Replace the Samurai Challenge, Hermit backs up his claims... Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

I agree on these points. I don't think it should be much of an option for mages to get cyberware and then go ahead and re increase their magic score.

I also dislike the wording of initiation and raising magic scores. It should definitely have a limit (the mag score, not initiating).

I actually don't have a problem with unlimited magic stats. The main reason being I think its too small of a % of games that will last long enough to make this a difference. Meanwhile it adds some cool fluff for NPCs kind of like a magical version of a cyberzombie. Instead of more cybered up than they should be its more magiced up than they should be. Which actually makes me think what might be cool is if it did have a cap, a cap which could be exceeded if you performed a ritual of some kind, and it had lasting negative consequences on you. So really the cap would only be for NPCs, kind of how I view cyberzombies.

If I were in a game that was lasting long enough that this looked like it was an issue, I'd just talk with the player and ask them to stop raising the magic score. I suspect 5th ediiton would be out by then anyways so we'd be starting over again.

[Octopiii]

So, here's my shot at replacing a Samurai with a completely uncybered mage. Let it never be said that people complaining on the internet cannot effect change (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[ Spoiler ]

Superior Firepower
Male Ork (20bp)
B: 8
A: 2
R: 5
S: 3
C: 2
I: 5
L: 2
W: 5
(190bp)
E: 1
M: 5
(40bp)

Skills:
Spellcasting (combat) 6
Counterspelling: 4
Summoning: 4
Perception: 4
Outdoors Grp: 1
(84bp)

Qualities:
Magician 15
Mentor Spirit 5
Allergy +15
Uneducated +20
(+15 bp)

Spells:
Stunbolt
Stunball
Powerbolt
Levitate
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Combat Senses
Shattershield
Detect Enemies Extended
Physical Barrier
Physical Mask
Influence
(36 bp)

Gear:
Power Focus 2
Sustaining Focus 3
Sustaining Focus 3
Mage Sight Goggles
Armor Jacket 8/6
Full FFBA: +6/+2
Chemical Protection 6
Nonconducting 6
Combat Fetish x3
Fake Sin 4 x2
Maglock Passkey 4
Autopicker 6
Cellular Glove Molder 3
Keycard Copier 6
Sequencer 4
Medkit 6
Area Jammer 4
Low Lifestyle
(159,450k/32bp)

Foci Bonding: 8bp

5bp left over for contacts or gear or whatever.

Dicepools:
Dodge: 5/8 with Combat Senses
Soak: 22 ballistic/16 Impact
Drain: 10/12 with fetishes
Spellcasting: 11/ 13 with Power Foci/ 17 with Power Foci and Mentor Spirit and Combat Spec.

Compared to One Man Army, Sustained Firepower is almost a one trick pony. Ideally, he would go into combat with sustaining foci maintaining Improved Reflexes (giving him +2 initiative (12 total) and +2 IP's) and Combat Senses (+3 to dodge and Surprise tests). Additionally, he'd most likely have a Force 5 Improved Invisibility spell up, to give him that juicy -6 "target not visible" modifier. He also has the party trick of bringing up a Physical Barrier if things get too hot, Shattershield allows him to get around without having to drop his sustained spells, and Detect Enemies Extended gives him the ability to achieve tactical superiority. To do damage, he will either overcast or cast multiple spells, as his large combat spell pool allows him to be effective despite splitting his dp. Did someone say 2 F5 Stunbolts a pass? In a pinch, he can throw 2 F10 Stunballs and still (likely) be standing for some serious room clearing. Additionally, he can utilize spirits as a force multiplier ability. His high soak pool means that even if he gets surprised, he can still get up an Improved Initiative spell and be good to go next combat turn.

Oh, and he can live in the woods. He has a secondary function!

[WeaverMount]

Ok let's see if we can get a little focus back on this thread. If are are asking if a mage can out sam a sam, what does it mean to sam, see? Sheesh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously though can we get some actual requirements, because all you think it takes to be a sam is the ability to dish and take damage, * Ball and Improved Reflexes brings all the pain you could want, and some combination of armor, combat sense, physical barrier, concealment, and healing is all the tanking you want. Also how did possession get to be taboo on this thread. It is kind of cheesy, but isn't that the point? That the RAW is is cheesy.

[Fuchs]

For me, a sam means ranged and melee firepower. Anything else is fluid and varies from concept to concept.

[Draco18s]

Also how did possession get to be taboo on this thread. It is kind of cheesy, but isn't that the point? That the RAW is is cheesy.

Because Possession wasn't errata'd with SR4A and Hermit's main claim was that the changes by SR4A make it so that Single Mage Teams (that is, replacing the whole team with one mage) are less viable.

[suppenhuhn]

Because Possession wasn't errata'd with SR4A and Hermit's main claim was that the changes by SR4A make it so that Single Mage Teams (that is, replacing the whole team with one mage) are less viable.

Didn't he actually want to make a possession build?
The point was also not that SR4A improved things, but that many here argue mages couldn't replace other team members.

