)]
Smartgun: 0 [can not use for split pool duel wielding]
Dakka Dakka
Hmm normally 5*1.5=7.5. Since there is AFAIK no mentioning of rounding down in the paragraph about modified skill ratings, the value is rounded normally to 8. So the adept can get improved ability 3 or improved ability 2 and the reflex recorder. Which adds up to a pool of 15 and a split pool of 10/9 if the used weapons both are of the specialized type.

Again the specialization is a modifier and thus is added after the split by RAW.
TBRMInsanity
To effectively dual wield you would need to do the following:
  • Take amedexterious quality (eliminates the off-hand penalty)
  • Get smartlink, recoil comp, etc (to increase your chances to hit and reduce your penalties
  • Specialize in one weapon that your dual wielding with (give you more dice)
That being said you should only dual wield if your in a tight spot. It is ok for suppressive fire, blind fire, etc. In these situations your not looking to hit anyone just put as many rounds down range as you can (causing your enemy to take cover). Make that known to the GM when your doing this so he/she doesn't just have all the NPCs stand around like idiots.
raphabonelli
I've discovered that AKIMBO is really hard after trying to play Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles on Wii using two WiiRemotes at the same time. Even if you just want to point both in the same direction, it's really hard to coordinate then. I guess that AKIMBO on Hollywood movies (like Nicolas Cage on FaceOff) is just fantasy.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (raphabonelli @ Mar 17 2009, 10:47 AM) *
I've discovered that AKIMBO is really hard after trying to play Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles on Wii using two WiiRemotes at the same time. Even if you just want to point both in the same direction, it's really hard to coordinate then. I guess that AKIMBO on Hollywood movies (like Nicolas Cage on FaceOff) is just fantasy.

'
wait, what are we playing again.
raphabonelli
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Mar 17 2009, 11:54 AM) *
'
wait, what are we playing again.


Even with elves, dwarves, magics and dragons, Shadowrun rules tries, at least a little, to simulate reality as we know it. Shadowrun approach to the rules are different from, let's say, D&D approach to the rules.
The Jopp
Changeling 3
Ambidexterity X3
Shiva Arms X2
Agility: 6
Automatics: 6 (SMG’s +2)
Second Hand Muscle Toner +3
Reflex Recorder: Firearms +1

Dicepool: 6+6+3+1: 16D6
Specialization: +2D6

Split by 6: 16/6: 2,66D6 (Round up to 3D6)
Add Specialization +2D6

Get X6 SMGs with FA option.

Give covering fire with 5D6 X6 and let the lead fly.
ornot
There was a PC in my game that fired pistols akimbo. He was good enough to hit most grunts and if he was lucky he could drop them with only one bullet. Even if he wasn't that lucky, they would usually be heavily wounded (and since they were grunts with low professional ratings, they'd be running away). Multiply his 4 bullets per IP by his WR, and he was able to dispose of 12 grunts per turn. Vs tougher opponents he would use just the one pistol for improved accuracy. This guy was made using RAW from the BBB only, and wasn't even twinked out (much).

It is eminently doable, but how useful it is depends on the kind of opposition the GM is throwing at you.

Personally I wouldn't allow the 1 die, 9 dice split - or at least the intended outcome. I'd only impose a defense penalty if the defender had actually needed to make a reaction test to negate a hit. Hence the 1 die attack would only make the second shot more likely to hit if you got lucky with that first test. And your second shot is affected by any uncompensated recoil from the first one (easily accounted for by improving your gear).
Rasumichin
Actually, the best way to fire guns akimbo in SR4 would be being a mystic adept (yes, even they have a use!).
It's all about getting bonus dice instead of pouring tons of BP into pumping up your base DP.

And the best way to get bonus dice for firearms tests is the enhance aim spell.

Combine that with Adept Centering (and probably that adept power from Digital Grimoire) to decrease penalties for multiple targets, get a posession based tradition and channeling to up your AGI to insane levels and load up on the usual stuff such as Muscle Toner (and/or the Improved Agility spell) and Improved Ability and after a couple of initiations you might actually achieve impressive results with this approach.

Also, the Atunement metamagic might be handy.
Only one weapon can benefit from it, but unlike smartlinks, it is compatible with real dual wielding.

I must admit that i haven't fully checked out the math, so it may still be more interesting to stick with only two shots per round, but i think it might work out with this approach.
The Jopp
Well, a F12 Analyze Device (Your Gun) should work too.

Lets assume 6 successes and a -2 sustaining penalty.

You now have +4D6 to your dicepool.

Depending on your view of the spell this is something that is used one ONE specifik gun or spread out over several guns of the same type.
Medicineman
Rasumichin
If you calculate the Monster ,dont forget to count in Tracer Ammo wink.gif

@The Jopp
Change MPs with the MGL6 Grenny Lnchr Pistol wink.gif

with a wink.gif dance
Medicineman
EvilP
I once made a Hong-Kong akimbo gunfighter NPC as an experiment. Then a guest player turned up just before the session and I lent him the charsheets for a character who rolled something 15 dice split between two SMGs.

Ther verdict is as follows:

1) He slaughtered many grunts in one combat turn

2) We had to make far too many rolls! That's 2 guns with 7 and 8 dice each, then two reaction rolls, then (maybe) 2 damage soak rolls. Then came his second simple action where you do it again with modifiers on top! When two more initiative passes were added on that it really took the excitement out of combat and probably left a really terrible impression of Shadowrun on this new player.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 17 2009, 10:26 AM) *
Well, a F12 Analyze Device (Your Gun) should work too.

Lets assume 6 successes and a -2 sustaining penalty.

You now have +4D6 to your dicepool.

Depending on your view of the spell this is something that is used one ONE specifik gun or spread out over several guns of the same type.


WHAT!!! You can't use Analyze Device to give you a bonus in combat! It gives you an understanding of how the device works but it isn't going to make you a better shooter.

Bah!!!!
ReverendMo
Another option for dual-wielding ranged weapons, though frightfully expensive in some cases and not directly adept-friendly, is gun-drones. I'm currently playing a character who uses two heavily-modified pistols with pilot upgrades and such, treating them as drones for IP and dice. No immediate SmartLink bonuses, but a technomancer could, with GM approval, compile machine sprites with the SmartLink complex form, them then getting those bonuses.

Just food for thought.
InfinityzeN
QUOTE (ReverendMo @ Mar 17 2009, 01:25 PM) *
Another option for dual-wielding ranged weapons, though frightfully expensive in some cases and not directly adept-friendly, is gun-drones. I'm currently playing a character who uses two heavily-modified pistols with pilot upgrades and such, treating them as drones for IP and dice. No immediate SmartLink bonuses, but a technomancer could, with GM approval, compile machine sprites with the SmartLink complex form, them then getting those bonuses.

Just food for thought.

That... that is just... just so EVIL! I like! Will have to build one and see how it comes out.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (ReverendMo @ Mar 17 2009, 11:25 AM) *
Another option for dual-wielding ranged weapons, though frightfully expensive in some cases and not directly adept-friendly, is gun-drones. I'm currently playing a character who uses two heavily-modified pistols with pilot upgrades and such, treating them as drones for IP and dice. No immediate SmartLink bonuses, but a technomancer could, with GM approval, compile machine sprites with the SmartLink complex form, them then getting those bonuses.


Screw the smarklink complex form, just make them total drone with autosofts (targeting, pilot). Then they would just fire on their own.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 17 2009, 07:18 AM) *
Actually his total dice pool before the split is only 14 (or 16 if you say Specialization is added before the split).

AGL: 7
Pistols: 5 (7) [5+ 3 Improved Skill + 1 Reflex Recorder, capped at (7)]
Smartgun: 0 [can not use for split pool duel wielding]

Lets see...
Agility 7 + Skill 7 + 2 Specialization + 2 Smartlink = 18 Dice (before split)
[(Agility 7 + Skill 7) / 2] + 2 Specialization + 0 Smartlink - 9 Dice (after split)

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 17 2009, 10:26 AM) *
Well, a F12 Analyze Device (Your Gun) should work too.

Lets assume 6 successes and a -2 sustaining penalty.

You now have +4D6 to your dicepool.

Depending on your view of the spell this is something that is used one ONE specifik gun or spread out over several guns of the same type.

Lets assume you are playing by SR4 RAW - 3 of your 6 Hits go towards beating OR, so you have a net of +3, with a -2 Sustaining, or +1 overall modifier.
Now lets assume you are playing by SR4A RAW - 4 of your 6 Hits go towards beating OR, so you have a net of +0, with a -2 Sustaining, or +0 overall modifier.

This is, of course, assuming that you can reliably get 6 Hits to begin with. And your GM considers guns a step below drones for OR (I know some would put the two at the same level).
Mx
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 17 2009, 11:43 AM) *
If You use two Weapons after another ,switching Smartlink is a Free action and can be done, so first simple Action right MP(with Smart and complete Pool) second simple Action Left MP (also with complete Pool and Smart)
only AKIMBO Firing (so you have 2x2 simple Actions) is rightfully restricted

Where is that in the rules.

How would you guys handle akimbo firing when the characters hands have different Agility scores.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 17 2009, 09:24 PM) *
Where is that in the rules.
BBB p. 136 Fire Weapon, p. 135 Change Linked Device Mode, again Fire Weapon.

QUOTE
How would you guys handle akimbo firing when the characters hands have different Agility scores.
I'd apply the same rule as for using different skills.
The Jake
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 17 2009, 02:49 PM) *
Hmm normally 5*1.5=7.5. Since there is AFAIK no mentioning of rounding down in the paragraph about modified skill ratings, the value is rounded normally to 8. So the adept can get improved ability 3 or improved ability 2 and the reflex recorder. Which adds up to a pool of 15 and a split pool of 10/9 if the used weapons both are of the specialized type.