[ornot]

Ok, here'S my go with a possession mage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ Spoiler ]

Gaylord van Horn, Elven Savant

Metatype : Ork
Magician (Voodoo)

Attributes
Body: 5
Agility: 5
Reaction: 5
Strength: 3
Charisma: 4
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2
Willpower: 5

Edge: 1
Magic: 5
Initiative: 8
Essence: 6


Active Skills
Summoning (Guardian spirits) : 5+2
Binding (Guardian spirits) : 5+2
Assensing : 1
First Aid (Magical drain damage) : 3+2
Spellcasting : 3
Counterspelling : 3
Con : 2
Inflitration : 2
Perception : 2

Knowledge Skills
English : N
Sperethiel : 2
Magic Background (Path of Voodoo) : 3+2
Elven Society : 2
Club Circuit (Elf Clubs) : 2+2
Club Music (Elven Rap) : 2+2
Spirits : 2

Positive Qualities
Adrenaline Surge

Negative Qualities
In Debt
Elf poser

Weapons
FN HAR
300x Normal Ammo
50x SnS
50x Ex-Ex
Hammerli 620S
10x Narcojet Gas Grenade

Armors
Chick clothing
Mortimers Ulysses Line (6/4)
FFBA Half-Body Suit (4/1)

Vehicles
Eurocar Westwind 3K (third hand)

Equipments
Summoning Focus (Guardian) (Rating 3)
Power Focus (Rating 2)
Medkit (Rating 6)
6x Stimulant Patch (Rating 6)
Fake Sin (Rating 4)

Spells
Shapechange
Detect Enemies

Spirits
Guardian Spirit (5 tasks)

Contacts
4 points

Combat Form
16 dice with assault rifle
15 dice to dodge
Body 10
Armor 20/15(10/10 Hardened)
Reaction 10
Initiative 15
IP 2

Chick clothing huh? I guess there are no rules saying shadowrunners can't be crossdressers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I wouldn't permit 'drain damage' as a first aid specialty, but overall, if I was going to make an in your face fighting mage, that's how I'd do it.

Personally though, I think sticking with a high magic materialisation mage is better for replacing the runner team, since he can summon extra team members on an ongoing basis. He does fall down a little on the tech side of things, but magic always has, and there are ways around that.

@Knasser. I understand what you mean about fetishes allowing a mage to be disarmed, but I don't think that's worth a +2 to drain. A personal peeve perhaps.

[paws2sky]

Ok, here'S my go with a possession mage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

So he's an ork voodoo mage... pretending to be an elf fop... he dresses like a pimp and drives a beater of a Eurocar Westwind? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Elven rap!?!?[/seizure]

-paws
(I think I may have to torture my players with this guy some time.)

[Dakka Dakka]

Maybe he wanted to write chic clothing.

[suppenhuhn]

Chick clothing huh? I guess there are no rules saying shadowrunners can't be crossdressers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I wouldn't permit 'drain damage' as a first aid specialty, but overall, if I was going to make an in your face fighting mage, that's how I'd do it.

Personally though, I think sticking with a high magic materialisation mage is better for replacing the runner team, since he can summon extra team members on an ongoing basis. He does fall down a little on the tech side of things, but magic always has, and there are ways around that.

@Knasser. I understand what you mean about fetishes allowing a mage to be disarmed, but I don't think that's worth a +2 to drain. A personal peeve perhaps.

Saw that typo but decided it was more of a freudian slip and let it stay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

With materialisation you have the problem that the mage himself is the weak link, ie when shit hits the fan it might be too late to call on your spirits.
Also higher force spirits have no problem possessing your average grunt (or his corpse).
The former also negate the need of a mind control spell btw.

[InfinityzeN]

Don't forget perception Fuchs. Even if not a sensor Sam, he needs a decent perception DP to spot targets and ambushes.

Min
Good+ Perception
Good+ Ranged Combat
Good+ Melee Combat
Good+ Armored Soak
Good+ IP

[Fuchs]

Don't forget perception Fuchs. Even if not a sensor Sam, he needs a decent perception DP to spot targets and ambushes.

Min
Good+ Perception
Good+ Ranged Combat
Good+ Melee Combat
Good+ Armored Soak
Good+ IP

I'd rate perception as not a priority. Rating one, plus int, plus 3 from coprocessor, plus 3 audio/visual enhancement, and you're decent. Plus astral scouting and assensing, and spirits/watchers scouting helps there.

Armored soak I'd rate as secondary too - it's usually better if you incap the opposition than if you play meatshield for the rest of the team.

[Draco18s]

The point was also not that SR4A improved things, but that many here argue mages couldn't replace other team members.

Mages can replace other rolls, I have no problem with this and don't see why it's an issue. What they can't do (without some serious twinkery, thus not being valid for play) is replacing the whole team. Even then several rolls are subjugated to "secondary dice pools" so the mage can do the task, but isn't replacing a character who specializes in that task (that is, if the specialist isn't there that week the mage can fill in, but isn't going to do nearly as good of a job).

[Kingboy]

-paws
(I think I may have to torture my players with this guy some time.)

I WILL make sure he gets shot in the face/run over repeatedly/sodomized by the Sodomy Bikers (quite possibly in that order) you realize...