Again the specialization is a modifier and thus is added after the split by RAW.


If I have a weapon skill of 5, specialised, thats +2 dice. Doesn't the +2 factor into the total skill rating?

That would mean the maximum skill is 7. 7x1.5=10.5 or 11 (rounding up). That would mean the highest bonus dice pool would be four dice.

E.g. the improved ability 4 or improved 3 + reflex recorder.

Or doesn't the specialisation count?

- J.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 17 2009, 05:30 PM) *
Rasumichin
If you calculate the Monster ,dont forget to count in Tracer Ammo wink.gif


Oh right, there was something...don't think i'm going to stat this out soon, though.
There's so many possible variables, you can hardly give a fixed amount for the DP that monster would bring to the table.
Depending on initiate grade, Force of the spirit involved, spellcasting skills and so on...but it would work, i think.
Another possible end of level monstrosity to throw at unsuspecting players grinbig.gif

QUOTE (ReverendMo @ Mar 17 2009, 06:25 PM) *
Another option for dual-wielding ranged weapons, though frightfully expensive in some cases and not directly adept-friendly, is gun-drones. I'm currently playing a character who uses two heavily-modified pistols with pilot upgrades and such, treating them as drones for IP and dice. No immediate SmartLink bonuses, but a technomancer could, with GM approval, compile machine sprites with the SmartLink complex form, them then getting those bonuses.

Just food for thought.


That's what cyberlimb weapon mounts are for.
Bring your own suppressive fire!

QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 18 2009, 01:52 AM) *
If I have a weapon skill of 5, specialised, thats +2 dice. Doesn't the +2 factor into the total skill rating?


No, it is said in the FAQ that it is a DP bonus and therefore factored in after the split.

QUOTE
That would mean the maximum skill is 7. 7x1.5=10.5 or 11 (rounding up). That would mean the highest bonus dice pool would be four dice.

E.g. the improved ability 4 or improved 3 + reflex recorder.

Or doesn't the specialisation count?

- J.


I'm not 100% sure, but i think you round down in that case.
And the DP bonus isn't capped at all, it is just the increase of the skill itself which is capped at 3 or 4 dice.
This only applies to Improved Ability and Reflex Recorders, all other means available here do not count as an increase of the skill itself (in fact, the only other example besides those two are a couple of qualities from RC, but none of them would matter here).
The Jake
Is it just me or does anyone think that dice caps on magical/augmented abilities is just silly?

- J.
Draco18s
QUOTE (ReverendMo @ Mar 17 2009, 12:25 PM) *
Another option for dual-wielding ranged weapons, though frightfully expensive in some cases and not directly adept-friendly, is gun-drones. I'm currently playing a character who uses two heavily-modified pistols with pilot upgrades and such, treating them as drones for IP and dice. No immediate SmartLink bonuses, but a technomancer could, with GM approval, compile machine sprites with the SmartLink complex form, them then getting those bonuses.

Just food for thought.


I've (ok me and my group) already thought of that. It's an elf rigger who rigs his own arms. And legs. And head/eyes. I named him Tinker Toy.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 17 2009, 08:57 PM) *
Is it just me or does anyone think that dice caps on magical/augmented abilities is just silly?

- J.


I think skill caps are silly, and the caps they have on magical/augmented abilities even sillier.
Mx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 18 2009, 01:54 AM) *
BBB p. 136 Fire Weapon, p. 135 Change Linked Device Mode, again Fire Weapon.

THose say nothing about you having to take free action to switch smartlink if you use two Weapons after another.
Muspellsheimr
There is no rule as far as I am aware against running two Smartlinks - only using them when splitting your pool for two-weapon combat.
Dakka Dakka
The free action is just for a GM who might rule that only one weapon may b connected to the smartlink computer at any given time.
Mx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 18 2009, 08:49 AM) *
The free action is just for a GM who might rule that only one weapon may b connected to the smartlink computer at any given time.

OK, i was starting to think that there was some kind of rule for tat, that i had missed.
ornot
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 18 2009, 04:23 AM) *
I've (ok me and my group) already thought of that. It's an elf rigger who rigs his own arms. And legs. And head/eyes. I named him Tinker Toy.

you want to be careful going down that path. You'll wind up with folk refusing to pay essence for cyber limbs "since they're just drones". Pretty soon you'll have de facto jarheads without the drawbacks.
Draco18s
QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 18 2009, 08:04 AM) *
you want to be careful going down that path. You'll wind up with folk refusing to pay essence for cyber limbs "since they're just drones". Pretty soon you'll have de facto jarheads without the drawbacks.


Nono, they're modular cyberlimbs with the Drone modification.
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