[paws2sky]

I WILL make sure he gets shot in the face/run over repeatedly/sodomized by the Sodomy Bikers (quite possibly in that order) you realize...

If you guys didn't, I'd think you weren't paying attention!

Hey! Maybe you could get Kane to leverage his (LOL) go-gang contact. He's been wanting to use that for something useful since he got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

-paws

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

bump

[eidolon]

bump

Bumping threads is not allowed on Dumpshock Forums. If a topic is of interest to people, they will post in it. Thanks.

2. No spamming the forums, and no commercial posts allowed. This includes "bumping" or posting useless content for the purpose of bringing a thread to the top of the forum.

And if you're all wondering why Hermit hasn't posted, have you considered that maybe your collective antagonism over a differing opinion, your mob mentality, and your derision have created an unwanted environment for him (and potentially others)? That perhaps he realized that he didn't have to prove anything to a bunch of faceless people on the internet, especially considering that they aren't in his gaming group?

Lighten up, folks. It's a game.


And the not-pink part of this post is opinion and observation, not mod-speak or interrogative. Just sayin'.

[The Mack]

And if you're all wondering why Hermit hasn't posted, have you considered that maybe your collective antagonism over a differing opinion, your mob mentality, and your derision have created an unwanted environment for him (and potentially others)? That perhaps he realized that he didn't have to prove anything to a bunch of faceless people on the internet, especially considering that they aren't in his gaming group?

Well it was more like collective antagonism over his repeated antagonism.

He was quite, persistent, shall we say in his constant condemnation of all things that is magician. He was relentless in his "assertion" about the complete superiority of magic in the game and how a magician could literally replace an ENTIRE TEAM of runners.

Which he felt the need to post repeatedly throughout the thread.


So there's a lesson to be learned here for everyone really.

[Angier]

As far as I know he is still in the process of creating his ubermage but suffering from some illness.

[knasser]

As far as I know he is still in the process of creating his ubermage but suffering from some illness.

If he's ill, I wish him the best and although things have become a little antagonistic, the challenge was made in a friendly spirit with the aim of disproving a too-common misconception on Dumpshock (to my mind). I'm willing to accept it if I'm wrong, however. Hermit seemed cheerful enough to accept the challenge.

As regards bumping, I have meant to post replies here to the people who have taken the time to post a build. As you can see from the length of my reply to Octopiii, it takes time to do it justice and I've been a bit too busy these past few days to do more than post short comments here on DS. I will get round to this.

K.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

[quote name='eidolon' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:24 AM' post='788463']
Bumping threads is not allowed on Dumpshock Forums. If a topic is of interest to people, they will post in it. Thanks.


My Apologies... Bumped so that I could find it more easily in the morass of entries on the Forums...
And because I thought it was an interesting topic and had nothing to contribute at the time...

[Octopiii]

And if you're all wondering why Hermit hasn't posted, have you considered that maybe your collective antagonism over a differing opinion, your mob mentality, and your derision have created an unwanted environment for him (and potentially others)? That perhaps he realized that he didn't have to prove anything to a bunch of faceless people on the internet, especially considering that they aren't in his gaming group?

"Collective Antagonism": We do not agree wit him, therefore, we should not bother talking to him. Kind of hard to have discourse on those terms.

"mob mentality": If everyone but you thinks that you are wrong... well, it's just possible that you might be wrong.

"derision": What derision? I see several people who have honestly attempted to back Hermit's point up (myself included).

"That perhaps he realized that he didn't have to prove anything to a bunch of faceless people on the internet": You would have a point, except for the fact that he basically crapped all over a thread proclaiming the "brokenness" of magic and then agreed to post an example. Besides, if no one is willing to prove their point, there's really no reason to post at all, no?

[Fuchs]

As far as I am concerned, it's proven that magician characters offer much more options than mundane characters. And in my preferred playstyle - long continuing campaigns - mages become much more powerful too, compared to the capped mundanes.

[The Mack]

As far as I am concerned, it's proven that magician characters offer much more options than mundane characters. And in my preferred playstyle - long continuing campaigns - mages become much more powerful too, compared to the capped mundanes.

And I'm fine with that.

Because mundanes have it significantly easier at character creation.

You can get quite a bit of cyber at the start, or a wide skill set. You'll have an extra 45~90 BP from not having had to purchase MAG+Magician, etc.


So even if mages do become very powerful after a long time, it's still a far cry from 'replacing an entire team'.

[suppenhuhn]

And I'm fine with that.

Because mundanes have it significantly easier at character creation.

You can get quite a bit of cyber at the start, or a wide skill set. You'll have an extra 45~90 BP from not having had to purchase MAG+Magician, etc.


So even if mages do become very powerful after a long time, it's still a far cry from 'replacing an entire team'.

Well, I'm not.

Shadowrun isn't like D&D where starting mages can cast one spell a day and die from goblin farts. (And i'm glad about that)
And it's not like those 45-80 BPs that mages throw at their specialty are in any way wasted at all. In fact magic is the most valuable attribute in the whole game and I find it pretty weird that it also is the only one without cap.

Mundanes on the other hand start the game pretty much at the zenith of their ability considering their main skill(s).
I think they should get more room for improvement.